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Discussion To Sith or not to Sith? -NSA Edition

Discussion in 'Star Wars: New Films - No Spoilers Allowed' started by Legacy Jedi Endordude, Aug 10, 2013.

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Should the Sith return in Episode VII

YES! Once more the Sith will rule the Galaxy! 33 vote(s) 54.1%
NO! He is the chosen one. He will bring balance. 28 vote(s) 45.9%
  1. Jedi Merkurian ST Thread Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

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    What's the Sith ideology?
  2. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    The rule of two, the focus on the Jedi as their enemy, they have an entire culture. Their entire existence is set up in a way to propagate it. Master and Apprentice both as ally and as enemy, ensuring that only the strong survive that relationship. To further the Sith, and the goals of their order.


    The Darkside flows from all life, why should the Sith have a monopoly on it? They are dead and gone as far as the films are concerned. And while it's not impossible to write them into the sequels, I do not favor it.

    Give us new characters, with new viewpoints and new motivations. Sith have been done to death
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Aug 16, 2013
  3. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

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    star 6
    [face_devil]"Me.First." [face_devil]
  4. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    Yes and no. They knowingly look for strong apprentices that they know will one day destroy them. They do this to ensure the strength of the Sith. In it's way, it's selfless. It's self sacrifice for an ideology they view as more important than themselves.

    Otherwise they would not do that
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Aug 16, 2013
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  5. Jedi Merkurian ST Thread Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

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    What is their culture? What are the goals of their order? What information did you use to come to your conclusions?

    I have a thread in Saga (cant link right now) that poses the question, using only movies and their novelizations as a basis, of just what it is that makes a Jedi or Sith.

    Again, Occam's Razor. What is a simpler task for a writer: building upon an already-familiar group, or coming up with something entirely new, with all the requisite exposition?

    Why re-invent the wheel when you dont have to?
    Last edited by Jedi Merkurian, Aug 16, 2013
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  6. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    You don't need to look past the movies. The movies tell you the general outline of what they are. Their rule of two, their focus on exterminating the Jedi and ruling the galaxy as a core goal. Their relationships with each other, as outlined by Sith tradition. Everything the movies say about these characters are based on that tradition. Their traditions are the framework for the character.

    As you probably even know about me, I don't consider the EU a part of the canon anyway.

    And as to a general movie audience, they don't care about the name Sith one way or the other.

    And I don't buy into the idea that creating new an interesting characters is "re-inventing " the wheel. Movies are about characters.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Aug 16, 2013
  7. Jedi Merkurian ST Thread Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

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    At the risk of sounding repetitive, Occam's Razor: have a familiar organization evolve; or create an entirely new, but very similar organization, along with the required exposition?
  8. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    star 4
    Then your preference differs from mine
  9. Jedi Merkurian ST Thread Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

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  10. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    We disagree on that, too

    This really has nothing to do with Occam's Razor, we aren't looking for a likely hypothesis, we're looking for a good narrative.

    Good stories introduce new characters all the time. Is the bar really set so low that creating a new character type is an insurmountable obstacle?
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Aug 16, 2013
  11. Jedi Merkurian ST Thread Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

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    No, not at all. But what you're suggesting is not just a new character plus exposition, but a new character plus exposition, a new organization plus exposition, and exposition as to the differences between this new organization and an already-familiar organization which it strongly resembles. It violates the K.I.S.S. maxim.

    I'll use the PT for a comparison. The story could have gotten further derailed by exposition about what distinguishes a Jedi who leaves the Order to become a well-intentioned extremist and uses powers similar to the Emperor from a Sith. But instead, Count Dooku was a Sith Lord.

    Put another way, you could introduce an entirely new sect of darksider saber-wielders, but why?
    Last edited by Jedi Merkurian, Aug 16, 2013
  12. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

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    "The Sith rely on their passion for their strength. They think inward, only about themselves." -Anakin

    Bevel Lemelisk does not agree.;)
    Jedi Merkurian likes this.
  13. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    Then what else do you call that? They knowingly train an apprentice that they know will kill them in cold blood when the time is right. That is not acting in self interest by any stretch.

    That is not thinking of one's self. The fact that line exists in the movie doesn't mean much to me given what the films actually tells us about how the Sith interact. Those films are filled with holes in logic
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Aug 16, 2013
  14. Jedi Merkurian ST Thread Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

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    The Rule of Two is, IMHO one of the most brlliant-but -misunderstood pieces of "villain psychology" ever. I'll have to go into this more later...
    Last edited by Jedi Merkurian, Aug 16, 2013
  15. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    I don't understand it? Is that what you're hinting at here? Why don't you spell out the part you think I don't get
  16. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

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    "All those who gain power are afraid to lose it."
    kainee and Legacy Jedi Endordude like this.
  17. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    And yet, Sidious trains a man in Anakin that he knows has the potential to kill him. Your quote comes in the context of a story about a man doing just that. Kind of takes the edge off your point.
  18. Jedi Gunny Yahtzee Host

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    And how Palpatine seems willing to die if the right opportunity comes along (i.e. Anakin turns, Luke turns).
  19. Jedi Merkurian ST Thread Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

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    I edited to indicate that I’d go into it when I had a bit more time. Here goes, though:

    Sith Lords are all about being the most powerful there is. So long as a Sith Lord has to be subordinate to anyone else, they are not the most powerful. That’s why they seek galactic domination; they wanna be the top of the heap.

    Why does a Sith Master seek to have an apprentice with the potential to surpass them in abilities? Well, first off, in addition to having the resources of an entire galaxy at your beck and call, nothing says “I am the baddest [censored] in the galaxy!” louder than having the second-baddest [censored] in the galaxy kneel before you.

    Why does a Master condition an apprentice to hate him and want to murder him, and not just “break” the apprentice into an eternal subordinate? To keep himself from going soft. To keep improving. Plus, it’s a giant ego-boost. Think about it: your right-hand man loathes you with every fiber of his being, but does your bidding anyway. How utterly epic is that?

    As far as ever-improving and never going soft, in the mind of a supervillain, nothing weeds out complacency and inspires improvement than the certainty that there is an incredibly powerful being always watching you for signs of weakness, and will straight-up murder you if he ever display any.

    That’s how a Dark Lord of the Sith can be utterly self-interested while at the same time grooming someone to kill him. It boils down to this:

    “I want to be the most powerful being I can be. I never want to rest on my laurels. Ever. How do I make that happen? I want have the most dangerous being to stalk the galaxy at my beck and call. Not just for the lulz (although I ain’t gonna lie, that is pretty awesome), but because he hates me and wants to kill me, otherwise he’s not dangerous. For him to be able to kill me, he has to always be improving himself. How do I not die? By always being that much further ahead of him.”


    There’s no sense of self-sacrifice to the greater good (greater evil?) of the order necessary. That the Sith Order constantly improves is a groovy side-effect.
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  20. Force Smuggler Chosen One

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  21. EHT New Films Manager

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    Agreed, well said @Jedi Merkurian . Having said that, though, in the case of Palpatine at least, I think he used the Rule of Two for Sith Marketing purposes, but I don't think he really believed in it. I don't think he ultimately intended for any of his apprentices to really ever get the better of him.
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  22. Jedi Merkurian ST Thread Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

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    No Sith Lord really believes in the Rule of Two! [face_devil] Not really. Like I said earlier:
    And that's not counting the "second-stringers" they have in the waiting; the "dogs awaiting scraps" alluded to by Bane in Dark Lord.
    Last edited by Jedi Merkurian, Aug 16, 2013
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  23. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    And yet Palpatine makes the prediction that Anakin will one day be more powerful than Sidious or Yoda. There is only one pathway to that, his own death. It's something he knows and willingly pursues anyway. Just as he killed his own master, and his own master did the same before him and on and on.

    They know this system, without fail, will lead to their death.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Aug 16, 2013
  24. Jedi Merkurian ST Thread Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

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    Nope.

    I'd say being a Master isn't about what tricks you can do, though it helps. Being a Master is about having the one who can do all the tricks as your subordinate. Put another way, the Master isn't necessarily the one who wins the arm-wrestling contest; the Master is the one who controls (by whatever means) the one who wins the arm-wrestling contest.

    [IMG]

    "Steel isn't strong, boy. Flesh is stronger! Look up there...at that beautiful girl...come to me , my child!
    *girl walks off catwalk, falls to her death*
    That is strength, boy! THAT is power! What is a sword compared to the hand that wields it?"
    Last edited by Jedi Merkurian, Aug 16, 2013
  25. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    But Palpatine knows that he can't maintain that control forever, eventually the strong will devour the weak. That is what it is to be Sith. Their entire history is based on it. It is the way you become the master in the first place

    He knows this, and still replaces a perfectly useful apprentice with one he knows will one day have the strength to destroy him. In fact, it is that potential that makes Anakin a prize.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Aug 16, 2013