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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Too much use of the Force?

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Tatooine Twilight Twins, May 10, 2014.

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  1. JediMatteus

    JediMatteus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Sep 16, 2008
    yeah im just going to say that if authors were more creative with the use of force powers it would be lots better. But most authors don't know how to write interesting force power descriptions.
     
  2. SgtTimBob

    SgtTimBob Manager Emeritus star 4 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 5, 2014
    I completely agree with the article. The Force is no longer magical or spectacular when it is used in a pedestrian fashion and everyone just kind of accepts it. I also agree that when there's a scene made up entirely of Jedi, at least in the way the prequels did it, it's boring because they all talk in that monotone emotionless pattern. I am kind of hoping there's one or two apprentice Jedi in these films, with some other types of characters for them to interact with. I don't want a story where non Jedi are the exception, otherwise there's nothing special about being a Jedi.
     
  3. TheFoot

    TheFoot Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2011
    I will weigh in. While I think the article written was a little dumb in the point it was trying to make about ANH force being 'explained away' by Han, overall I agree with the sentiment, and get tired of people trying to tell me "Star Wars is about the Jedi and the Force." Even if Lucas himself is the one saying this: I didn't fall in love with Star Wars because it had magic and sword fights. I am one of those that loved the vehicles, battles, massive scope, ships, aliens, robots, and story.

    I mean if we had followed the logic of the PT and how Jedi were matched up to fight Sith dudes and how defeating them in ridiculous fights was the norm, then at the end of ROTJ, instead of lifting Palps up and throwing him into that huge chasm, Vader would have starting shooting his OWN lightning at the Emperor and they would have fought an epic 20 minute battle throwing either other across the room with the force. THIS is the KEY difference. Do you see what I'm saying? How simple it was for Vader to just toss his boss over that railing and into the void? It wasn't some great force feat. It was just a big strong guy subduing someone in the SIMPLEST way possible.

    And it WORKED. It was AMAZING! It was POWERFUL! It all had to do with who he was and what he actually decided to do, and had nothing to do with how he did it or how amazeballs he was with the force.

    I would love to see some kind of real analysis breaking down force powers and saber screen time/instances in the PT vs OT. It would be quite amusing! It's 3 saber duels in the OT vs. 8 in the PT. Not to mention the Jedi using their lightsaber for every situation imaginable.

    The only example you need of unnecessary lightsabers is the first time they are ignited in TPM. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon sense that their ship has been destroyed (or maybe they heard it?), and immediately jump up with their sabers! The gas pumps in and they just decide to put them away....for some reason.

    How much more dramatic it would have been for smoke to clear and the sabers ignite RIGHT before they take out those droids! Sure that's only a few seconds later, but it was a MUCH cooler place to do it! What we get with their saber REACTION at the start is just a tease...and not a very good one.

    But hey it's no biggie, just something going obviously wrong in the first scene of the film. What ELSE could go wrong? :D
     
  4. Blip

    Blip Jedi Master star 1

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    Feb 5, 2004

    THIS! I'm tired of seeing the Force and the Jedi cheapened through over-use. I want the sense of mysticism brought back, and I want the characters to have to strive to solve the obstacles thrown at them, instead of lobbing a plasma sword or pulling things apart with the Force. It's like playing a console game with God Mode enabled: Sure it's fun at first, but it gets damned boring all too quickly. I suspect that those who demand "ALL THE JEDI, and ALL THE FORCE, ALL THE TIME!" have trouble with the concepts of willpower and delayed gratification in the real world...

    And, while I don't want or need every character to be Han Solo, neither do I need to everyone to be monkish non-entities who are about as relatable as a block of stale cheese. (To be fair to the PT, that trend started in ROTJ: The more "Jedi like" Luke became, the more bland he likewise started to turn -- too much serenity doth not an interesting character make.)

    Remember in the OT when talk of the Force, with John Williams' hauntingly wistful themes playing in the background, would send a shiver down your spine? That was when the Force was powerful, mystical; beyond comprehension. Now we've got Mortis and the Midi-freaking-chlorians. Gimme a break.
     
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  5. SgtTimBob

    SgtTimBob Manager Emeritus star 4 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 5, 2014
    I don't think Luke was anything like as bad as the PT Jedi in ROTJ, though. He still showed emotion and compassion, even chiming in with Han's quips when they are being dragged in front of Jabba after the Rancor fight. His use of the Force retains the mystical feel as well, like when he lifts Threepio up in the chair, and William's theme kicks in slowly. I think it had more to do with him simply being a more mature guy by that time, but I see what you are saying and agree to a point.
     
  6. Tatooine Twilight Twins

    Tatooine Twilight Twins Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 1, 2014

    Oh, snap! Now you done it. Them fighting words to some fans on these boards. Watch your back. :)


    Couldn't agree more.
     
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  7. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    I suspect that people who resort to strawmen and ad hominem attacks don't have successful arguments.

    So the problem was that the PT Force wasn't powerful enough? That's weird - I thought it was god mode. So was it too powerful or not powerful enough? Choose one.

    I do remember getting a shiver down my spine when Yoda said those words.

    Midichlorians are not the Force. The Force in the PT is the same Force from the OT ( where it was an energy field ), only now with a will. That makes it no less "mystical". And Force potential was already biologically inherited in the OT, so the role of midichlorians is really nothing new for anyone who didn't skip ROTJ.
     
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  8. SgtTimBob

    SgtTimBob Manager Emeritus star 4 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 5, 2014
    I'd submit that midi chlorians do take away from the mystical aspect of the force. When the force is simply an energy field that is in and around everything and is created by life, that's just about general enough to give it a sense of spirituality and mysticism. But when you introduce this idea that, if you have a certain number of microscopic life forms living inside your cells, that's too specific, too scientific, for it to remain mystical. In the OT I always saw the force as a metaphor for believing in yourself; to me, the midi chlorians shat all over that idea.
     
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  9. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

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    Nov 20, 2012
    Yeah I agree that it needs to be mysterious again, but I fear it may be too late for that.
     
  10. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    ....what? If you have a certain number of microscopic life forms living inside your cells, what then? That this thought appears to simply trail off, unfinished, obscures the fact that the subject has been changed from the nature of the Force itself to the way Force sensitivity works. These are distinct topics.

    Midichlorians are not the Force. You might as well say that Force ability running in the Skywalker family is too specific. But then the OT Force isn't mystical either. You know what they say: if some people have more natural Force aptitude than others for whatever reason, the Force can't be mystical. ( Unless they don't actually say that. )

    In-universe the Force is no metaphor, it's a real thing. The midichlorians are just the mechanism for how members of the Skywalker family are guaranteed high Force potential, something that was covered in the OT. Leia isn't told that she has the potential to use the Force because she "believes in herself". She's told that she has the potential to use the Force because of who she's related to. Luke's importance as "last hope", or equivalently his cited potential to destroy Palpatine, assuredly isn't because he's the only person in the galaxy capable of "believing in himself". That belief appears to be a prerequisite of some sort does not mean that it must be the only prerequisite.
     
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  11. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Belief is only important in how one uses the Force, not their ability to use it. Luke has trouble believing because he's gone twenty three years without seeing what the Jedi were capable of. That's why Yoda says that Luke has to unlearn what he has learned. Meaning he's learned to live life without knowledge of the Force. Now, he's been trained to live life with knowledge of the Force guiding him. Luke's struggle in the OT was due to his limited training. We see what he is capable of in the PT. Obi-wan doesn't struggle in ANH, since a lot of what he did was not much different from his younger years as shown in the PT and TCW.
     
  12. KevinM1

    KevinM1 Jedi Master star 2

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    Nov 15, 2012
    It does make it far less interesting, however. I loathe the idea of the Force having a will. It moves the Force into a monotheistic space that I'm not a fan of at all, and takes away from the plight and perils the characters face because it adds an implicit sense of destiny or fate. "X event is the will of the Force" holds no entertainment value to me. Moreover, it clashes with one of the big themes of the OT, which is the Rebels fighting against and ultimately proving the Emperor's vision wrong. There's a, well, rebellious streak in the OT, one that says that we have free will and can shape our future however we see fit. It's part of the reason why Luke's story is so compelling. He didn't become a Jedi because the Force willed it. He became a Jedi because he chose to become one at the pivotal point in the struggle against the Emperor. Him throwing down his lightsaber in defiance of the Emperor is him literally saying he won't be a puppet to anyone or anything.

    Midichlorians are an unnecessary and useless detail. No one really cared how the Force was strong in some and not in others. All that mattered was that it was, at least in part, hereditary. Much like most of the details in the PT, its inclusion isn't something that makes the settings or characters more interesting. Qui-Gon could have simply sensed Anakin's presence from far away (which would have been a nice nod to Vader feeling Obi-Wan on the Death Star), and given a line about how much power/strength/whatever he felt emanating from the boy ("I've only felt something approaching this in the presence of Yoda. And it's coming from this boy...?"), and not only would the audience have a clear idea of his potential, it would be expressed in a way far more in line with the way the Force had been until that point. Far superior to a blood test and fake microbial lifeform, IMO.
     
  13. SgtTimBob

    SgtTimBob Manager Emeritus star 4 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 5, 2014
    Yea well I just hate the concept of midi chlorians lol. I know they aren't the force, but it just kind of killed the mystic element a lot for me. So I try to not think about it.
     
  14. Vincent Norris

    Vincent Norris Jedi Youngling

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    Jun 25, 2014
    The force as I understand it has no will or power to it, there is no actual physical intelligence behind it, but it lies as another physical existence like a sense that we have in this world, just like image or sound there are people who can interpret that specific instance better or worse than others and thus they are the people who become masters.

    Some of the arguing on this post appears to just be about how much detail was given and that the concept of the midiclorians actually conceptualizing that power though for some people the need to understand everything is there for them to feel they are a part of the world into which the midiclorians are being used to measure the proximity that person can lie to the force. For many of the Jedi council when they are taken into their training or drafted into the dark side though it is through a feeling, especially with something like Sidious sensing that strength out of Anakin, just as he feels his hate and of course the destiny of his destruction.

    For me the PT are the display of a world which is tumbling down into chaos, the first episode is very much a reckoning of the childish side of thinking, where there is the "fun" of Jar Jar and the exploration of the beginnings when so much is an unknown and even the Jedi cannot comprehend the rise of the Sith again, a place into which it appears there is only innocence as the hopes of a child and a rebellious leader - Qui Gon - lead them into a chaotic path of progress which mostly lies in smiles and small cheeky remarks.

    The second is the beginning of the teenage years where a big change comes about and again the panic rises, now for so many the lightsaber is used for the first time but their amateurism is shown powerfully when so many die [though of course a lot of that is thanks to following the impressions of the diplomat's form which was correct for their line of life before the clone wars began]

    As the amount of lightsaber duels rise the war, fear and paranoia are rising as the teenage years really kick in, for a short period of time the entire experience is mired in the force and the lightsabres, for me arcing back all the way to the ancient wars where on both sides there would have been seas of such lights, for those ignorant of the powers behind them a pulsing form of fear which only ever lies in pain.

    This horror in the war and the innocence again of Luke as a new childish form raises the contrast of lightsaber use as Luke uses it to defend himself in learning calmness and two blades conjoin to fight in a combat without athleticism for the will of Ben is dead, there is no passion there, and in this the serene hardness of a Jedi. Whenever the blades begin to really spin and especially in the moments when the force rises to its highest points is only when the sith or another evil opponent is arriving and the destruction has to be called upon though of course to summon that magic and contort objects is not easy, just look at Yoda at the end of his battle with Dooku at the end of AotC.

    Every film is about confronting and overcoming a challenge, in each the end becoming a fight of lightsabers at the very least and usually the force comes into play, showing that now the situation is harsh enough for that kind of utility to come to bear again.

    When Darth Vader chooses to physically kill Sidious that for me is the moment that he has let go of the sith and in that the idea of an allegiance with any aggression in the force whatsoever, meaning that just as when Ben raises his lightsaber up in combat and Yoda rests the peace is achieved for him as well, turning him into the purity of the ghost.

    As Ben states, [i think this has been said already here, but I can't seem to find it, apologies if that is correct] the blaster or any other weapon is not right for a Jedi, they should use a light [possibly connecting to the light of the ghosts or some glow as a signal of the channeling of the force] saber instead meaning that whenever they believe they are in danger, they raise that weapon to bear, though to concentrate on the force alone at times they are seen to withdraw the light as a trap to allow their enemies to come forward.

    Whenever a Jedi does not use a lightsabre he is either in training, Luke, or there must just be a victory whatever the cost e.g. Obi-Wan destroying Grievous.

    Obviously this might not be tied in with the EU, but the forms of saber combat do allocate that for methods such as Niman the force is actually a necessity of combat and it is a way to show their oneness with the force as they can conjure it when they have conquered and accepted combat as something that must come.

    Therefore out of that I think the films will have different levels depending on the tones and the condition of the universe the films are trying to betray though as far as the force goes I would love to see some origin stories a la Yoda's arc in the CW lost series
     
  15. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR

    DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Force Ghost star 5

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    Jun 8, 2002
    Not necessarily...just used in different ways.
     
  16. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Explain.

    The new baddie using Force lightning? Give me a break. Been there! Done that! Dooku using it so casually ruins Palpatine using it in ROTS and ROTJ.
     
  17. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR

    DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Force Ghost star 5

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    Jun 8, 2002
    I mean the same mind controlling powers but in different uses...like influencing someone to kill another or something. Or controlling a bunch of people at the same time and forcing them to commit suicide. Or making a crowd of people be in awe of you. Or even just walking into a room and stopping everybody from moving and talking — much like Professor X did in the X-Men movie. And not just mind powers, telekinetic powers, too. I thought we could have seen more uses of that, as well.

    The Thrawn Trilogy showed a lot of this stuff and I would like to see some of these different uses of the Dark Side performed, too. I think it was the one thing that the Prequels sort of lacked. Instead of showing how Palpatine was able to influence so many bootlickers, we were instead bombarded with too much lightsaber action that made the Jedi and Sith seem nothing more than a bunch of warriors.
     
  18. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Not really, no. But I guess that's what you meant by "implicit"...

    That makes no sense at all. How does proving the Emperor's vision wrong clash with the will of the Force?

    And where exactly do you get the idea that the PT says "we don't have free will"? That's fan invention, not anything promoted by the actual films, and it's outright contradicted by Lucas' own words.

    I wonder if Anakin similarly chose to become a Jedi. Unfortunately, if it's in a film that annoyed people, it probably doesn't count.

    It's interesting that you seem to know what everyone cared about, somehow. Is this some kind of X-Men thing?

    You can't see the difference? Vader had a history with Obi-Wan.

    Midichlorians are not the Force. Midichlorians don't change anything about the way "the Force had been". The issue is Force potential, which you admitted was at least partly hereditary. Thus, a hereditary transference of midichlorian count is in line with what little we originally knew of Force potential.
     
  19. SgtTimBob

    SgtTimBob Manager Emeritus star 4 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 5, 2014
    Midi chlorians still suck, though. In my opinion. :D
     
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  20. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Nothing was messed up by introducing the Midichlorians. It gave a good measure of Anakin's potential and was the means by which Palpatine turned Anakin to the dark side.

    We also get into this thing of what are Midichlorians, how they work which advances a little bit of the story of the Force, and how does the Force work, how we come to know the Force which is part of Anakin’s training in learning to become a Jedi. And take the idea of the Force one step further. The Midchlorians are kind of a side issue. Not in a sort of spiritual, metaphysical part of the Force, but the more practical, biological, physical part of the Force, or how we come to know the Force, which has to do really with the genetics of why some people have more in tune to the Force than others."

    --George Lucas, Star Wars-The Phantom Menace: The Annotated Screenplays, 1999.


    "It was a virgin birth in an ecosystem of symbiotic relationships. It means that between the Force, which is sort of a life force, and reality, the connectors between these two things are what we call Midichlorians. They're kind of based on mitochondria, which are a completely different animal, that live inside every single cell and allow it to live, allow it to reproduce, allow life to exist. They also, in their own way, communicate with the Force itself. The more you have, the more your cells are able to speak intuitively to the Force itself and use the powers of the Force. Ultimately, I would say the Force itself created Anakin. I don't want to get into specific terms of labeling things to make it one religion or another, but basically that's one of the foundations of the hero's journey."

    --George Lucas, Feburary 2005 issue of Vanity Fair, page 117.

    "There is a hint in the movie that there was a Sith lord who had the power to create life. But it's left unsaid: Is Anakin a product of a super-Sith who influenced the Midichlorians to create him, or is he simply created by the Midichlorians to bring forth a prophecy, or was he created by the Force through the Midichlorians? It's left up to the audience to decide. How he was born ultimately has no relationship to how he dies, because in the end, the prophecy is true: Balance comes back to the Force."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stone Magazine, 2005.


    It also fits within a large theme of the Saga. That of symbiosis and cancer.

    "I would like to see our society mature, and become more rational and more knowledge-based, less emotion-based. I'd like to see education play a larger role in our daily lives, have people come to a larger understanding—a “bigger picture” understanding—of how we fit into the world, and how we fit into the universe. Not necessarily thinking of ourselves, but thinking of others.

    Whether we're going to accomplish this, I'm not sure. Obviously, people have a lot of different dreams of where America should be, and where it should fit into things. Obviously, very few of them are compatible, and very few of them are very compatible with the laws of nature. Human nature means battling constantly between being completely self-absorbed and trying to be a communal creature. Nature makes you a communal creature. The ultimate single-minded, self-centered creature is a cancer cell. And mostly, we're not made up of cancer cells.

    If you put that notion on a larger scale, you have to understand that it's a very cooperative world, not only with the environment, with but our fellow human beings. If you do not cooperate, if you do not work together to keep the entire organism going, the whole thing dies, and everybody dies with it. That's a law of nature, and it's existed forever. We're one of the very few creatures that has a choice, and can intellectualize the process.

    Most organisms either adapt and become part of the system, or get wiped out. The only thing we have to adapt to the system with is our brain. If we don't use it, and we don't adapt fast enough, we won't survive."

    --George Lucas, Academy of Achievement Interview, 1999

    "One of the main themes in the film is having organisms realize that they must live together, and that they must live together for mutual advantage—not just humans but all living things—and everything in the galaxy is part of a greater whole."

    --George Lucas, “The Mythology of Star Wars,” Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth DVD, 2000


    "The Emperor was trying to get rid of Vader, and Vader was trying to get rid of the Emperor. And that is the antithesis of a symbiotic relationship, in which if you do that, you become cancer, and you eventually kill the host, and everything dies."

    --George Lucas, Bill Moyers Time Magazine Interview; 1999.


    "The dark side is always there. It is experienced daily by people. It is like a huge cancer, alive, festering—both a reminder of a moral state and, at the same time, symptom and symbol of a very sick society."

    --George Lucas, “The Mythology of Star Wars,” Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth DVD, 2001
     
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  21. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    The only thing I'm desensitized to is these same boring old articles which are basically the same old thing that being that the OT was so wonderful and perfect and everything it did was great and damn those PT movies because they should have done it EXACTLY THE SAME.

    It's like the nonsensical idea that the PT "ruins" the "surprise" that Vader is Anakin. If you are so wrapped up in the films the way you originally saw them and that is the way they must be then you cut yourself off from all sorts of story possibilities.

    It's find the people who have this attitude amazing. They actually think that Lucas actually was making mistakes and didn't realize what he was doing. Yeah because a story telling genius think George Lucas wasn't paying attention to the movies he made. He knew exactly what it was he was doing. If you don't like it fine but at the very least try to understand why he did it.

    The thing is though is that Lucas at once the biggest Star Wars fan ever but at the same time he isn't precious about it. He always was changing the story from movie to movie and in the movies themselves.

    People who decry the "demystification" of the Force in the PT don't seem to understand that this was not a mistake but a totally deliberate choice. They also don't seem to understand that the PT is BEFORE the OT.

    Of course the Force is not going to be near as mysterious when you have a Jedi order that's been around for thousands of years and they shockingly have looked into why certain beings have a greater connection to the Force than others. If it was that easy then in a vast universe there wouldn't be merely thousands of Force users but billions.

    The MC's and the prophecy were created for specific story purposes to get a too old at 9 Anakin into the Jedi order and to make him one of the most important events in Jedi history. He can't just be another guy. If you really want to blame someone then it's Alec Guinness because his impact on Lucas as to how the Jedi would behave was created by him. Lucas had various ideas on how to make the Jedi order but the pull of Guiness' Obi-Wan was so strong that he had to match young Obi-Wan to that and that informed the way the Jedi were to be based. This is the same reason why Revenge became Return and why the ending of said film (Luke throws down his Lightsaber) is the basis for what the Jedi should be. So in turn the PT had to be about the Jedi being tricked so that instead of not fighting (wars don't make one great) they are put into a position to fight and fight and fight and it doesn't work out well for them.

    I find if anything I find the Force far more mysterious that it ever was because of the MC's and the PT. It's not just some inert mystery anymore but actually asks you to question what really is the will of the Force and what is going on.

    It's like the prophecy. We are never told it only what people make of it.
     
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  22. SgtTimBob

    SgtTimBob Manager Emeritus star 4 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 5, 2014
    I don't think Lucas didn't know what he was doing, or made mistakes as such. I just happen to dislike what he came up with. Which is fine, it's my own personal take on a subjective topic.

    The original films (though somewhat altered) still exist, and the prequels are not necessary to one's enjoyment or understanding of them, so it's possible to mostly ignore them if they weren't to one's taste. Though I still reserve the right to be a bit disappointed with the direction he took them in.
     
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  23. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Really, when you think about it, the Jedi being more of a focus since this is in their prime and during their twilight is how it would be. Really, when you think about it, they would be more active than an old Obi-wan and a novice Luke, who is half trained.
     
  24. Andy Wylde

    Andy Wylde Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 26, 2014
    Like, if they can predict blaster bolts coming at them in split seconds how come they can't predict everything?[/quote]

    The use of the force is exhausting on the mind and body. Therefore, to use it to predict things all the time, or to do anything that requires force use for a long period, is not possible.[/quote]
    Always in motion the future is, difficult to see. Yoda ESB
     
  25. Skaddix

    Skaddix Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2012
    Yes it use to be more mystical, I am not a fan of midichlorians myself that said If the fight scenes were like the OT in the PT, I would have been outraged. Not to say I liked the incessant twirling and backflipping but the OT lightsaber combat was in no way up to modern fight scene standards.
     
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