Topic for discussion: Clone or Storm Troopers?

Discussion in 'Santa Cruz, CA' started by DarkLordSid, Jan 24, 2006.

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  1. DarkLordSid Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2004
    star 4
    I read part of a blog on the Starwars.com site and it raised an interesting question.

    Basically, which do you feel is a more effective combat unit, Clone Trooper or Storm Trooper, and why?


    I'll put my own response in a separate post, it's a bit of a dissertation and I want all of you to have the chance to state your opinions as well.

    Here's the link to the blog site if you are interested:

    http://blogs.starwars.com/www_blogs_starwars_com-bl46-01/18

  2. Kai_Vandekar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2005
    star 4
    My ad hoc comment, with no real thinking behind it:

    When clone troopers are led by good, creative-thinking commanders, they're probably amazingly formidable. However, as they're decanted without a huge amount of independent or creative-thinking ability, their main effectiveness is in their unit cohesion. But to put that to good use, you need good leaders.

    Storm troopers seem to be a mix of either various clone lines (that was developed in a recent work of fiction in the fan magazine), or a mix of clones and normal human recruits. I suspect this means that while their ability to work in perfect synchronization might suffer a bit, they might benefit from the variations among individuals and be able to cope with rapidly changing conditions in a battle in a way the clone troopers are not so adept at.

    - Kai
  3. Master--Kenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2003
    star 4
    Wow! Kai!

    Couldn't have said it better myself. I agree with the above. =D=
  4. DarkLordSid Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2004
    star 4
    Although I do strongly agree with Kai on leadership making a substantial difference, I feel that the Storm Troopers are not up to par with their counterparts for other reasons as well.

    1.) Problems in the cloning process

    I feel the Storm Trooper variation, derived from the Clone troopers, are inferior partly due to the cloning process itself. With Jango dead on Geonosis, the original source for the genetic material to manufacturer clones vanished.

    Sure Boba was still around, but he didn?t seem to inclined to work with the folks that basically left Jango hanging (Did you see hordes of Camino troops protecting his escape? Nope, they were pretty much hiding under their desks while all this gunfire took place on their landing pad, weren?t they?)

    So, when they ran out of material from the original, they would have been forced to take some from a clone, which means that the spirit and independence of the original would not be available. True they manufactured the clones to be obedient and docile towards their master, but now that?s what they START with. Along with that now inherent alteration might come other non detectable flaws which they would be stuck with.

    Also consider what happens when you make a copy of a copy of a copy. You?ll notice that the quality degrades considerably. Every successive iteration becomes dimmer or more clouded than the last. By the time of ANH the Storms may not have been entirely playing with a full deck, so to speak.

    In addition, with the massive numbers lost in the Clone Wars and the replacements needed more urgently, they might have been brewed up a lot faster as well, and as any cook typist, production line operator, manufacturer, etc. knows increasing speed without new equipment or processes = higher output but also higher opportunity for errors.

    I?ve heard that in Battlegrounds II Geonosis defected from the Empire (prior to ANH). This would have removed the primary reliable source for Clone Troopers. Although there may be other cloners, the Caminoians were Master Artisans, or as Dex put it, ?Damn good ones? and the loss of this resource would have been devastating to the Empire. Other sources would have had to be found, but again without the original genetic ?source code? of Jango, they too would have been forced to work with copies as well.

    Further, the secret Pre Clone War Caminoan operation to produce huge numbers of clones was very efficient and effective, more so than later because at that time there did not seem to be any significant force or party which had any issue with them. Although the Trade Federation might later have been prevented from attacking and disrupting the source of the clones by Sidious?s intervention, there would be no such diversion of enemies of the production operation in later days. The rebellion would no doubt have been trying to locate and destroy the source for the troops, hamper their production or a least sabotaging the process.

    I have other reasons that I'll detail later, but this one is the primary one that was rambling around my head. Now, some of this is supposition and indirect logical analysis, so as Dennis Miller says, "That's my opinion, I could be wrong".

  5. Kai_Vandekar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2005
    star 4
    So, when they ran out of material from the original, they would have been forced to take some from a clone, which means that the spirit and independence of the original would not be available. True they manufactured the clones to be obedient and docile towards their master, but now that?s what they START with. Along with that now inherent alteration might come other non detectable flaws which they would be stuck with.


    This is an interesting theory, but so far as I can tell, has not been borne out in canonical or semi-canonical sources (let me know if I've missed something...it's very possible). The fiction I've read, including in the current Star Wars Insider, talks about new clone lines being formed, rather than the Imperial cloners attempting to clone new troops using already existing clone-stock. The fiction I'm referring to shows Vader and the Emperor watching over testing of two possible clone-line sources--a Dark Jedi, and an Imperial officer. They've cloned a few up and are putting the new clones through their paces to see what line(s) should be employed in new generations of troopers. So, clearly, they're suffering for lack of a Jango.

    I guess, though, it's more what you think makes a "good" soldier. While the clone troopers were, I'm sure, superior troops in a number of respects, I could see how the Empire could, almost by mistake, benefit by having some hybrid vitality going on with having troops either from various clone-lines or by having some clones and some recruits. You do benefit from having a little more variation in problem-solving going on, especially in environments on the ground, where situations could shift rapidly, as in guerilla sorts of warfare.

    Of course, one of the things to contend with is that the movie stormtroopers were such lousy shots, and the clone troopers in the sequels benefitted from being, well, CGI. I don't think it's entirely fair, however, to assume that the stormtroopers just weren't up to snuff due to that.

    I'd say each set of troops has its strengths. For instance, I could see the clone trooper efficiency going DOWN after they turned on their Jedi commanders, just because the Jedi (we can at least hope) led the troops with not only military skill, but also innovation and instinct buttressed by their ability to touch and use the Force in their decision-making. Without that sort of Force-driven battle intuition to guide them, who knows but that they might have really lost an edge?

    Interesting discussion!
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