TOS Question, Help Needed - "Terror From Beyond the Rim"

The thing that has always bothered me about the "Terror From Beyond the Rim" essay dated Aug 17, 2000 was it's statement regarding the Nagai. The actual TOS statement on it is:

"Although presented as threats from beyond the galaxy, subsequent books revealed that both the Nagai and the Tofs were in actuality from previously uncharted star clusters."

So, my question to all of the SW knowledge-base is "What subsequent books published prior to Aug. 17, 2000 revealed that both the Nagai and the Tofs were in actuality from previously uncharted star clusters."

Key point of the TOS essay is also that it's plural - "books," meaning more than one book prior to the essay has revealed the Tofs and Nagai were "in actuality from previous unchartered star clusters."

However, the recent Nagai/Tof renaissance has been a recent phenomenon, beginning with Star Wars Gamer #1 from around Nov. 2000, with the TOS "first look" coming well after the above essay, on Aug 26, 2000.

So, no BS, no agendas, no nit-picking of dates, no discussion of what's canon. Does anyone have any idea which "books" even covered the Nagai/Tofs at all in recent years prior to Aug. 2000!?!

(Yes, I actually pretty much know the answer, but I want to know if other people do as well.)

 

L-I-E-S

 

Well, there is always that 'canon bible' that they keep in the Ranch, that will probably never be seen by our eyes. So I can't confirm/deny that it was originally written in there, but I can say that that is what secrets of SOTE said they did with that book. In the book it said that LFL write notes and fixes into the margin of the 'canon' bible to show how most stories fit in the existing continuity, used as a resource notes for writing other books.

Beyond that I can't think of any other book that may have mentioned it. Unless LFL keeps several notebooks worth of information at the ranch that mention that sort of 'retro fix'.

 

Genghis and Val, have we not already discussed this?

 

Valiento's "Canon Bible" should remain unseen for this reason . . . .

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Yun-Yuzzhan is actually none other than that bumbling gungan, Jar Jar Binks. It is his his secrets and beliefs which can be found past the 8th cortex. When Nem Yim breaks it, she will realize that Jar Jar is a symbol of racial unity and that the Yuzzhan Vong really shouldn't be fighting the Jedi and NR and should instead life in peace. She can not do this alone, so she has to reincarnate Anakin Solo, who meets Yun-Yuzzhan (Jar Jar Binks) and fast become friends. "Mesa once knews an Ani" says Yun Yuzzhan. The secrets of Anakin Skywalker are revealed to the next generation, Luke and Leia find out about their mother and such. And, naturally, the next grand story arch from Del Ray will be the NEW adventures of super reincarnated Anakin Solo and Jar Jar Binks (who is Yun-Yuzzhan)

 

Hey Genghis12!

I don't have a pinpoint answer for you either - so I'll offer some speculation that you've probably already drawn yourself.

1) There are two WEG published books that immediately come to mind referencing the Nagai. The first is the Truce at Bakura Sourcebook and the second, I believe, is Wretched Hives of Scum and Villainy (I might have to double check the latter). [Did one of the WEG RPG Rulebooks - perhaps 2nd Edition, Revised and Expanded - say something about the Nagai as well???)

2) As Val mentioned, some products may have crossed roads (and edits) that we will never see - but perhaps "eyes" at Skywalker Ranch have. For example, we have no idea what Dan Wallace & Kevin Anderson and/or Ann Margaret Lewis had planned for The Essential Chronology OR The Essential Guide to Aliens that "might" have made reference to the Nagai. BY SPECULATION ONLY, it's possible, although the likelihood is UNKNOWN - that these respective authors (among others) had their own theories as to the Nagai and their origins - but ONLY LFL knows what those "theories" are. However, once in a while those theories may see life again, albeit in a different form.

3) There are some "devious dudes" out there - I'm always wary of what the continuity experts have snuck in with obscure throwaway lines in books and magazines like the Star Wars Adventure Journal, Star Wars Galaxy Magazine, Star Wars Galaxy Collector, Star Wars Gamer, etc.

4) I think there's another Nagai reference in Star Wars Gamer # 9 regarding Modell Sector. It's a piece co-written with Dan Wallace. I'm sorry, but I don't remember the full credits for that piece and/or the content of the Nagai reference(s).

5) This OFTEN comes back to bite me, but there are always obscure magazine articles that seem to pop up with a new SW Detail. For example, I've been going through some Amazing Stories (Wizards of the Coast) back issues and reviewing SW oriented pieces, and I could swear I'm coming across author name(s) associated with the NJO that I've NEVER heard associated with the NJO before. Or going through Star Wars Insiders #'s 26-28, (or thereabouts), which has some OUTSTANDING indexing and obscure details on THE TALES OF THE JEDI in an 3 part piece written by Bob Cooper. With the Marvel SW, who knows what other fiction and/or interviews might be out there on the Nagai??? (Amazing Heroes? Marvel Age? Comics Scene????)

6) If we're talking TOS, then I'm assuming we're talking continuity heavy weights like Pablo Hidalgo and Leland Chee, etc. Thus, we've got the creme of the crop with all the LFL resources they find relevant at their disposal, including continuity expert contacts should they choose to go that route - eesh!!! Anybody's fallable, but if they want to back it up the "books" wordchoice, then I'm sure they could . . .

7) Aside, and personally, although there is a split amongst fans and continuity experts regarding the true origins of the Nagai - I actually prefer the more recent theory that they are "intra-galactic." I tend to favor the theory that crossing the galaxies is an extremely difficult thing to do - and perhaps, if the Nagai and Toffs (sp?) had that cabability - they would have been a more serious threat to the Alliance and Remmants of the Empire than they ultimately turned out to be. Then again, without Jo Duffy and the writers at Marvel being able to complete that storyline - in perhaps the manner that they had originally intended - (speculation b/c that storyline seemed prematurely rushed to me!!!) - we might NOT ever know WHAT THE NAGAI were ultimately destined to do. ANOTHER ASIDE, PERSONALLY, I WOULD LOVE TO SEE DHC's STAR WARS TALES BRING BACK JO DUFFY, ASSUMING SHE'S/HE'S STILL WORKING IN THIS BUSINESS, TO REVISIT THE NAGAI & LUMIYA.

Don't know if the above means anything to you, but for whatever insights may exist . . .

 

I think there's another Nagai reference in Star Wars Gamer # 9 regarding Modell Sector. It's a piece co-written with Dan Wallace. I'm sorry, but I don't remember the full credits for that piece and/or the content of the Nagai reference(s).

I have it right in front of me, Ana. Its nothing much or special, just saying that the Allience left the outpost on Endor when the invasion begun.

 

Chissdude,
No we haven't discussed this before. The actual TOS statement was ignored and what was discussed was something different. What was disscussed (and taken incorrectly) at face value was "TOS said XXX is now YYY." When in reality TOS said "AAA said that XXX is now YYY." I'm looking for what "AAA" is.

TOS says some unnamed books stated something.

However, those books don't seem to exist.

I don't need to point out that Val's "mystery 'bible'" can be used to explain away anything. Don't like TOS use of "latest" for example, because you think there's an even later source - well heck, the latest could exist in some fictitious "bible" that we'll never get to see. I'm not looking for speculative sources.

I just want someone to tell me what books prior to Aug. 17 reveal the Nagai/Tofs to be something different from what they've been portrayed as earlier as TOS suggests.

It seems however, that it's impossible to do so.

EDIT: Ana, yeah, the two main books that come to mind are TaB and WHoS&V, neither of which have what TOS claims. In fact, there's a third, SWRPG 2nd R+E also makes reference of the events surrounding the Nagai invasion as well in its timeline summary. Again, that doesn't have anything that TOS claims either.

 

The only subsequent books that could be construed to refer to them are ones that have vague references to Chiss combatants.

 

When the NJO books came out, with the Yuzzan Vong being the first extragalactic invaders, the official site may have decided that it meant that made the Toff and Nagai intergalactic.

TC

 

G12... I dont think there are any books unless it is a WEG Galaxy Guide.... can you PM me your answer please?

 

For the sake of curiousity, I took a side break yesterday just to look around and pull some sites.

As a sidenote, also keep in mind, if you talk to some of the writers, you'll find many of the books and articles (i.e., manuscripts, drafts, etc.) that are published have PROBABLY been bouncing around between licensee editors, LFL editors and the writer(s) in excess of 6 months, MINIMUM, before being published. Note, since we're talking TOS, they do have a rather distinct advantage on the public at large.

1) Wretched Hives of Scum & Villainy, by Paul Danner, WEG 1997 @ 38:

"Unknown to all around him, [Lusubrin "Brin" T'shkali] is a Nagai, a humanoid warrior race from a remote star cluster beyond the borders of the Empire." (38)

2) Star Wars Gamer # 1, "The University of Sambra Guide to Intelligent Life: The Marvel Series" by Rich Handley & Joe Bongiorno, Wizards of the Coast @ 54-67:

"[The Nagai] claimed to be from another galaxy, but considering the distance involved, Alliance analysts determined that they must hail from the Unknown Regions and lied about thier origins to keep their homeworld hidden." (63)

"Nagai Homeworld: Nagi. Once believed to be from a separate galaxy, it has been discovered that their system exists within one of the far distant wisps on the very edge of the galaxy." (63)

3) The Essential Guide to Alien Species, by Ann Margaret Lewis, Del Rey 2001 @ 170.

"The Nagai once claimed to be from another galaxy, but most believe that their homeworld is in the Unknown Regions and that they spead this misinformation to other species to keep their homeworld a secret." (170)

I pretty much stopped my search after looking at the above, along with Truce at Bakura Sourcebook; Star Wars Roleplaying Game Rulebook, 2nd, R & E; Essential Chronology; some unofficial book by Ted Edwards, (???); along with some magazine articles and interview pieces. Most other sources that I consulted ONLY refer to the "Nagai invasion" without stating "WHERE" that invasion is originating from.

I didn't check the primary sources, i.e., the Marvel Comics. I remember Genghis12 previously pointed out to me the Bey comments learned from a secondary source/speaker, (his Mom?), regarding the Nagai's extra-galactic origins. I do think the TOS info and all the other recent info still reconcile with the Bey statements. On its surface, I know that sounds funny . . . but the Bey statements are first, hearsay statements; second, the Tof oppressors within the Marvel Comics PLUS the newer material BOTH provide a motive for that Nagai "misinformation"; third, there are many many examples of this type of "misinformation" in the SWEU, (Fallanasi, Rebel Alliance Safeworlds, Shadow Ports, Shada Dukal's people, etc. etc.) and fourth, PERSONALLY, I find it more reasonable that the Nagai are "intragalactic."

Within the spirit of the call of the question, I don't want this to turn into a "debate" - I'm also stopping my comments on this topic with this post.

Plus, I truly believe reasonable minds can differ. I just wanted to supplement my personal views with the recent take on the Nagai info. I've always enjoyed alternate theories and takes, especially when those theories/takes reasonably explore something that hadn't even occurred to me!!!

Hope the above helps!!!

 

Thanks Ana, but Im pretty sure this will remain in a standoff, with respect to everyone vs. Genghis.

 

Ok, since one books says they are from a star cluster I looked up it's meaning and found this: Star Clusters

Is it me or does it seem to say star clusters "can be"intragalactic astronomical bodies?

Maybe that is what the author of the article on the official site read from/into the quote from the Danner's book?

 

Ana...
Thank you for taking the time to research the matter. I have to note that essentially you have arrived at the same conclusion I have - the books referred to by TOS simply do not exist.

I respect that we can agree to disagree.

Val...
Intragalactic!?! ? Look at the definitions of clusters you posted...

Globular - "They populate the halo or bulge of the Milky Way and other galaxies..."

Open (or galactic) - "and to continue to orbit the galaxy through the disk..." I.e. circling the galaxy, it has to be outside. That is, this implies an open star cluster is like an electron - it orbits a neutron. An electron is not a neutron or part of a neutron, just like in this case an open cluster is not part of the galaxy, but orbits the galaxy.

The term "Star cluster" certainly implies extragalactic as much as anything. And its use would support the original source on the Nagai/TOfs.

However, I would like this thread to be free of debate on the canonicity of the matter, and simply focus it strictly on the matter...

Which sources prior to Aug. 17, 2000 reveal the Nagai to be from the UR.

Currently, even with all these posts, the answer is still... none. They don't seem to exist.

 

And Genghis connects with a right!

 

That's not helping much, 'dude.

 

Like I trying to say before, perhaps the author of the article on TOS read into the meaning of word star cluster for article as meaning an intragalactic star cluster.

Beyond for that matter the ones that circle a galaxy while not directly connected are still connected and not seperate galaxies. So in that case if someone said nagai were from an open star cluster that doesn't make them from a seperate galaxy. As well the article talks about how open clusters look like spiral arms around the disk. "Milky Way and other galaxies as diffuse nebulae, notably spiral arms in disk galaxies, and irregular galaxies"

Similer to how other authors read into comments from other authors in various ways they want to, to create comments or new ideas(like instance of emperor's hands growing outside zahn's original intention).

 

However, the point remains that no matter how you perceive the definition of "star cluster," you still can't reach the conclusion TOS reached.

That is, regardless of the extra- or inter- galactic interpretation of "star cluster," it still doesn't "reveal them to be from the Unexplored Regions."

I accept that it revealed them to be from outside the boundaries of the Empire. That's a true statement. There's no way one could construe that to mean what TOS construed it to mean.

 

Genghis, why do you always refer to the UR as the "Unexplored Reason", is this the correct term?

 

"Milky Way and other galaxies as diffuse nebulae, notably spiral arms in disk galaxies, and irregular galaxies"

Note that open cluster is a spiral arm. Unknown regions fall under those spiral arms. Like you said they are not intragalactic in your opinion correct?

 

Val...
"notably" - to a high degree, not a total degree.

Chissdude...
"Genghis, why do you always refer to the UR as the "Unexplored Reason", is this the correct term?"

'Dude, you may correct when referring to this TOS application of the UR title. That is I'd agree it means "Unexplored Reason" as reason definitely was not explored in the writing of it.

 

Let Grenghis think whatever. He can believe they're from outside the galaxy and we can believe they're from the UR. No use fighting about it.

 

"Val...
"notably" - to a high degree, not a total degree."

Exactly...

What it means is, if a spiral arm is seen in a galaxy it's an "open star cluster".

But not all open star clusters look like spiral arms, just to a higher degree that is the case that many do turn out to be spiral arms rather than however else may seem to look like.

 

Exactly, Matt.

In fact, I'd like to keep away from any discussion about that whole issue.

What I'm interested in finding is simply whether or not anyone knows of books around before the essay that revealed them to be from the Unexplored Regions.

Is Val submitting WHoS&V as one of those books? I don't know. But, what we do know is that book does not reveal the Nagai/Tofs to be from the UR, so it doesn't satisfy the question.

That doesn't have anything to do with the UR in the Nagai entry at all, much less reveal anything about any connection between the two. Next book...

And I have to take issue with the statement...
"But not all open star clusters look like spiral arms, just to a higher degree that is the case that many do turn out to be spiral arms rather than however else may seem to look like."

There's no implication there at all. In fact, it seems that the majority of star clusters seem to be globular anyway...

"Most other galaxies have globular cluster systems as well, in some cases (e.g., for M87) containing several thousands of globulars!"

Contrasted with the more limited description of open being around as much as diffuse nebulae (although I have no idea how often those turn up in other galaxies).

And how's this for the kicker (damn, I know I said I didn't want discussion)...
"They are believed to originate from large cosmic gas/dust clouds in the Milky Way...[/i]"

Therefore, if you're suggesting that the Nagai originated in an open star cluster, then one is generally suggesting they originated in the Milky Way, a galaxy which is far, far away from the GFFA. Again, the "open star cluster" definition also supports the original source.