TPM a critical darling in France?

I was looking at the web site for the new documentary The People Vs. George Lucas and came across this:

The thing that amazes me the most, in our travels of late, is that it?s really very hard to find anyone willing to step up and tell me that millions of fans can be wrong, and that Episode One is, in fact, a masterpiece. Anyone, that is, except for kids and French scholars. We went to Paris last year to interview Pierre Berthomieu (author of STAR WARS: LE REBELLE ET L?EMPEREUR) and several well-known intellectuals and film critics. With the exception of one, all seemed to agree on one thing: the prequels are far more accomplished films than STAR WARS, EMPIRE or JEDI. I mean, I?ve talked to a small minority of people out there who claim that they like the prequels better (they haven?t really thought about it much?they just like them better, and that?s cool), but these French scholars really tell you why they?re better films, and make a fascinating intellectual argument in their defense!

I contacted the guy who made the documentary, and he told me that only a snippet of the Barthomieu interview is shown in the documentary, but he might include some materials in the DVD when it's released. I have no intention of seeing this documentary as the clips from it I have seen have been almost impressively whiny (I can get the same thing for free by going to a comic book shop and talking to anyone with a goatee), but I really would like to know more about these French guys. Is this true? Is TPM really that highly regarded in France? I found Barthomieu's review of TPM and ran it through Google translate, which enabled me to sort of understand the gist of the article, but I was unable to find anything that had been properly translated. However, I really want to hear what these guys have to say. Does anyone here know anything about this?

Please refrain from making any "dur hurr hurr well the French like Jerry Lewis so what does that tell you, hyuk" comments.

 

Well, the French did codify Auteur Theory and Cinema Du Look, which emphasize the almost dictatorial primacy of the director in filmmaking, and style over substance, respectively. It's not hard to understand why critics in France would be more receptive to a film that is the vision of one creative force that emphasizes visual stimulation over classical filmmaking structure such as character development or dialogue.

Plus, Americans, stereotype or not, practically define "Rated M for Manly" and "Darker and Edgier." We like the gritty stuff, which might not be as popular in Europe or Japan. This, honestly, is a case of different cultural norms playing into how audiences view films.

 

It's a bit like the way that Gerard Depardieu is considered a sex symbol in that country. I know it's a Jerry Lewis, but y'know, it illustrates the point.

 

Thanks for the feedback; those are really interesting points. I'd never heard of Cinema du Look, so I'll read up on that. I'm guessing that the French critics probably like how TPM "subverts" everything as well.

Another thing that occurred to me is that bad dialogue might be less noticeable if it's a foreign language unless you are very well-versed in that language. Or perhaps the dubbed voice actors are superior to the actual actors (though it seems unlikely that "scholars" would base their opinions on dubbed films, but who knows).

What I'd really like to hear is the "fascinating intellectual defense" alluded to on the web site.

As for Depardiue - it's maybe not so weird. I've heard a couple of American women say he's ruggedly handsome and manly and whatever. I don't really see it (I think he looks like a giant Smurf), but I'm not a woman.

 

Sadly, it's rare for me to find an American intellectual engage any of the Star Wars films. An excerpt from Dan Schneider's THX-1138 review leads me to wonder what we'd hear:

How could a man that created a terrific film like THX 1138, which was a scathing criticism of group think, consumerism, and state control, be the same person who has spent the last thirty years churning out junk food-like commercials for toys under the guise of film, laced with a poisonous touch of Joseph Campbellian charlatanry? And, when I condemn the whole Star Wars franchise I do not limit it to the second trilogy of films, which, having just recently watched the final film, is significantly better than the grossly overrated and puerile Flash Gordon wannabe first trilogy. The fact is that while the second trilogy occasionally scratches mediocrity, the first trilogy has aged so poorly that even its camp factor is wan.

More at:

http://www.cosmoetica.com/B585-DES506.htm

 

That fella needs to watch Flash Gordon again before he comments on the production values of the original trilogy, or at least ANH and TESB.

 

I don't agree with this guy, but it would be a hell of a lot more interesting to hear some original thoughts about the films instead of people parroting the party line du jour.

That "aged so poorly" business reminds me of what I've heard from some non-SW fans about ANH specifically.

So, anyone know anything specific about those French TPM enthusiasts?

 

Haven't heard this before, though I'm not surprised. Historically, France has liked American films that have done poorly (or gotten poor reviews) in the U.S. Not 100% sure of the reason(s), but if you're a fan (like me) of European cinema, you know that it's quite different from American cinema, i.e. more intellectual and less action - I'm oversimplifying to make a point, but you get the idea.

Part of the reason France may appreciate TPM more than U.S. audiences is because the "invasion" of Theed brings to mind the invasion of Europe/France? by the Germans in WW II (and we know how that ended). Back when TPM first came out in '99, I remember reading somewhere that the scenes of the Battle Droids walking/marching through the occupied city was inspired by WW II footage/pictures. If anyone has a link to this info. (or better yet, pictures), please post here - Thanks!

 

I get the idea, but what you described is patently the opposite of what the PT is. However, like I said, French filmmakers are also known for their emphasis on style over substance, as well (the films of Luc Besson being one example). Your mileage may vary, of course.

 

What are you using as a point of comparison, though? The OT, or Solyaris?

 

For an upper limit as to how far intellectualism can displace action in a sci-fi film, look no further than 2001: A Space Odyssey.

 

I think the foreign media was overall a lot kinder to the prequels than the media in the U.S.. That's not an absolute, but that's my impression.

George Lucas has always had a following in France. It loves auteurs. Go into any French bookstore and you'll find ROWS of books about the films of Woody Allen.

The annoying thing about that documentary is the assumption there's something odd or unusual about liking the prequels. Not true.

--MissPadme

 

Standard mainstream media practice. The people who like the prequels, of whom there are a fair few, are never shown, except rare appearances intended to deride them as hard-core geeks or something.

This is just my humble opinion, but what I've seen of the documentary is fairly excruciating. Nothing really new, either. I seriously doubt if I'll even bother to watch the whole thing.

 

Well no, it's not abnormal as a mental illness would be. But who's saying someone can't question the tastes in film of prequel fans if they're so easily sated by these films? I mean, prequel-lovers love to pigeonhole original trilogy fans as middle-aged supernerds who are raging about George Lucas destroying their childhood. Of course, no child, pre-teen, or teen could hate the prequels! It's UNTHINKABLE! No person could legitimately criticize the prequels without injecting nostalgia! It's PREPOSTEROUS!

I mean, I'm posting this on a Star Wars fan forum, so of course, a huge group of you will be prequels fans. But go out into the wide world and the average North American/British viewer will say "Star Wars Episode 1? That movie with Jar Jar? MAAAN, that sucked hard!" Just by demographics alone, prequel haters will probably outnumber prequel lovers, and people who don't give a damn will outnumber both. That makes it odd. It's not representative of the normative opinion.

 

That reminds me: How does one say, "Woody Allen raped my childhood!" in French?

On second thought, don't tell me. It might get the authorities involved.

 

Wouldn't surprise me. TPM has its strengths just like any other SW film. The Coruscant scenes alone I find far more intriguing than a fair number of "beloved" OT sequences.

 

Annie Hall, now THAT's a movie that turned out completely different from the director's original vision.

At least Allen had the sense to realize what a good film he'd stumbled into making, and hasn't been slowly destroying everything audiences loved about the movie in the first place in a misguided attempt to realize his original concept.

Can you imagine if he released "Annie Hall: The original murder mystery cut" and then refused to preserve or release the Oscar-winning version in industry-standard formats?

EDIT:

[image=http://mauiganic.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/irony-meter.jpg]

 

Okay people, no need to get your panties in a bunch. I just want to hear if anyone knows the actual content of the "fascinating intellectual defense" these French dudes have offered. That's all.

cheers

 

I'd like to hear it too. In the meantime, there's nothing wrong with clearing up the discussion and doing away with the pro-PT equivalents of "raped my childhood" hyperbole.

 

Did I post something like that? If so, I apologize.

Nothing clears up a discussion of French critical views of TPM like ranting about hypothetical Woody Allen film special editions.

 

I contacted the guy who made the documentary, and he told me that only a snippet of the Barthomieu interview is shown in the documentary, but he might include some materials in the DVD when it's released.




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The Woody Allen bit was just a fun aside. The part that needed clearing up was the all-too-typical "The media has it in for George!!!" conspiracy theory nonsense.

 

Yeah, he told me the same thing. I've seen that part, by the way. Part of it's in the documentary's trailer. Barthomieu actually says in the snippet something like "The hatred people say they have for the new movies shows how profoundly they love them."

Great. That isn't very promising. Barthomieu might as well have said "yo momma". Not exactly the "fascinating intellectual defense" alluded to on the site, but I am hoping there is more to it than that.

Well, that wasn't my intent. Most media depictions of Lucas are fairly positive (especially those that feature his hot millionaire CEO girlfriend). I just said they rarely if ever show the people who love the prequels (well other than Barthomieu in this documentary). If you can provide abundant counterexamples to prove that wrong, feel free to. In fact, I would like to be proven wrong in this respect.

What would really make my day though is if someone who can read French, or knows a lot about this matter, could provide details (and not just conjecture, though the conjecture so far has been interesting) concerning the aforementioned "fascinating intellectual defense" of TPM by French cineastes.

Anyone?

 

"Go out into the wide world and the average North American/British" viewer will also tell you "America/Britain's Got Talent? MAAAN, that's one helluva show!"

 

The French would have only gotten a French dub right?

So French audiences have never heard Jar Jar's original voice or Jake Lloyd's bad acting.

The French translation might have even taken away Jar Jar's strange way of speaking and replaced it with normal words.The original English language Phantom Menace would be a different experience from the French language version.

It would be a different movie with all the voices dubbed by French actors.