TPM- the most underrated SW film

I was asked in the thread about AOTC being the best SW movie yet to expand on my position on TPM. I didn?t want to derail that thread any further (sorry mods) so I figured I?d start a new thread. I did use the search option and couldn?t find any other threads along this line (I?m going to say more than one thing), but if there is, lock away mods (and point me in the direction of that thread, please).

So what IS my position on TPM? That would be that it?s the second best SW movie. My list is as follows:
1)TESB
2)TPM
3)ANH
4)ROTJ
5)AOTC

As you can see, my ratings put me in an interesting position where I can neither be a PT gusher or hater?I just watch the movies and make my opinions on each separate film.

So now the big question is why? Well, art is subjective, as we all know. But that doesn?t mean that we can?t do a little better than shouting back and forth ?such and such was awesome!? and ?no, such and such was childish and boring,? etc. We can actually take some time and look at HOW these movies are put together and what their purpose is, and we can thus evaluate them in a slightly more thorough fashion. So let?s do that?

What is the purpose of TPM? Well, TPM actually serves quite a few purposes in the context of the overall series. Firstly, being ?Episode I? it is somewhat introductory. Being that it was actually the fourth film released, it isn?t solely responsible for intro, but it DOES set up the new trilogy. Perhaps more interestingly, though, is what TPM is supposed to accomplish both tonally and stylistically. As many have pointed out before, this IS that civilized galaxy that Obi-Wan discussed in ANH. This was meant to show the galaxy for what it was before the Empire, a vivid, colorful, awe-inspiring setting full of chivalry and grandeur. And finally, from a narrative standpoint, this is the story of a young boy leaving home to ?see? the stars. It is his journey from his humble beginnings into the massive galaxy. It was a story of his freedom and of his dreams.

In each of these purposes, I think TPM succeeded, and it did so with gusto.

The visual style is undeniably vivid and colorful. Every planet we go to, every set we see, seems either truly alive with colorful inhabitants or it is grandiose in nature, such as the sprawling marble floors and pillars of Naboo?s palace, or the lush red interiors of Coruscant. This style and tone is obviously visible in the characters as well. While the queen?s nature may have been stoic, her appearance exuded majesty and colorful traditions. Of course, Jar Jar Binks, that most reviled character, is a manifestation of this vividness. He also represents the purity of the galaxy at this point. Hate him or not, he WAS an effective character symbol that adequately echoed the setting of the film.

Of course, it also serves as a nice intro into the galaxy. IMO, Lucas did a fantastic job of asserting the role of the Jedi in the galaxy, as well as that of the Senate. This was a point of much scorn by critics, but I quite loved the scenes on Coruscant. The political machinations taking place are actually quite brilliant and interesting to watch unfold. I also must say that the acting was quite possibly at its highest point thus far in the PT in TPM?s Coruscant scenes. Natalie?s queen was elegant and powerful, totally mesmerizing, and McDiarmid?s Palpatine was most convincing (to the audience and Amidala). We learn of midichlorians. Another point of scorn among many fans, but it DOES give us greater insight into the workings of the force.

And finally, the way the narrative unfolds is very personal. Often times, people complain when things are too ?linear,? but this isn?t always a detriment. TPM and ANH are perfect examples of when a linear narrative serves the story more appropriately. When a story is very streamlined, we follow the participants every step of the way. We feel a closer proximity to them when we take the journey step by step with them. When something unfolds in a manner with extensive cross-cutting, it be

 

I can't believe someone else shares my EXACT thoughts. Your order is the EXACT same as mine.

(except for the lack of a Force explanation and the introduction of midichlorians {which suck} )

 

I agree with everything but all that talk about how AOTC is the worst of the series, but like you said, art is subjective.

 

Bravo! Excellent in-depth discussion on the likes and dislikes of TPM. Yes, I also loved TPM, not only because Obi-Wan was in it, but because it is the first in the trilogy and has a lot of heart and story behind it. That's kind of how I like trilogy movies. I always tend to like the first rather than the middle or last like LOTR.

 

I couldn't have put it better myself. Bravo!

 

Well it would have been better if GL left Greedo in it.

 

I love this film and it doesn't deserve most of the bashing that is said about it. I would rank it in my #3 spot right behind TESB&ANH.

 

I agree that TPM is underrated but IMO, ROTJ is the most underrated.

 

I agree with that.

 

wow, that was a great analysis!!

In any case with all RotS stuff and the forum and everthing I can feel like I am beggining to lose perspective about all this. I know that I would rate ESB the first but after that... not sure. For me TPM has two big "yes, but": one is Jar Jar... somehow I don´t feel it fits with the rest of the "galaxy", the other one is all that stuff about the midichlorians and the "no father" issue.

I think that after watching four or five times RotS I am going to take like six or seven months with no SW at all to try to be prepared for one of those DVD marathons of the six movies in chronological order... I am sure that somehow my opinion about the whole thing will change.

 

That's a well thought out analysis of Episode One, but did you feel Anakin was the central figure of the film and the plot revolved around his character?

From Episode One, did you get a strong sense of what the Force is and what's it's correlation with the Jedi?


You noted that you admired Qui Gon... could you describe in detail his heroic deeds that were not convoluted with the philosophy "the ends justify the means?" Typically in myths, heroes are defined by the villains they conqueror and defeat.


I thought Episode One was okay as best as an introductory piece to the Star Wars saga and your analysis covers some of those points. Good on you.

 

Thank very much for that essay, Kupo. Very well said. Although I still think TPM is the worst of the six, I can agree with nearly all your points.

But now, the inevitable rebuttal: briefly, why I think TPM fails.

The story, while well-crafted and logical (esp. in comparison to AOTC's love arc) is still a dull, dry largely expository one.

Total clunker lines and/or line readings are WAY too frequent in TPM.

Jar Jar. I know it's easy to point the finger at him, but he epitomizes the problems.

Too much telling, not enough showing, and showing the wrong stuff.

In my view, these reasons more than outweigh the positive aspects that Kupo relates in the opening post. For I did not enter my first TPM screening expecting a good movie. I'd read the reviews, and that many critics aren't likely to be wrong. But I really wasn't prepared for the sheer boredom I'd feel even a few minutes into the film or the cringe moments throughout.

TPM, underrated? Sure it is, and with good reason. But you'll have to go to the "what went wrong with TPM" thread to see my fleshed out argument, lest I completely hijack this one.

 

I'm glad this could spark some conversation.

Oh, and rurouni, I wouldn't consider it high-jacking (that's up to the mods, though, I guess). I kind of look at this thread as a comprehensive analysis of the film, looking at the good and bad together to try and determine where it fits in the overall saga, and whether it's severely underrated compared to the other films.

Sith_sensei, I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at with those questions, but I'll gladly answer.

Yes, Anakin was the central figure of the film. While this was a true ensemble cast (with Ani, Qui-Gon, and the Queen taking the spotlight), the true revelation of the story revolves totally around him, when he is discovered on Tatooine. Even much of Qui-Gon's place in the saga is channeled through Ani and the Prophecy.

I think you get a pretty good idea of the force from TPM and its correlation to the Jedi. Moreso than ANH. We get plenty of visual cues as to the powers the Force holds, and we realize that it is what the Jedi employ to accomplish these amazing feats. It's also made quite clear that they use it to draw wisdom and guidance from. We also learn what gives somebody a greater natural capacity to commune with this sacred power. This is the film that gives us the second best insight into the Force, outside of probably TESB.

I won't claim to know enough universal mythology to comment on how well Qui-Gon fits into that scheme, but I will say George paints him as a hero, but really more than that, as a father. He does show great compassion to Jar Jar, and he frees a small boy from slavery. He also aids in the Queen's escape and attempts to dispatch the vile Trade Federation. These are all quite heroic and noble. As for ends justifying means, people all too often think this is an inherently bad philosophy, but it's not. Often times it is wrong, but that doesn't mean always. Was cheating the chance cube to free Anakin really a bad thing? No. In this case, it would seem quite obvious to me that the ends DO justify the means. Qui-Gon is not a hero defined by the enemies he dispatches; Qui-Gon is a hero defined by the love and compassion he shows towards life.

As for your comments, rurouni, I would really like to know how you compare AOTC's dialogue to TPM's, since you list it as one of your major problems with the film. I certainly see some of TPM's "clunkers" but I wholeheartedly believe they are more than overshadowed by good lines and performances, and they are FAR less in frequency, I believe, than AOTC, which is basically bad dialogue beginning to end.

I think I'll find that thread and your posts, I'm very intersted to see your thoughts.

 

Yup, kupo... you definitely sparked up debate. thumbs up!

It's interesting how you feel Anakin is the central figure in Episode One as most of the plot and dilemma revolves around the invasion of Naboo. Anakin was not really interested in helping in the liberation of Naboo as he gave a farewell to Amidala and headed to the Jedi Temple. The invasion of Naboo, the decaying Senate, the mystery of the Sith did not revolve around or relate to Anakin. Because those situations, it's hard to see that Anakin was the central character, or even if Episode One has one.

I think you get a pretty good idea of the force from TPM and its correlation to the Jedi. Moreso than ANH.

Interesting, especially since there is no mention that the Jedi draws its power from the Force. There isn't any real context in the relationship between the Jedi and The Force. Without the proper context of ANH or ESB, it can be assumed The Force is some sort of God-like entity like Zeus or Neptune and the Jedi is some sort of Wizards, like Gandalf, or worse yet, anomaly like Neo of the Matrix. A New Hope knew the importance of describing the Force and the relation to the Jedi so there wouldn't be this type of assumption.


I would agree that Qui-Gon fits more of a fatherly role than heroic one. He aids the Queen in her escape, but it's not a legendary tale. He didn't plan on freeing slaves, and wasn't about to do so until he took a scientific reading on Anakin's midichlorian count. When Qui-Gon discovered his value, only then did he plan to manipulate the situation to obtain him. Shmi did not have the same value and was not freed.

 

Very good explanation! I agree with all of your positives on TPM.

"Wipe them out....all of them!" Is indeed a kick@ss line. Best of the series so far! Plus it would be great to use in any ROTS fan trailers.

 

Well, as I said, being that it was the fourth film released, it is not responsible for all introduction. But I still stand by what I say. While certain things may not be outright said, the actions of the Jedi and the way they speak of the force makes its purpose fairly clear. Like I said, we learn what powers can be obtained through the force, we know that it can bestow knowledge and wisdom to its wielder, and we gain an understanding as to how someone channels the force. TPM could stand-alone and the majority of the crowd would easily be able to make the proper inferences.

We know that the Jedis seem to be the main practitioners using the force, and that it is their intent (whether they succeed or not) to use it for good.

As for Qui-Gon's heroics, we seem to be in agreement that he is more the fatherly figure. And you are right that he frees Ani only after learning of his midi count (though he did try to free Shmi, also). But, what makes Qui-Gon heroic and good-hearted, what makes you care for him remains the same...he seems to have a general appreciation and respect for all life. Even when he and Ani just meet, he treats the "slave" like he would treat any human, even seeming to enjoy his company (contrast this to Obi's "pathetic life-forms" view). Of course the Jar Jar thing still stands...and this all ties into his valuing of the "living" force... Qui-Gon, throughout the film, disobeys ignorant and absolute rules and even burdens himself at times for the good of the lives of others.

Also, I still believe Ani is the central character of the story, but this IS partially contextual. The trade dispute creates the story's conflict, the driving force of the plot. But the story becomes that, as I said, of a boy venturing out into the galaxy from his humble beginnings. Stories are composed of more than plot, one must also take into consideration character, intent, tone, etc. This is where the story becomes Anakin's. This is the story of his childhood and of his innocence. The trade dispute merely presents a background on which to build this character.

 

I reakon The Phantom Menace is about 5th

 

You are correct that this is for fourth film to be released. However, it IS Episode One, and thus the introduction to the Star Wars universe.

It's not fairly clear what the Force is or it's correlation with the Jedi within this introduction episode. We see the Jedi has a special power, but it's not known where this power originates. Again without the context of ANH and ESB, many things can be inferred.


Qui-Gon's heart might be in the right place and does demonstrate some nobility, but he still lacks the nemesis in which heroic legends are defined.


Your analysis that Anakin is the central figure of Episode One can also be applied to Jar Jar Binks. Jar Jar is child like and ventures in to space. Moreover, Binks has as much character growth as Anakin in Episode One. An arguement can be made that Jar Jar Binks is the central character of Episode One.

 

Well, I think QG DOES have a nemesis, and a very interesting one, at that. It is a bit more vague, and not necessarily tangible, but it is a nemesis, nonetheless, and that which I'm speaking of is simply the ideologies that existed in the galaxy. The film makes it obvious that Qui-Gon is quite at odds with his own order concerning many issues...and it is this set of ideologies he must overcome. In ROTS we learn... *ROTS spoiler for anyone in this forum who doesn't want to see it*

that Qui-Gon's march against this set of ideologies was successful, and his personal conceptions of the force were superior to that of the Jedi order. Despite the fact that he freed the boy who would slaughter countless, I think it's become pretty obvious that George is illustrating the "correctness" of Qui-Gon's approach to the force. It is not a leap at all to see how George is suggesting that under QG's guidance Anakin may never have fallen, as there would be less centering on the future, less fortune-telling. If the PT itself isn't enough to convince you, George makes this abundantly clear in the OT Yoda.

Indeed, I don't think its any stretch to see that Qui-Gon's nemesis was not corporeal, but a set of archaic beliefs. But once again, George does seem to place at least as much emphasis on the fatherly aspect of QG as the "heroic" QG. Simply not falling into the archetypical "hero" slot(which in some aspects he does) doesn't make him not a compelling character. He still, certainly, was the "sage." And it's undeniable that he's had a lasting impression on the public, even if he didn't wipe out Sith-scum. People latched onto his guidance, his caring, his concern, his patience.

I'm currently reviewing the films to see all of the mentions of the force, and all its displays. I don't feel I can comment much further in that area until I've brushed up some. My memory's a bit foggy.

And I'll be getting back soon with the "central character" discussion.

Oh, and thanks for the replies! I enjoy intelligent, flame-free debates.

 

while qui-gon may not be the ideal Jedi, he did have great intuition:

1. He figured that the Sith were back despie the reservations of Mace Windu and even Yoda.

2. He felt something about Anakin, before he took his midichlorian count. The count just confirmed his intuition.

 

<<<<<Well, as I said, being that it was the fourth film released, it is not responsible for all introduction.>>>>>

Think about future generations when they watch it in order before you say that. Lucas says I-VI is the way to go yet TPM is simply NOT an introduction to Star Wars. ANH is. If he had simply had Qui-Gon gave a variation on the speech Ben gave to Luke in ANH, and have him use the mind-trick and explain it, all would be fine. This is the ONLY problem I have with TPM. No force explanation, but tons of midichlorians everywhere.

 

I do like TPM, but always thought that it is AOTC that deserves to be called the most underrated episode.

 

I always liked TPM... it took me 2 years to warm up to young Jake though...his acting really annoyed me. While everyone was griping about Jar Jar (whom I got a kick out of) I was pointing out the poor choice of casting for young Anakin. But...that passed and I just deal with it and enjoy the movie.

My feelings are and have always been, ROTJ is the weakest of all the SW's... where it should have been the strongest. I truly feel the diversion with the Ewok stuff hurt it greatly and took away from it being the best of the Classic 3. It didnt redeem itself until the last 15 minutes of the movie. Its grown on me to be honest... I used to HATE ROTJ with a passion, but I have eased up considerably. Its "okay" now..but will always be the weakest of the bunch for me... at least the SE and dvd punched up the emotional feeling I was looking for in experiencing everyones freedom at the end and showing the celebrations.

 

It's not fairly clear what the Force is or it's correlation with the Jedi within this introduction episode.

It would be redundant to explain the Force twice. I actually like how the Force is mysterious until it is explained.

The same thing happens with midi-chlorians on a smaller scale: first they are mentioned, later they are explained.

 

It wouldn't be redundant at all. We'd be hearing about it for the first time in six hours in ANH.