PT TPM underrated

Either way, I think the point is that the training luke is receiving is not some bonafide Jedi training. It's some thing Obi Wan made up. But then Lucas shoves it into AOTC and tells us that it's basic training. What?

Vader is the chosen one. Vader does destroy the sith. Vader is born of immaculate conception.

None of these concepts are mine, they're Lucas'. And I think they're crazy myself. But they're central to the PT, which is part of the reason why the PTs suck. Because the prophecy crap makes no sense.

Hmmn, yeah no. Premonitions are basic to the Jedi. f you're going to mention Qui-Gon I'd go to his teaching of Obi Wan saying "be mindful of the moment" at the very start of TPM.

Truth be told. TPM is my favourite of the PT. Yes, ahead of sith, and in that movie the Jedi actually mostly act like Jedi.

That being said, I don't think the PT matches with the OT which was the original contention. It's self-contained.

I'm not saying there isn't the possibility of both Obi Wan and Yoda having learned something. However, I don't think that they do. The characters are by and large pretty static unfortunately. Which is one of the major problems, nitpicks aside.

I just don't think the character development you're suggesting is presented in the movies. For me, it may make sense for the peaceful Jedi to get swept up in the war (ie the crusade, as obi wan calls it), and to lose their way, resulting in their destruction and afterwards getting back on the path. Like the Jedi fall from grace, but Anakin falls further than most.

But I don't think that's really examined at all in the movies. The Jedi are just a bunch of idiots in the PT. They don't do anything except die for the most part.

 

Akalabeth Angel, Ive already warned you once about addressing posters with personal accusations.

Consider this your final warning.

 

Why could it not be bonafide Jedi training? Seriously, what other purpose does the remote serve if not to help teach trainees to block bolts with a lightsaber? Also, sensory deprivation to hone other skills is a pretty standard method of training warriors or teaching students to pay attention. I don't see why it's that odd.

True, Vader is the Chosen One and was born of an "immaculate conception," but Lucas also subverts this to a great degree. In ROTS, for example, it's implied (though never confirmed) that Plagueis or Palpatine created him through manipulation of the Force, which throws an interesting twist on things. Is he a creation of "god" or the devil? And the fact that he spends so much of his life submerged in evil inverts the common journey of the messiah quite thoroughly. Had he killed Palpatine when he had the chance, a great deal of suffering for everyone could have been avoided. He's not only sacrificing himself for the "sins" of others, but for his own as well. It tells us that having a destiny and a place of importance in the world does not always mean your life will be joyous or a weight easily borne.

In my opinion, the prophecy makes a great deal of sense and is one of the best aspects of the PT. It says a great deal about the nature of destiny and how heavy burdens can break even the best of us.

That's fine. You're free to hold that opinion. We're probably not going to agree on much though, considering the PT is what made me a fan of the Star Wars universe.

The Jedi did get swept up in the war. No one wanted to fight. The problem was, with events unfolding as rapidly as they did, they never stopped to think if they should get involved, whether it was worth it or even their best course of action. I think many of them did lose their way, as you put it, they were well-meaning, but they isolated themselves from the populace and became complacent, not realizing the full extent of the threat the Sith posed. And they paid the price for that. All of the Jedi fell, to a certain degree. Some fell in battle. Others were humbled like Yoda and Obi-Wan who were forced into hiding. Anakin completely lost his way. I'd say the movies do a good job of reflecting that. It's easy for us to call the Jedi idiots, but we have the advantage of knowing how the plot will unfold while they were plagued with uncertainties to the point that they, again, focused on the future instead of the moment. And overlooked an enemy right under their noses.

 

Because it's pretty clear that Obi Wan makes up the idea of putting the helmet on his head mid-way through. And please don't tell me that's the "advanced class" or something.

Like I say, it's arguable that the remote is some Jedi training tool (though like RLM says, why does Obi Wan have one?).

But putting the helmet on is pretty clearly Obi Wan making stuff up on the fly. So then taking that and turning it into lighsabers 101 in AOTC is a bit dumb.

I think the prophecy is complete trite myself.
"Bring balance to the force and destroy the sith"??
All Vader does is get everyone killed.

It's like a prophecy about moses leading everyone to the promised land, but by the time they get there only 2 people are still alive and the rest of the ex slaves are dead.

And it's never clear what balance to the force means. In the PT Yoda and everyone else can't see anything clearly. Yet in TESB Yoda says he's been watching Luke for a while. How's he watching luke on Daghoba if the force is imbalanced and the good guys can't see anything??? That don't make sense.

Or does Obi Wan have his house bugged with secret video cameras that can also read Luke's thoughts and Obi Wan broadcasts these to Yoda's state of the art facilities in his clay hutt on Daghoba (without the empire ever intercepting them).

Well, I'd say everyone's an idiot in the prequels myself. Everyone except Palpatine. But I discussed that in the other thread.

Like it's never made clear what the bad guys are trying to get out of their actions. Because they don't speak for themselves, they just do whatever sidious tells them to.

 

I don't know. It seems to me that Obi-Wan can tell that Luke is having difficulty with the exercise and so he uses whatever is on hand (the blast shield) to cover his eyes so he will concentrate. It seems like a pretty standard training technique. I would imagine that it's pretty helpful in getting Jedi to hone their senses so I don't find its placement in AOTC all that odd.

Of course it's clear. Obi-Wan even says so: "You were the Chosen One. It was said that you would destroy the Sith, not join them!" The Sith are a cancer in the Force and Anakin must destroy them to bring the Force back into balance. The suffering is a result of Anakin's weakness in the PT.

Also, many of the problems the Jedi face in regards to the Force is that they, unlike Palpatine, have difficulty predicting the future ("Impossible to see, the future is") due to the influence of the dark side. And Yoda has learned from this, that's why he tells Luke that the fate of his friends is uncertain and that the future is always in motion. They no longer have the luxury of certainty.

You're free to think that, but don't forget that everything is always clearer in hindsight. Our history is littered with examples of people who ignored or did not respond to wrongdoing although it seems extremely obvious to our eyes. You think the Jedi are idiots. That's okay. I prefer to think of them as flawed, though.

 

Hmmn, I'm guessing you saw the PT first.
Anyway agree to disagree.

I believe what I believe. You do the same.

Yeah but, if he's destined to destroy the sith, why does he join them first?

All of this completely ignores the fact that the reason Anakin destroyed the Emperor was because of Luke. Luke is the catalyst that redeems Anakin.

Without Luke, no redemption, no prophecy fulfilled.

Which is why it's bogus.

Isn't one of the main arguments in support of TPM that Palpatine had to react on the fly and didn't predict the queen to escape and come to Coruscant? If he's so clairvoyant, why was it a surprise? He didn't expect her to leave to go back to Naboo either.

Look at it another way.
In the prequels, the force was unbalanced. Yoda couldn't see jack all. He couldn't tell that Anakin had the hots for padme.

But in TESB, the force is still unbalanced (one would argue it's worse), but Yoda knows exactly what Luke's dreams and motivations are. Know that he's always looking to the future and not focusing on the present. Seeking adventure, so forth.

So why can Yoda see in TESB, but not PT?

It doesn't make sense.

No, I don't think the Jedi are idiots. I think everyone's an idiot.

Mace Windu is the biggest idiot of all.

Not predicting Palpatine to pull the switch like that is fine if it's well written. But it wasn't. The Jedi didn't respond as they should have. Most of this was address in the RLM review.

And as I say the bad guys had no discernable motivations of their own. They were just following orders for no apparent reason.

 

You are correct. I did see it first. But it's fine; like you said, let's agree to disagree.

Well the prophecy never said when, why, or how he would destroy the Sith, now did it? It just said he would. Saving Luke and being redeemed is not antithetical to the fulfillment of the prophecy. One could say Anakin fulfills his destiny because of his son.

To be fair, foresight isn't perfect. Palpatine found that out the hard way in ROTJ when Vader saved his son and destroyed him although he'd predicted Luke would join them.

I would say it's probably due to the fact that Yoda is sensing Luke at the present. He's not attempting to look into the future, but rather, he's keeping a watchful eye over him and can sense his emotions. There's also the fact that the Emperor and Vader are unaware of Luke's existence and have likely themselves grown complacent and arrogant (especially Palpatine) due to their victory in the PT.

I would say the problem with Mace (I'm guessing you're referring to the scene where he finds out Palpatine is a Sith Lord?) is that he's so fearful of the repercussions of a Sith in power that he fails to adequately prepare or look at alternative, more logical routes, like informing the Senate. In many ways, his dialogue parallels Anakin's dilemma ("we must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive") in that they are both trying to save something they love. Although to be fair to Mace, he would have succeeded in taking out Palpatine if Anakin hadn't intervened (though the political fallout would likely have been nasty).

I wouldn't say that the other bad guys have no discernible motivations, just that they are shallow. Greed, cowardice, lust for power -- they're all pretty basic drives. But I think Lucas is also showing that evil people are small and ignoble. They don't necessarily always need deep motivations, such as the Trade Federation.

 

I don't know what the prophecy says because it's as vague as humanly possible.
One could just as easily argue that Luke is the chosen one, because without him the Sith don't die.

To be fair, foresight is just a plot device. And I don't for a second believe that any of the Jedi or Sith forsee much of anything on a regular basis.

I don't see how the Emperor and Vader factor into this. PT shoehorns in the idea that the Emperor is somehow disturbing the force and clouding everyone's mind, but this isn't evident whatsoever in the OT. That's why Yoda has no problem knowing exactly what is going on in Luke's mind a thousand light years away but he can't tell what Anakin's thinking when he's 2 feet in front of him.

That's why personally I treat the PT as completely separate entities, and for the most part ignore them (above and beyond the fact they're boring). Because stuff they say in the OT don't make sense in the PT and vice versa.

No, I just think Mace is pretty much the worst Jedi on the council. Due mainly to the fact that Samuel L Jackson can't do the part. Or Lucas can't direct him properly to do the part. Either way, when dialogue comes out of his mouth, I cringe. That and he says a lot of stupid stuff.

The Trade Federation's motives are never explored. Nor are the Separatists. Nor General Greivous. Which is one of the biggest problems in the movies.

In the TPM, why is the Trade Federation doing what it's doing?

The taxation
of trade routes to outlying star
systems is in dispute.

Hoping to resolve the matter
with a blockade of deadly
battleships, the greedy Trade
Federation has stopped all
shipping to the small planet
of Naboo.

While the congress of the
Republic endlessly debates
this alarming chain of event

 

Look, AkalabethAngel, what do you want me to say? I pointed out to you that the prophecy contradicts nothing established in the OT, but you don't like it so it's an unwelcome presence. I don't know why you want it to be more specific (most predictions in fiction that I've seen are pretty vague though, to be honest), but you're entitled to feel that way if you choose.

I feel the way that foresight was incorporated into the OT is consistent with that of the PT, but you disagree. That's fine as well. I was speaking about the use of the Force in precognition, not in observation of the present. Visions of the future were already well established in the OT, so it doesn't bother me all that much that characters have limited views of what is to come.

You don't like the dialogue or the acting with Mace? Okay. I feel I did a reasonable job presenting my perspective, but if that's how you feel, I'm not going to change your mind.

The plotline with the Trade Federation bothers you. Honestly, I feel that the movie gives us all the information we need to know for the purpose of the film. The TF is unhappy with the taxation of trade routes and has struck a deal with Sidious for mutual advantage. We discussed this aspect at length in the RLM thread and, to be honest, it's never a point that irritates me that much because the TF isn't even the main villain of TPM. Palpatine is, and the TF is meant to distract the audience and the heroes from that fact. Could Lucas have expounded upon the TF subplot? Yes. Do I think it would have made the movie better? No. In my opinion, it would have simply been distracting. Either way, it's clear neither of us is making progress convincing the other, so why don't we just leave it at that?

 

No I don't suspect I'll change your mind and you certainly won't change mine.
Which is the end result of most internet debates.


To me the prequel trilogy and the original trilogy have very little in common and that's pretty much how it's going to stay. Lucas can try to shoe horn in the prophecy and whatever other subplots he wants but since the OT was never written that way it doesn't really work. I view them as two separate stories that don't go together, and I view only one of them as worth watching.

As for Mace Windu. Despite Jackson being the worst Jedi ever. My problem is that so many people in the PT are incompetent. In the OT everyone's got a brain in their head. Like in ANH when Tarkin's aid tells him that the rebels have a shot at taking out the Death Star. He knows what's going on. When the Falcon lands on the Death Star, Vader and Moff know what's up but let it play out to find the rebel base. The bad guys in the PT don't visibly pursue their own agenda because it's never made apparent what their actual agenda is, and the good guys just get duped along for the ride. You say it wouldn't have helped the films. But personally, the machinations or Palpy would've been a lot more impressive had nearly every other character NOT been a complete pawn. That and the fact I can't stomach most of the dialogue.

And lastly, if the Trade Federation is meant to distract from palpatine, and if concentrating on them more would've been distracting, why would it have NOT helped the movie? As the movie stands, the TF is just a bunch of pawns that take orders. They're helping Sidious but it's not at all apparent that their own plans are going ahead because there's no action in the senate or anywhere that supports them. And clear and present dangers to their plans (ie Palpatine getting elected) aren't even addressed in any way whatsoever. It's the same with the enemy factions in the second and third movies too.

It's simply not believable. They don't come across as real people, unlike the OT.

 

I think all the Star Wars movies are rated just right.

 

ROTJ and ROTS are different films. In one the Force is balanced. In the other it isn't.

 

If one looks at ratings from metacritic, you get the following for Star Wars movies:

TPM: critics: 52, users: 6.3
AotC: critics: 53, users: 6.3
RotS: critics: 68, users: 7.0
ANH: critics: 91, users: 8.8
ESB: critics: 78, users: 9.6
RotJ: critics: 52, users: 8.5

So, according to popular opinion vs. critical reception, it looks like TPM is indeed a bit underrated, though not beloved, as are all the films with the exception of my own favorite, ANH, which by this metric is a bit overrated!

But is is all just opinion in the final analysis, and if you love a film, it doesn't much matter what critical or popular opinion says about it.

 

I will agree with you Akalabeth Angel, the one thing never made clear in TPM is what the TF has to gain by entering into the agreement with the Sith.

Obviously, one could assume increased profits;however, the jedi offer them a settlement so it can't be mere monetary gain.

 

Yes. Because the idea of unbalanced force was only introduced in the prequels and doesn't really carry through to the OT.

Thing is, what does "balance" mean? And at what point did Vader bring balance to the force? The Jedi say their use of the force is diminished, suggesting it's balanced against them. However after they all get murdered the force is back to normal? Shouldn't it be the opposite? Ie, the force is totally "dark side"?

One would think that Vader brings balance by killing Sidious, but that doesn't happen til ROTJ and it's pretty clear in TESB that Yoda has no problems envisioning things.

 

I agree with your last point, DarthPoppy. People are free to like or dislike any movie they want, but I stopped listening to "professional critics" when the top critics on Rottentomatoes gave TPM 40% but gave The Human Centipede 45%. I mean really? The freakin' Human Centipede!? Oh, and if you don't know what that movie is DON'T look it up.

 

Actually it is not as clear as you say. We never hear the exact wording of the prophecy, all we hear is talk about someone bringing balance to the Force and apparently the Jedi assume this means "destroy all sith".
But Yoda himself says that they might have gotten the prophecy wrong.

Also if "bring balance" means "kill all sith" then this brings up further problems.
1) The Force has not been balanced for however long the Sith have existed, at least 1000 years.
So if the Force created Anakin to balance the Force it took an awful long time to act.
2) Before TPM, all Jedi belive all Sith long since dead so why would they pay any attention to this prophecy?
As far as they knew the prophecy would already have come to pass.

Lastly who made the prophecy, when was it made, what made it different from the normal jedi ability to see the future and why did the Jedi pay it any mind?

Regards
Nordom

 

3) Even if the prophesy is fullfilled by destroying Palpatine and Vader, what's to keep the Sith from coming back into existance? The Sith sect is built on an ideology, after all. Hypothetically, all it takes is for someone to turn to the Dark side and rediscover the Sith philosophy to rebuild the sect, and then the prophesy will be null and void.

So, I guess anyone who'd want to make a sequel would have to stay away from the ole Jedi vs. Sith conflict (which seems very popular in the EU) or ruin the whole Chosen One prophesy device of the PT...

 

I think part of the reason for the differences between our interpretations simply has to do with how we viewed the movies. I did see Episodes 4,5, and 6 before I saw 3, but I never really "got" that Anakin became Darth Vader until I saw ROTS. So, when I watched ROTS, I didn't expect him to turn in part because Lucas invokes the classic "Chosen One" trope. We aren't told exactly what it means, but it's basically a signal that this person is the "hero" of the story. So, no matter how bad things got for Anakin, I never expected that he would actually betray his comrades and become evil. By giving Anakin that title, it essentially threw me off from because that so rarely happens in popular fiction; usually, no matter the dire straights, the hero triumphs, even if he's stumbled along the way. Think Harry Potter and Neo from the Matrix. By keeping it vague, Lucas planted that idea in my head and then move the story along without giving away too much (as prophecies are wont to do).

When Anakin joins Palpatine and then confronts Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan repeating that line about the Chosen One prophecy, and finally revealing what it meant, is like a punch in the gut. You realize that things have turned out completely "wrong" from what everyone had expected and it's a very powerful moment. But I also realized, once the movie was over, that Obi-Wan was still right because Anakin did eventually destroy the Sith. It just took longer than expected. The revelation of the prophecy is important to the dramatic peak of the PT, but that's just my opinion.

As to your points, Nordom, well

1) I assumed that as the Sith gathered power, this was what was imbalancing the Force, so the Jedi don't begin to sense it until the Sith's influence grows overpowering.
2)See, that's the genius of it. They were going to dismiss Anakin although he's the Chosen One, but once Obi-Wan defeats the Sith and there is evidence of their return, now the Chosen One must be trained because he is the only one who can defeat either the Master or Apprentice that is left. Anakin's training is a precaution.

I honestly don't care too much about who or what made the prophecy. Sometimes a little mystery is intriguing.

And, Danaan, I always felt the point of the prophecy was that it was specifically Sidious that had to be destroyed. The way Lucas uses his character, I've always felt he uses him as the embodiment of the Dark Side, almost a devil in human form. That's why the Force isn't brought back into balance after Dooku or Maul are killed. Just my interpretation though. I'

 

I don't have too much to add to this conversation. Interesting commentary on the Trade Federation though. I have always assumed that Palpidious offered them some huge monetary benefit. And even with the Jedi offering a settlement, Gunray still had a vendetta against Padme for thwarting his efforts, hence why he wanted her assassinated into AOTC. I also think he really did want the taxes along the trade routes lowered, and may have been convinced that the Confederacy of Independent Systems would make that happen.

As far as the prophecy--generally speaking I love the prequels, but the whole "Chosen One" business drives me bats. I would much prefer that Anakin be a very gifted Jedi, whom Qui-Gon discovered because he's the only human who could race pods, and there could have been many reasons why he didn't have a father. Shmi was a slave, she could have been raped (not a pleasant concept and not great for a children's film but still), or she could have just been trying to tell Qui-Gon to mind his own damn business. And don't even get me started on the idea that Plagueis messed around in Shmi's womb. If Anakin were destined to be a Sith, it seems that Luke would not have been able to bring him back.

I see no reason to put the whole prophecy business in there. Not to mention that being the "Chosen One" put undue pressure on Anakin and inflated his arrogance, which led him to the Dark Side. Irony at its finest.

Anyway, my commentary on that aspect of the prequels. I didn't see the point of it. But I do think both TPM and AOTC are underrated.

 

Well, I think the unexplainable birth kinda ties in with the whole Antichrist aspect. Anakin is a Hitler of sorts, and he's been called an Antichrist.

 

I actually like the prophecy-chosen one stuff in the story of the films. I just don't care much for how in unfolds in the scripting.

It's not made explicit enough what it all means and why we should care.

But TPM did set all this up well enough. It was the subsequent films that didn't follow through.

 

Oh dear god, really? Wow...but that can be explained by the fact that fewer reviewers retained their sanity after watching the Human Centipede. The distribution curve must be pretty discrete. Contrast this to TPM, which has been bashed continuously for a decade. Sample size matters.

 

Interesting that you were thrown off like that. I'd have expected that anyone who had seen Ep V before the prequel would have made the connection based on the surname, but it's always interesting to get the perspective from someone who's seen the films in a different order.

Now, I agree that Palpatine is the embodiment of the Dark side. He's really as evil as they come, arguably darker than Lucifer himself who in mythology once was good but fell (making him a parallell to Vader rather than Sidious). He's almost like a Sauron or Morgoth, maybe, an incarnation of evil. In that sense, I think I would have liked it better if the prophecy had pointed more explicitly at a person (say, an Emperor, or a symbol of an Emperor), rather than at an organization (the Sith). However, it's also used together with all those other devices employed to make Anakin really special - his midichlorian count, his virgin birth etc - and in that context I just feel it gets to become heavy handed way of saying "he's so special" that I don't particularly cater to.

As for other films, I'm not a big fan of Potter, and I think the Matrix story in general could have been handled better, the Chosen One device is actually quite cleverly used here. In Matrix 1, it sets up this whole religiousity around the figure of Neo

 

Believe me, I felt quite stupid when I figured it out! I kind of just assumed that Luke was distantly related to Anakin and that they were several generations apart. I didn't make the direct familial connections at all! Even the presence of Obi-Wan was missed, but then, I think that, until I had seen ROTS, I simply separated them into two distinct arcs in my mind. I never fathomed that the young man of AOTC was Darth Vader.

I suppose I see your point. It is quite a cliche. Where I appreciate it is in the fact that it helped to make the twist of Anakin's turn that much more powerful. I also enjoy that it subverts the notion that a "chosen one" must always been a force for good. Anakin certainly did enough damage to the galaxy before he fulfilled his destiny.

As for Palpatine, I agree with you on the Lucifer concept -- the concept of an angel who fell fits Anakin better. Yet, I think aspects of the devil also fit Palpatine in the sense that he is a tempter, luring Anakin to the Dark side.

I'll be honest, I can't say too much about the Matrix trilogy, having only seen the first film, so my example perhaps wasn't the most pertinent. In the first movie, I definitely got the impression that it was following the classic messianic interpretation of the idea of a "chosen one," though. As for Harry Potter, I enjoyed the series, but I'm not exactly a fan of it either.