Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by matt0812, Jul 16, 2010.
Hahahahaha. Now that's comedy.
I'm sorry. But it matters to me.
You would like the films then, if they made sense?
I don't dislike the idea of a prequel trilogy to Star Wars. What I do dislike is their execution, namely:
-Lack of relatable or likeable characters
-Lack of tension and consequence
-Over importance of both Vader and Boba Fett
Just make a trilogy about not the rise of Vader, but about the fall of the republic and rise of the empire. Give each side believable characters and motivations. Focus not on Vader as chosen one, but more on the relationship between Obi Wan and Anakin. Have political intrigue but with believable and more importantly clear goals on the part of all participants.
As it is the the prequels are a bunch of boneheads stumbling about, spouting boring expository dialogue inbetween dazzling action sequences that we don't care about because they've no tension or emotional involvement.
In fact I would love if Lucas just decided to Reboot the prequel trilogy and hand to reigns to someone like RLM suggests, JJ Abrams, director of the recent Star Trek movie. Because that recent Trek movie, while not perfect, was full of emotional involvement and kickass action sequences.
This isn't about discussion and you know it. You've been gunning for confrontation since you arrived here. In your eyes, you're right and anyone who likes the prequels is wrong. What you said about me wanting to "compete with another guy about who loves the movie more" is also revealing. I am here for communion with other fans, to further my knowledge and appreciation of movies I enjoy. I am not particularly interested in rating the movies or arguing over their subjective value. From my view, that is a form of dwelling in ignorance. But that's clearly what you're doing. You, like thousands of other OT-loving fans, think the PT is the worst thing to happen to cinema, and you won't rest until you've destroyed the opposition and converted everyone to your cause. This tedious crusade has been going on for years now. Try another tune. If you think that TPM is poor, fine. You're in the right thread to say so (in the form of a counter-argument to the thread's starting proposition). But you have deliberately gone away from talking up or talking down TPM into broad attacks against the PT as a whole. In other words, you have turned this into another PT-bashing thread. So, next time you accuse someone of ducking from a discussion, take a look in your own backyard. If you can't keep on-topic and feel it proper to keep accusing other people of intellectual failings of one sort or another, there's clearly some psychological masking at work, and it might be in your best interests to deal with it.
Except it doesn't make sense. Why would he not have paid him off by now? The rebels have had time to move their entire operation from Yavin to Hoth and yet Han still hasn't paid back Jabba. The guy has a price on Han's head that could easily get him killed. You can argue that it's a compelling storytelling point for the audience and we want to see it onscreen, but it still makes no sense that the Rebellion would offer him a reward in ANH (that we see) and then the debt is still in place by the time ESB rolls around. It's bad writing and no logical person would ever let such a dangerous debt remain over their heads for so long.
Yeah, like when Han mentions to Chewie that "I'm sure Lando's forgotten about that." We never find out what "that" is exactly. Or when he tells Obi-Wan he made the Kessel Run in under 12 parsecs. We never find out what the Kessel run is either. Again, your double-standards are priceless.
So wait, it's not a plot hole if it advance the story and it heightens the tension? Then I suppose the PT has no plot holes then! Your argument seems to be that nothing in the PT makes sense and characters act solely to advance the plot. Well now, you're contradicted yourself. Your argument here is bull and if you actually buy it, it's hypocritical in the extreme.
And what in the world makes you assume that they would blast another planet. Tarkin even said that Alderaan's destruction was simply a demonstration. There's no evidence that they wanted to destroy another populated world. You're assuming again.
Prove it. You're assuming. The films never give you any evidence for this. And Obi-Wan had nothing to do with it since Vader was able to sense Luke just fine on the shuttle to Endor.
To get the audience wondering. Really? Well, I guess the prophecy must be your favorite part of the PT since you seem to have wondered about it so much. And Leia would not have gotten away were it not for Luke since they needed R2 to fix the hyp
Just to correct this one: the Emperor does, in fact, NOT interrupt Luke from killing Vader. Watch the footage carefully.
Luke is wailing against Vader, chopping off his hand. Then he stops himself, the blade just centimetres away from Vader's face. All it takes is a thrust, and Vader is dead. Luke stands like that, hate on his face, for several seconds before the Emperor starts cackling, clearly in an attempt to goad Luke on.
1) In other words, the Force has been unbalanced for however long the Sith have existed, well over 1000 years.
2) And again since there has been sith around for over 1000 years then the Force is not acting very fast is it?
3) The same imbalance would reappear as soon as another Jedi fell to the dark side.
4) Until another jedi falls to the dark side and we have to start all over again.
5)Lastly, going by the films alone there have always never been more than two siths ever.
The films give no indication that the sith?s number had ever been larger so throughout the millennia there have only ever been two sith fighting the whole jedi order.
6)Seems awfully one-sided.
7)Also, going by the films, the Sith did at one time rule the galaxy. So at some point in time, only two sith managed to get control of the galaxy.
Was the Force imbalanced then? I would think so. Was it ever balanced again, was there a chosen one there? I have no idea but from what you say no.
1)Yep. But they haven't grown enough in power or assumed the right *positions of power* in order to strike until TPM. That's when the time is right.
2)Is the Force supposed to act fast? It's a energy field surrounding all living things, not a Ducatti.
3)Well, yes but you're using the wrong term. It's they fell and became a sith lord. As I said it's not the darkside per se. The imbalance is directly tied to the sith because of what they do with the dark side. It's not using it but abusing it. Think of the sith like dark side addicts. They overindulge in the dark side. That's why they imbalance it. There is no harmony in the world of the sith.
4)Yep. Cue sequel trilogy.
5)full-fledged sith true, but remember there are always would-be apprentices waiting for the time when a master is subverted. This is shown in the OT very well. And no, the films don't say the sith have been fighting the jedi throughout the whole millenium. The jedi think the sith have been extinct for that time period .
6)Not one-sided if you're in hiding, biding your time to strike. The sith were thought to be extinct because there was no contact with the jedi and sith for a thousand years.
7)Yes, the sith ruled the galaxy but it is never stated in the films the sith came to power during the rule of two era(the millenium between Bane and Sidious). Not in the films.
I completely & totally get this argument. Back in Summer '99 when TPM first came out I remember people making this argument even then (on these boards), i.e. it would've helped us to have seen DM doing something horrific - like taking out some Naboo civilians, for example. This would have thereby made us despise the character even more, and we would have really cheered his demise at the end of the duel scene.
However, though I'm sure this type of scene would have made a lot of fans happy, I am fine without it, for several reasons:
- As has been mentioned before, the citizens of Naboo were not being terrorized/starved, etc. - Sio Bibble's hologram message was just a ploy by the Trade Federation to trick Amidala to go back to Naboo. So, showing Maul taking out some Naboo civilians in a horrible way (or at least as horrible as a PG rating would allow) would have gone against the idea of this whole thing being a trick.
- Despite the above, I can see how Lucas could have added a scene in the film having Maul, in a fit of rage, beat up and/or take out some civilians for the heck of it. However, IMHO this would have been out of character for Maul. Though we never find out much about him, the scene with him talking to the Emperor on Coruscant heavily implies that Maul has a specific hatred of the Jedi ("At last we will have revenge.") - and, from what we see in the films, doesn't seem to bother with others. In addition, though I may be completely reading into this here, I'm of the opinion that Maul does have some honor, i.e. I don't see him harming innocents unless he had a very good reason.
- I'm of the opinion that it was enough to have him attack the Jedi & kill Qui-Gon to build him up as a bad guy. After all, he attacked the Jedi unprovoked (both on Tattoine & Naboo), he's affiliated with the Emperor, etc. So, he's clearly established as an evil character quite early on.
- Part of the mystique of the character was that we didn't see too much of him until the very end - and, all told, I don't think he's in more 2-3 scenes in the entire film (if you count the final duel as being one scene). However, even though you don't see much of him, his image still resonates - and, his facial design is one of the coolest out of all 6 SW films.
Having Maul kill some civilians would be like hitting a BMW with a HE bomb.
In the revised rough draft, Lucas had Sidious order Maul to start liquidating the public officials "quietly". One line by Siddy-gram and maybe an aftermath shot showing some bodies on the ground and Maul walking away would get the point across.
But Maul killing women and children?
That is too much on-screen. You can imply it but showing it would be too much.
But I like the idea of politicians better. Plus, it was one of Lucas' ideas. And it would help establish the idea that this is a real attempt to occupy the place. And this would help fill out the Coruscant part of the film with some action instead of just endless meetings with senates, councils, etc.
Then once Palpatine is nominated for chancellor, Sidious *strangely* changes his tune. Lift the blockade and move it somewhere else, etc. No more use for the treaty. Stuff like that. Then have the TF goons act all betrayed and Maul scaring the heck out of them just by looking at them.
Oh another veiled insult. I guess insults on this board are fine, just so long as you sound eloquent when you're doing it?
If you don't want in on the discussion, go join another thread. And that's what arguments are, a form of discussion. If the moderator's feel the thread has gone off the rails at a certain point, they can split it off into a new thread. Or they can just lock it and say you guys aren't behaving. What's the issue?
Oh and the only issue I have is wasting time on the internet.
Can this revised rough draft be accessed online?
Oh I deal with it. I simply don't watch them. I'd rather watch the Ewok Adventures.
Yes, I see what you're trying to do. Justifying an appreciation for the PT despite its flaws by comparing it to the OT which may or may not have flaws but is worth appreciating?
I'm sorry then, because although all movies have flaws there exists a suspension of disbelief where those flaws are too much and the movie falls off the rails. Star Trek for example has a few scratch my head moments, but the movie is good enough that I can gloss them over. No such luck with PT. Typically I find that if I'm nitpicking the movie it's because it's failed a whole.
Either way, I thought we'd agreed to disagree about 10 posts back now.
That's fine. If you don't like them, why force yourself to watch them? Nothing wrong with that. But they are canon.
Of course it's worth appreciating. If you like something (as I like the PT), by extension you're going to logically appreciate its existence because it gives you something to enjoy. If you don't like it, there's nothing for you to personally appreciate. But not liking something doesn't mean there's objectively nothing there at all.
And honestly, the OT has flaws. Whether they are major or minor is up to debate, though.
If you like the new Trek, more power to you. My suspension of disbelief went right out the window when Kirk just happened to run into old Spock and then the two of them just happened to run into a guy who'd invented new teleportation tech. And Kirk being made captain when he initially wasn't even supposed to be on the ship? Yeah...I personally didn't buy that for a second.
Here's the thing though, if I would have liked the movie, I, like you, would probably have overlooked its flaws. I don't think it's a good movie but the majority of the mainstream disagrees with me. So I can readily admit that my grievances don't necessarily make it a bad movie. I just didn't like it. That's all. And yes, we can agree to disagree.
Oh, and Danaan, you're right. The Emperor's intervention technically isn't a plot hole. It just irked me the first time I saw it because it seemed like he made Luke reconsider. But it doesn't conclusively contradict anything. So a point to you.
Either way I'll take a quick stab at these.
The obvious answer is that he's been busy helping the Rebels. Or he wants to stay around Leia.
The movie answer is that it's not good for the story.
They're establishing the relationship between Lando and Han.
And they're establishing Han as a braggart who thinks he's hot stuff. This is all to do with characters.
That never bothered me at all regardless. Not sure why it bothered you.
What's Leia going to do? Broadcast the plans to the Rebels? Why didn't she just do that before the movie even started. It's been established that she intends to deliver the droid personally. Yes, the logical thing would be to set up a rendezvous, change ships, then take the new ship to Yavin. But that would take time, and would detract from the story. Not to mention the fact that they also risk being re-captured again. The Death Star is obviously following them wherever they go. If they go to a port it'll be not far behind them.
You want reasons, I'm throwing some out there. I'm not saying I believe them.
It's not onscreen. It didn't happen.
Then it's all to do with Luke's training and the fact he actually knows how to channel the force on some level. Leia does not know.
Okay on the subject of The Phantom Menace being underrated. I would in fact say it is, because most people seem to rate it below ROTS whereas I would not. Though I haven't seen the re-cut version in its entirety where Lucas managed to ruin the Pod, one of the best things about TPM. If I were to rate my SW Movies it would be 465132 myself.
I don't believe so. The only place I've ever seen much(but not all) is in the TPM Insider's Guide CD-Rom released in '99. There's a large amount of information about what the revised rough draft contained in practically each scene of the film. Lots of good info.
One of the things I've always admired with TPM too is its color palette. Most people don't talk about that, but it helps eastblish a more "bygone era" by looking so different from the other films. Old colorful buildings on Naboo, sleeker starships, etc. These are things that suggest an earlier, more refined era from the OT.
Yep. Its also the brightest. I can't wait for the BluRay because the DVD has some serious color problems.
Thoughts on the Phantom Menace in General,
-Jar Jar talks (I'd rather have him talking and being a baffoon than sitting quietly in the background)
-The Gungans are real people, not droids or clones (more emotional involvement than subsequent movies)
-Liam Neeson (who, despite his questionable actions is probably the best Jedi from the PT).
-Pod Race is one of the best sequences in the trilogy (before Lucas re-edited)
-Darth Maul (best bad guy in the PT in my opinion)
-Jar Jar is an idiot
-Little kid Anakin and all that goes along with it (inc the unbelievable ending)
-Trade Federation's motives and objectives not explored or pursued
-Darth Maul not developed
-Enemy droids are total crap and not good enemies.
-Samuel L. Jackson is the worst Jedi ever
-Darth Maul dies
I believe in another thread I mentioned some ideas about how I would've preferred the PT to pan out. Someone said "that sounds really dull" or something to that effect. Here's another idea, on how the Phantom Menace could've played out except staying as true to the original as possible.
Make Anakin, Owen and their Mother Naboo citizens. Anakin is a young gifted pilot in the Naboo defence force. When the Jedi spring the pilots, have Anakin one of those held captive. He's chosen by the black security guy to pilot the queen's transport because despite his youth, he's one of their best pilots. The Jedi are kind of scared about getting past the blockade. But Anakin's skill enables them to elude the Trade Federation ships. Jedi start to realize the guy is hot stuff.
Simultaneously. Owen and his mother are left behind and become the face of the average Naboo citizen. We see them suffering under Trade Federation rule. In the end Anakin's mother is killed. The war in some way devastates Naboo, either in this movie or the subsequent ones. Owen becomes a refugee and flees to the outer systems to start a new life (Tatooine). While Anakin joins the Jedi order and the subsequent Republican army/fleet.
Anyway the Queen and company are diverted to Tatooine or some other world. People like the Pod Race, so put in some reason for the Pod Race to occur. Anakin is a gifted pilot, so he's the one to participate in the race. Maybe the queen is captured by the Hutts, and Anakin is forced to be their pilot for example. Maybe people can volunteer for the race and the cash can by them their needed parts. Either way if people want the pod race, you can jam that in there somehow. Also as the Padme (in civilian fatigues) and Anakin travel together to find a means to escape planet, they can form their early bond. Put Padme in the role of mother here, watching the race. Instead of a mother feeling anxious watching her son, Padme can be anxious watching someone she's growing attached to. Also it's more believable that they put their faith in the best Naboo pilot they have instead of some slave kid.
Later on, after they've returned to Naboo. Because Anakin is a Naboo fighter pilot already, he leads the attack on the Droid control ship and destroys it through his own ability. Because this is his home world, he has a vested interest in protecting it. He doesn't do it by chance or accident. After the conclusion, he decides to leave Naboo and follow Obi Wan.
The probable reason she's young here is because Anakin is young. Make her older, so she's believable as an elected ruler. Or make her not elected, but rather born into royalty.
When it comes to strategy have her defer to her aides instead. Anakin, the black dude and Jar Jar can determine the best course of action when they return to Naboo. The whole plot of her assault the throne room with her guards can be taken out entirely. Either that, or get rid of the Darth Maul duel. Either way four battles happening simultaneously is too much. The army battle is necessary to distract the droid forces. The space battle is necessary to disable them. Simultaneously capturing the Viceroy is not necessary. Maybe the Viceroy and Darth Maul can escape togther. Allow
Well granted, I was a younger at the time. So maybe I was just more enamoured with the idea of a new Star Wars movie. But personally I think I saw TPM in theatres 7 times? Compare this to AOTC, which, I saw twice. But the second time I found to be really underwhelming (the dazzling effects were no longer dazzling) and ROTS which . . quite frankly I was bored for the first half of the whole movie until the Jedi started getting killed off.
Another point in the TPM, is that despite the fact the Gungan's tech is a bit odd. At least they seem to display some sort of tactics. In the battle they take up a defensive position, with first their bubble shield and then individual shields while trying to attack the oncoming droids with lofted weapons like slings and catapults. The droids meanwhile, first send in the troops them roll in behind them with the tanks (which might be a little counter intuitive (men should support tanks, not the other way around). But maybe the tanks weren't able to breach the bubble shield.
Either way. They had some tactics.
In ROTS the and AOTC it's just mob tactics. A mob of clones attacking a mob of droids. Even the wookies in ROTS show themselves to be pretty dumb when during an enemy attack they all jump out from behind a metal barrier to shake their fists around.
So in that respect, TPM is superior.
In fact, come to think of it. TPM has the best lightsaber duel. The best space battle. And the best ground battle. Yes, the space battle in ROTS is huge and impressive but I've always found it boring because I didn't know what was going on and because the Jedi didn't seem to bothered by the whole backdrop (and that's not even mention Buzz Droids).
Oh it also has the best car chase, if you want to call the Pod Race that too. Better than OW/GG in ROTS or the assassin hunt in AOTC.
1-2: The logic you argued for was the mere existence of the sith cause the Force to be imbalanced, so no matter what that sith did, if he or she was powerful or weak. As long as there is a single sith left alive in the galaxy, the Force is unbalanced. You also said that the Force created Anakin with the express purpose to kill all sith. So the Force goes out of it?s way and creates a sith killer but given that there have been sith around for many centuries why is the Force now suddenly deciding that all sith must die?
3: Since any Jedi can fall at anytime that Jedi would now instantly be a sith and use the darkside and abusing the Force. So then the Force is again unbalanced and a new chosen one must be created.
5-7: I was referring to the time BEFORE the sith were thought to have been wiped out.
Since the films makes no mention that there were more sith at that time we must assume that the same rule of two applied then. So the sith and the jedi have been fighting each other and the sith at one time ruled the galaxy but always there was only ever two siths. So always only two siths vs the whole jedi order. And yet during all that time the Force was unbalanced since there were sith living and yet the Force did not lift a finger to stop them.
1. I find the prophecy underdeveloped in the films. It is just thrown out there with little development and what little we know of it seems to make little sense. Like the issue that the jedi would not be interested in this prophecy in the first place.
As for Harry Potter, the fact that Harry would face Voldemort and only one of them would live was very apparent early on, long before the prophecy was introduced. At least to me.
It is as Dumbledore says, even without the prophecy would Harry just leave Voldemort alone? No he would not, he would fight him because that is who Harry is. He does not need a prophecy telling him what to do.
2) The jedi would not even be interested enough in the prophecy to know about it. It would be filed away and no-one would bother with it. Yet the entire council knows instantly what Qui-Gon is talking about, he does not have to remind them.
Also Ki-Adi says ?impossible? to Qui-Gon saying that he was attacked by a sith lord, not that Anakin is the one in the prophecy. Qui-Gon talks about that later.
3. Again you make my point for me, that the prophecy is underdeveloped. You make up some stuff to explain why they would know about it but none of that is in the films.
What made this prophecy so special, who made it, why do the jedi think it is important?
Based on what little we do know the jedi would not be the slightest bit interested in this prophecy. And yet they are so the question is why. And the films gives us no answers.
4. But a sith is no harder to kill than anyone else, cut off their heads or blow up their ships and they die same as anyone else. It is not like it takes X amount of Force power to even hurt a sith. Also if Anakin is this special weapon, shouldn?t he be given extra special training? Why leave his training to a young knight who has never had an apprentice before?
Isn't criticising the lack exposition as to why and/or how the Jedi would know about a Jedi prophecy (or a prophecy directly concerning the source of their powers) or about their own most feared opponents in history a bit like criticising the lack of exposition regarding Han Solo's knowledge of how to pilot a ship?
The prophecy isnt concerned with who is capable of destroying the sith, it is focused on who will destroy the sith - the idea that everything is written, that things are inevitable, no matter any delay or whatever paths we choose - such themes of destiny are central to Star Wars. Anakin's destiny is to destroy the Sith. Yes, there is uncertainty during the course of the films whether or not Anakin is indeed the person the Jedi suspected he was. But as it turns out, that destiny belonged to nobody else. In the PT the Jedi merely try and put Anakin in the position they believe he is most likely to achieve his destiny with the least delay and to their lesser detriment - a position by their side. But taking the prophecy on its face value, its more than likely Anakin would have gone on to defeat Palpatine regardless of where he went or the path he took. This is why the ambiguity and lack of certainty over Anakin's position as the chosen one is important for the movies and the audience. If we understand Anakin is definitely the chosen one from the first movie, all suspense is lost. We know the eventual outcome. That Lucas wrote the PT in such a fashion to keep us confused - "a prophecy that misread could have been" etc. - was to the benefit of the 1-6 saga as a whole.
Sorry, double post.