PT TPM underrated

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by matt0812, Jul 16, 2010.

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  1. Danaan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2008
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    No, because the prophecy is turned, it seems, into a major motivation for why Anakin is accepted into the Jedi Order. It is certainly the major motivation for why Qui-Gon makes it his quest to get the boy trained.

    Han Solo's knowledge of how to pilot a ship is simply a skill- we don't need to know how he aquired it for the plot to work, he only needs to use it.

    This is not to imply that the Prophecy couldn't or shouldn't be vague. Just that it would be a good thing if it made sense, logically. I think Nordom points out how it doesn't, given the history of the Jedi and the Sith. Heck, even the defenders of the prophecy seem confused about what "bring balance to the Force" actually means: If the Sith, by the virtue of simply existing, unbalance the Force as a whole, then why are the Jedi convinced that the Sith have been extinct? I mean, if the Sith have existed all this time, the Force should have been out of balance for 1000 years. The Jedi might be arrogant and complacent, but surely they should have noticed this over such a long time span?

    If the Sith have to act to unbalance the Force, then the Force probably hasn't been out of balance for the past 1000 years, and then it makes no sense to accept the boy into the Jedi Order, because there is no problem in need of fixing.

    The best defence I've seen so far is the notion that he is accepted as a safe-guard in case the Sith have returned, but what proof is presented to the Jedi at the end of TPM that this is actually the case: a Iridonian with scary tattoos and a red lightsaber. And that's proof they have when the heroes come to Coruscant, and yet the Jedi send a grand total of one maverick master and his apprentice to deal with what might be the most significant threat to the Order for the past 1000 years. You'll forgive me if I think that Windu's talk about using "all available resources" rings somewhat hollow to my ears...

    Maybe we should evaluate the mythical qualities of the prophecy against those in Greek myth. The first one that comes to mind is that of Oedipus: He shall kill his father and bed his mother. Unclear? Mysterious? Illogical?
  2. shanerjedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2010
    star 4
    No they wouldn't necessarily notice that over a millenium. Why would they? But when a maverick jedi brings a boy to them saying he thinks he encountered a vergence in the force surrounding said boy and at the same time then talks of an attacker who was skilled in the jedi arts. These simultaneous events would make them take notice.
    And the reason they think the sith have been extinct for a millenium is simple: because they think they killed them all or that all the sith destroyed themselves. They haven't had any encounters over a millenium and thus think none exist anymore.
  3. EHT Manager: New Films

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    ^ Exactly. I'll add that their logic is arrogant, or at least flawed, but still understandable. People use logic like that all the time. The bigger question is why they immediately gave Qui-Gon such a hard time when he suggested that his attacker was a Sith, and that Anakin could be the Chosen One. It's one thing to think what you think, but to flatly refute anyone who brings a new observation into it for consideration seems pretty stubborn. So you assumed wrong about the Sith being gone... time to update your information. And the Chosen One Qui-Gon alludes to is the point of the prophecy that they all purport to believe in... yet when presented with the notion that they may have actually found him, their immediate reaction is "no way".

  4. sluggo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2001
    star 2
    They weren't sure if Qui-Gon was right. Thats all. Because they didn't say - Oh my god the sith are back and this boy ist he choosen one - they are arrogant?

    They need to be sure of a situation is before they act. The Sith returning would be a HUGE threat that would need to be dealt with, so they want to be sure. If someone ran up to you and "hey man, the Nazi's are back in power in Germany" would you start acting on it right away, or go find out if he was correct first?
  5. Danaan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2008
    star 4
    Because that's what they do - feel the Force. It's really the heart and soul of being a Jedi, isn't it? And now you are suggesting that of all the Jedi, or even just all the Jedi Masters that have existed for the past 1000 years, none of them, not a single one, ever once sat down and meditated on the nature of the Force? Isn't that like assuming that no philosoopher would ask questions about the nature of life, or the meaning of life? I just find it really hard to believe.

    A potential rebuttal would be that lots of masters noticed that the Force was unbalanced, but that the leadership silenced them because it would imply that the Sith are still in existence. However, that attitude implies that the Jedi have been dogmatic for the past 1000 years, not just the past generation or so, and I'd find that less than plausible given the meta-physcis of the GFFA. After all, the Jedi Council is founded on using their instincts, intuition and going what feels right to do, because that is the way of the Force (for both Jedi and Sith, I might add). Its action therefore has to be consistent with this to come across as believable.
  6. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    First of all, you gotta take this kind of stuff with a grain of salt. Whether someone says "A thousand years" or "A thousand generations" it doesn't really matter exactly how long it is, its a thousand. Also, the Jedi in the prequels do use their feelings, its their focus that throws them off. Yoda attempts to look at the boy's future, and finds it clouded. This indicates an inability to see the dark side. Apparently, things like fear anger and pain are frowned upon so much that it affects their perception. This isn't really about any existing thousand-year order, nor is it actually supposed to be. Even if they DID sense the Sith earlier on, it wouldn't be believable. It would also make the story much more dull and predictable.
  7. shanerjedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2010
    star 4
    I think the Unifying versus Living Force has something to do with it as well.

    This is one reason why Qui-Gon is the one who finds Anakin. The other jedi are almost, yes, dogmatic in their thought processes. What is the first thing Ki-Adi Mundi responds with when Jinn brings up the Sith? "Impossible!"

    These guys were ripe for a takedown and the Sith had reached their peak and were ready for the strike.


    Remember this other key line of dialogue:

    Mace: I do not think the sith could have returned without us knowing.

    Well yeah they could because you thought they were extinct and you became complacent and arrogant.
  8. d_arblay Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2005
    star 4
    I think you missed my point. Nordom was questioning how the Jedi would actually know about the prophecy, or indeed matters concerning the force being in balance.
    I countered that knowledge of these issues, like Han Solo?s ability to pilot a ship via his introduction as ?Captain of the Millennium Falcon?, would be fundamental given their status and training as Jedi and therefore, exposition on how they know of said things is assumed. Things which touch on history, threats to a Jedi?s self-preservation, and the nature of the force itself would be central to a Jedi Padawan?s theoretical education. It?s like Christians believing that The Devil will once again rise and/or that Jesus will come again to save us in our darkest hour ? such beliefs and predictions date back far but are not ignored by those educated into the faith.

    That issues regarding the prophecy in TPM are left somewhat under-exposed and ambiguous to us does not mean they are ambiguous to the Jedi themselves. Any lack of exposition regarding what the prophecy means from a Jedi?s perspective is adequately stretched out and clarified over the next two films - we soon understand they are quite certain the prophecy speaks of the Sith having risen once more and being destroyed by a chosen one; ?is he not to destroy the sith and bring balance to the force??, ?so the prophecy says?. Over the course of the six films we are led to question (and indeed The Jedi are too) whether or not these interpretations are correct ? but ultimately, the Jedi interpretation is proven correct and, as Lucas says, Anakin/Vader does fulfil the prophecy by destroying the Sith ? as it turns out, those Sith being The Emperor and himself.

    I understand where you're coming from on this too - that we should immediately understand Anakin's significance to the Jedi. But I think to knight any character with the tag "The Chosen One" is really ample enough - it covers all bases; power, skill, opportunity and destiny. His significance, while not neccesarily immediately understood, is more than amply established.

    As to how The Force could be unbalanced without The Jedi knowing, this can be explained via one or two routes or indeed a combination of both; firstly that The Sith have been able to disguise their presence, which is really heavily implied anyway - Palpatine when he comes to power is the perfect example - "our ability to use the force has diminished", "hard to see the dark side is" etc. Secondly, one can also reason that, though The Sith have been in existence for a long period undetected, its quite possible that The Force is only unbalanced when the Sith become active in their dark deeds... as Lucas says "they were patient. they've waited a long time before we get to Episode 1 when they finally make their move and try to take over the galaxy". Its feasible that the force only becomes disrupted at this point.
  9. EHT Manager: New Films

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    Exactly... sad, but true. To answer the other question posed to me, of course they should investigate before jumping to action, but their initial reaction doesn't even show a desire to do that investigation.
  10. Danaan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2008
    star 4
    Just to make things clear: I don't have any problem with Jedi being arrogant and complacent and in their hubris simply missing that the Sith are still out there. Hubris is a great theme of epic storylines and certainly not amiss in SW.

    My problem is with the wording with the prophecy, a wording that has meta-physical consequences (i.e, "what the heck does 'bring balance to the Force' mean?).

    I'd prefer a wording like: "The Sith shall rise again, and when they do, the Chosen One shall come and bring an end to them/their reign". It avoids the whole issue of the properties of the Force, while still setting up the potential misunderstanding - that the Chosen One will be a Jedi champion.

    Compare to the Greek myth prophesies. Poseidon built the walls of Troy and said that those would never be destroyed by Man. And so it was. It made the Trojans complacent and safe in winning the ultimate victory. Little did they anticipate the cunning of Odysseus...
  11. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    This. Also, there is a reason that Obi-Wan and Yoda's OT philosophies revolved much more around the Living Force than the Unifying Force. They learned.
  12. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    Again, boring and predictable. What the heck do YOU think "bring balance to the Force" means?
  13. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    First off all a rather bad comparison, Han presents himself as a pilot and then we see him being able TO pilot a ship so no contradiction. In the case of the prophecy we are instead given somewhat contra dictionary information. The Jedi know all know about a prophecy about someone who will kill all sith and yet they also believe that all sith are long since dead. So the question becomes why the jedi would pay any attention to a prophecy that they all knew to be wrong? Other questions that arise are, since all Jedi have an ability to see the future what made this prophecy so special that it was more than that?

    Second I respectfully submit that you fail to understand my argument.

    I was responding to people making the argument that all jedi believe that the prophecy means ?Kill all Sith?. IF that is so THEN, since all jedi also believe that ALL sith are long since dead, they would not be very interested in this prophecy.
    It might be written down somewhere but the Jedi would pay it no mind as they would think it had already come to pass. So I found it strange that all the jedi immediately knew what the prophecy was. Why would they be interested in a prophecy they all knew to be wrong?
    So the problem with the logic ?bring balance?=?kill all sith? is that such a prophecy would be seen by the jedi as uninteresting as they all believe the sith to be long since dead.
    If the prophecy was made after the sith were thought to be wiped out why would the jedi interpret ?bring balance?=?kill all sith? when the sith are already dead?
    Also new sith can arise any time a jedi falls to the dark side which again makes the Force unbalanced and again would require the services of a chosen one.
    If the Jedi are aware that the Force is unbalanced, which it would have to be since there are sith still alive. And if they believe that the only way the Force can be unbalanced is due to there being sith alive. Then why are they so surprised that the sith are back?
    If they know that the Force is unbalanced then that would be direct evidence that the sith are still around. Unless of course the Jedi can not sense that the Force is unbalanced.

    That the Force only gets unbalanced when the sith gets too powerful makes more sense to me but I was responding to people that argued that the mere existence of the sith means that the Force gets unbalanced. That even if the Sith just sits there and does nothing the Force is still thrown out of balance.

    So really my problem is with the implications the logic of ?bring balance?=?kill all sith?.
    Like that the jedi would have little interest in such a prophecy and that the Force have then been unbalanced for a very long time indeed.

    Lastly the comparison with Christians and the devil is also not very good. The devil is a supernatural being, immortal in a sense. The sith are mortals, powerful yes but living beings. So there has never been a situation where all Christians have been totally sure ?The devil is dead and will never come back?. The devil is more akin to the Dark Side.
    A better comparison would be Sith=Pagans and say specifically people who worshiped the Norse Gods. These people were quite a bit of trouble for Christians some time ago but less so now. So if there was a prophecy today about ?Balance of the faith? would Christians assume that this meant they should go and kill those Pagans that follows the Norse gods?

    Regards
    Nordom


  14. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    Well I would think of something more unique and positive than just killing people. Something that had never been done before is someone turning BACK from the Dark Side and everyone though that was impossible.
    And yet Anakin did it. So now the Dark Side is not permanent anymore. That now it is possible to turn away from evil and change your life.

    Regards
    Nordom
  15. Danaan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2008
    star 4
    I honestly have no idea what it means. I find the formulation quite confusing. How do you balance the Force by killing people, anyway? And I'm asking this because Anakin "fulfilled the prophecy" by killing Palpatine and sacrificing his own life in the process.

    Also, while my off-the-top-of-my-head phrasing probably can be further refined, I would be hard-pressed to argue that the prophecies of Greek myth are boring and predictable. We're talking about stories that have had sufficient attraction to be remember across space and time for some 2500 years...
  16. EHT Manager: New Films

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    star 6
    True, Anakin was the first to do that. But... so once Anakin turns back to the light, instead of saving Luke by throwing Palpatine down the shaft (thus eliminating the Sith), he should have convinced Palpatine to a)stop frying Luke and b)sit down for some therapy and heart-to-heart wherein Anakin would convince Palpatine that the dark side was wrong and he really needed to turn back too? :p
  17. shanerjedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2010
    star 4
    Are you suggesting Obi-Wan and Yoda have a actual character arc in the saga? Them's fightin' words around here. ;)

    edit:

    You're forgetting the most important part of the whole JC meeting in TPM: The Chosen One that Qui-Gon believes he has found. It is the two occurrences, dark warrior attacking and convergence in the Force that makes the Jedi take pause, not just the Sith.

    It's the combination of these two factors. Remember, Qui-Gon doesn't believe that things happen by accident. He thinks something larger is at work.

    So they wouldn't forget a Prophecy that has two important ingredients needed to trigger it: the sith and the Chosen One.

    Those two together are what the Prophecy is about, not just the return of the sith.
  18. shanerjedi Jedi Master

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    Mar 17, 2010
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  19. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Killing Palpatine is a positive. The Empire was a negative.

    The Force is greater in scope than Anakin; thus, even though the balancing of the Force depends upon his actions, he doesn't balance the Force merely by the act of turning back itself. What you're proposing sounds more like Christian theology.
  20. shanerjedi Jedi Master

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    Mar 17, 2010
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    Edit: Nevermind. Misunderstood context of the post.
  21. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

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    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    You gotta admit, he turned back at the exact moment the war ended. In Star Wars, the idea of war is like omg, and the cycle of war exists because of the dark side holding power.
  22. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    Again you miss my point, I am not talking about the Jedi dismissing Anakin as a potential chosen one, I am talking about why the Jedi would even be interested in the prophecy.
    Take a time some 50 years before TPM, all Jedi believe the Sith long since dead.
    Now a young Qui-Gon stumbles across the prophecy in an old Jedi history book.
    He reads about a prophecy about someone who will kill all Sith. Now Qui-Gon knows all the Sith have been dead for almost 1000 years so why would he be interested in this prophecy? Why would any of the Jedi show any particular interest in a prophecy they all KNEW to be flat out wrong? They might read about in some book but then they would just as quickly dismiss it. But all the jedi in the council immediately knows what Qui-Gon is talking about, like they have made a detailed study of the prophecy only hours ago.
    But again the question is why. The jedi believe the sith are dead and since they are dead the Force must therefore be balanced so any prophecy talking about someone balancing something that already is balanced would not be of interest to them.

    Regards
    Nordom
  23. d_arblay Force Ghost

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    May 26, 2005
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    Just because The Sith are considered extinct at the time does not mean they cannot conceivably come back into existence. Being a Sith is an ideal. For example, all it takes is a rogue Jedi to abuse their powers for much darker, selfish deeds and you pretty much have a Sith whether they like it or not (Dooku took that path, as did Anakin). It is prophecised that The Sith will once again require defeating. For your logic to work here, you have to prove the prophecy dates back before the Sith were ruled extinct the millenia prior to TPM. However, the movies themselves are wisely ambigious (as they are by design on many of the specifics) as to the exact period the prophecy came to be known.
    I'm not sure I understand this part but I'll go with what I think you're getting at.

    All speculative of course, but I would suggest it was pure wisdom rather than an exact vision - when Luke attempts to interpret his visions in ESB, he is told "always in motion is the future". That evil (or in this case, The Sith) will once again rise is likely a wise assumption on the part of The Jedi. It would be taught to counter complacency. That the force would also give birth to one destined to defeat that evil is perhaps a matter of faith from the Jedi perspective, but it only takes those elements to form the prophecy as an accepted teaching and belief. The prophecy wasn't precise on the period that such a thing would occur either, so it suggests to me the whole thing was more akin to a wise assumption than specific vision.
  24. Nordom Jedi Master

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    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4

    Ok say the prophecy was made AFTER the sith were first thought to have been wiped out. Now this means that the jedi think that it is very possible to kill all sith WITHOUT there being a chosen one. So why would they now think that the only way to kill all the sith is by there being a chosen one?
    So why exactly would the jedi assume that the words ?bring balance? means ?kill all sith?? They have already done that once before and apparently without some chosen one so why interpret the words that way?
    Second problem, if the Jedi are aware that the sith might indeed return and have a prophecy speaking about this, why then are they so quick to dismiss the return of the sith?

    We know that all jedi can see the future but this vision is not exact and can change.
    Here instead we are seemingly given something that IS exact, no if?s and but?s about it.
    The prophecy WILL happen. So if this was just a normal Jedi vision why did they think it was some prophecy? What made it special?
    Lastly if the prophecy was just an old warning ?the Sith might return? why not just say that? Why muddle things by talking about the balance of the Force and why involve a chosen one at all. The last time the Jedi killed all the siths by themselves, why would they need a chosen one now?

    In closing if the sith can arise again at any time that means that the Force will again be unbalanced and the Force would again have to create a new chosen one.
    Since the Sith can be killed in any number of ways and they can come back at any time why create some chosen one to do this when it could be done in other ways? And the actions of the chosen one could be nullified a year or two later.

    Regards
    Nordom


  25. d_arblay Force Ghost

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    May 26, 2005
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    Well The Sith actually destroyed themselves if we go with what Lucas says, not to mention what the "rule of two" implies. And funnily enough, the "chosen one" the prophecy speaks of eventually becomes a Sith before fulfilling his destiny as one of them. Something to think about...
    I think you're assuming the prophecy is perhaps some ancient stone with specific words of warning engraved about a "chosen one" who will "bring balance to the force" and little else. But we dont know its origins or how explicit it was. The term "bring balance" may be a more contemporary, succint wording or rationalisation of something that was originally of broader description.
    Qui-Gon doesn't dismiss it. Yoda doesn't dismiss it. Only Ki-Adi-Mundi seems certain. What Windu says is the most telling "I do not believe the Sith could have returned without us knowing". There's your answer. The Jedi believe(d) that if and when the Sith did return, they should be able to sense it. Qui-Gon speaks of sighting something they didnt foresee. Its natural there would be a little scepticism given they have been educated that they should sense such things. But as Yoda reminds them quickly - "hard to see the dark side is"
    I wasn't saying it was that. Faith that evil exists and will rise is more a philosophy - the idea it can only ever be defeated for a short while in relative terms. And who is to say in past times when evil has been defeated, the one who succeeded in doing so wasn't considered a "chosen one" or labelled one in retrospect?

    You seem to argue that the flaw in this whole prophecy is that we know too little. I argue that this is where its strength comes from in a storytelling sense. Thats likely the root of your cynicism but its certainly the root of my enthusiasm. We know just enough to keep us intrigued and keep us piecing the bits together to possible conclusions, but not enough for it to be overbearing, confused or contradictory (something prone to happen when you try to pin down abstract, outlandish ideas such as these).
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