PT TPM underrated

Excellent post. The big problem with TPM is the lack of tension. There are a few reasons for this: lack of a real feeling of danger, lack of a truly threatening antagonist, and the lack of any character arcs of significance tied in with the final action.

If old GL had done better in the above respects, supporters would be able to say they loved TPM instead merely liking it.

One other quick response: it's simply not true that GL had no chance of impressing the majority of fans and critics with the TPM based up on prior expectations. Universal agreement may be impossible for any movie, but many films have lived up to huge expectations. The Godfather 2 comes to mind, as does Inception, T2, Avatar, and Aliens. It's really a thin argument for GL supporters.

 

How old was this person? Unless your a little kid or just not paying any attention to the movies,it's pretty obvious that Palp is Sideous,especially after TPM.

 

I think TPM's character arcs are there, but in a manner that relates to the PT as a whole more so than the traditional point A/B resolutions of ANH. Anakin's childhood exuberance in wanting to be a Jedi is confirmed when he's accepted into the order despite that the man who really championed his cause is now dead. As we see in Clones, Anakin's Jedi upbringing isn't all that he hoped for ("dreams pass in time" et al.), thus the TPM Anakin confirmation arc is granted an ironic twist in light of Episode II onward. Obi-Wan goes from novice to knight, of course, and similarly the manner in which he "inherits" Anakin's cause adds to the notion of how Qui-Gon's passing was a major catalyst for the trouble that really comes to light later on in the trilogy. Perhaps the point is supposed to be that Obi-Wan at the end of TPM didn't go through Luke/Han style growth where he was obviously ready for bigger and better things, and that even though things appear different in some ways Obi-Wan is still the semi-stubborn young Padawan from the beginning of the film who sees pathetic lifeforms where Qui-Gon saw worthy causes.

 

But... he did.

MACE WINDU: But which one was destroyed, the master or the apprentice?

Immediately followed by a shot of Palpatine.

But... we did.

DARTH MAUL: Tatooine is sparsely populated. If the trace was correct, I will find them quickly, Master.
DARTH SIDIOUS: Move against the Jedi first... you will then have no difficulty taking the Queen back to Naboo, where she will sign the treaty.
DARTH MAUL: At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi. At last we will have revenge.

 

But that's exactly my point. Anakin has character issues on Coruscant, and he has character issues during the denouement after all the fighting is finished. But there's that whole big action spectacle serving as the climactic centerpiece of the film, where any character development that might have been stops dead in its tracks while we watch the pretty effects and choreography.

 

Well, to me the action helps add to characters. Anakin's exploits likely play a part in the order letting him in, as does Qui-Gon's death, and these events in turn are key to setting the stage for the conflicts in II/III. Was there room for more quiet character exposition stuff? Sure, but then again I'd also say some of the Death Star swashbuckling in ANH could've been cut in order to build a more in depth look at Leia's reaction to seeing her home world destroyed. Star Wars is Star Wars, though, so I also have to admit that interrupting the exposition for action is a major part of the whole deal.

 

I watched RLM and Confused Mathew's review of the prequels. As much as I agree with some of their points, I think that if you subjected the original trilogy to the same treatment you could certainly find things to complain about I love you I know does that sound like a good line to you. The acting is better in the originals and I think much in the prequels could be salvaged had there been better actors for Anakin and Padme.

Now lets agree to disagree and lets all get a drink my treat.

 

Arawn, you seem to be missing the point of my argument, or perhaps I'm just not being clear enough (my fault, I'm sure). Of course we see Sidious talking with Maul -- but we don't see Senator Palpatine actively taking an antagonist role in the film as Sidious. I'm arguing it would have been more powerful to see Palpatine taking more overt action as a Sith Lord. Instead, as you show above, his antagonism is merely suggested via juxtaposition (the cut to Palpatine).

I'm not arguing that it's a huge mystery, the identity of Palpatine (for some it was), but that it was a mistake not to use him in TPM more in the way Vader was portrayed -- as a threatening villain, e.g., choking a rival or an under-performing henchman. Imagine Palpatine force-choking his own apprentice. That would have really sent a message about the malevolent nature of the Sith.

Or as others have mentioned, Maul could have been a more villainous threat, or the suffering of the Naboo people could have actually been shown; there is a lot that could have been done to ramp up the tension, but it wasn't.

Storytelling 101, show don't tell. If the audience is supposed to feel real tension in the finale, they need to actually fear the antagonists. But we didn't. At least, I didn't, and I suspect many people feel the same.

 

The whole Sio Bibble thing was answered in the movie - remember the scene after Obi and Anakin meet? Where the Viceroy says, ".........and YOU Governor are going to die much sooner than your people, I'm afraid" meaning that no one was killed yet. And Obi already said it was just a trick to get them to answer back.

 

"Wipe them out. All of them."

Of course not. When he's in the guise of Senator Palpatine, he has to act like Senator Palpatine. The closest you're going to get is his conversation with Padme on Coruscant, which is mirrored by a similar scene in the TCW film. In both cases we begin to see a glimmer of his true nature poking through.

 

Nice try, but we don't see that supposed massacre, so AgonyE's point is still valid.

 

We see Palpatine's intent, which demonstrates the "malevolent nature of the Sith".

"My feelings tell me they will destroy you."

We don't need to see Sith choking their own underlings to know they are malevolent. We see them instigating the invasion of a peaceful planet and ordering the execution of Jedi along with anyone else who will stand in their way.

 

I don't have a problem with this movie at all. AOTC on the other hand...

 

Great. So basically the Sith in this film are supposed to be theme park villains? They say stuff that sounds stereotypically evil, but we never see the results of their heinous crimes? They come off as bumbling buffoons, then, not masters of all that is evil. Not to mention that the "invasion" itself was pretty tame. Just a bunch of troops marching through empty streets. No killings, no executions, nothing. Now, if they really wanted to up the evil, the invasion would have turned Naboo into a charnel house. Thousands dead, houses burning, droids in the cities and countryside dealing death and destruction on a whim. It'd also give Amidala a much better reason for ousting Valorum. If he couldn't respond to a massacre, then he'd deserve to go. Also, it would speak much worse of Palpatine, who is setting his own planet ablaze simply for the Chancellor's job.

We're not talking about ROTS here, either. This is exclusive to TPM, so we don't see the execution of Jedi. Qui-Gon wasn't executed, he was killed in open combat. It doesn't really absolve the Sith, but the context is different.

 

Guys, for some reason my last post was Anonymous - just wanted to correct this, and also to make a slight correction to what I wrote (below):

First of all, the title "The Phantom Menace" seems to convey a shadowy, indistinct force of evil that can't exactly be pinpointed. The image of Sideous talking to Maul on Coruscant was just enough to convey his presence, and to have him "throwing his weight around" would have been overkill, at least in TPM. I think the point here was to show hiw as working "behind the scenes" in TPM and AOTC, and then to show him in his full, evil force in ROTS. After all, if he had been shown as very active in the first two prequels, the scenes where he fought Mace & the other Jedi & Yoda in ROTS wouldn't have been as significant (at least not IMHO). Going along with this, the reason Sideous didn't do more in TPM was that he was having Maul do all of his dirty work.

And, as everyone who saw TPM noticed, the film was not supposed to be a downer, like the following two films. It was supposed to show the beginning of the evil that would eventually overtake the republic - that being said, it had more of a positive feeling, i.e. Anakin saving the day, Maul's defeat, the great celebration at the end, etc. Throughout all of this, however, there was the distinct sense of foreboding - i.e. Palpatine & Maul, Mace Windu's conversation during Qui-gon's funeral, knowing Anakin's eventual fate, etc.

Lastly, IMHO it would have been a huge mistake to have had Darth Sideous force-choke Darth Maul, since it would have shown the character weak & vulnerable - this is something that I don't think G.L. wanted to convey until the very end when Maul was sliced by Obi-wan - so, I'm extremely glad nothing like this was in the film. This would have been like showing Vader force-choking Boba Fett in ESB - an image like that would have definitely taken away from the cool & bad-a** aspects of the character.

 

Do we really not see them, or do we see them but try to neutralize them by playing semantic games?

And are we forgetting that these results continue on into the rest of the films?

Maybe you need to watch the film again...

After being ordered to kill the Jedi. But I thought you said there were no killings. Make up your mind.

If only Lucas had gone for that R rating, I could believe in the Sith...

 

This.

 

TPM underrated?

Yes.

There are things I dislike, but all in all I enjoy it a lot. It is my third favourite

 

I agree with the OP that TPM is underrated, at least when it comes to the 'mainstream'; I can attest from personal, first-hand experience that, amongst the SW fandom (or at least the portion of the fandom that frequents this board), the percentage of people who like the film is actually greater than the percentage of people who don't like the film, even though it might seem otherwise due to the peculiar fact that the people who like the film are not nearly as vocal as the people who dislike the film.

 

Agreed.

 

I just can't get into it , the characters are so dull , no chemistry , I just don't care about them , except maybe Shmi and she's just abandoned.

and there's just no getting round JJB , Lucas obviously loves him , there's so much of the irritating creature .

pod race is good to look at , that's about it.

 

The last two times I've watched it (the most recent being yesterday with my family) I've been struck by how ponderous the whole thing is. I don't know whether watching it with the kids makes it appear more so, but sequences like those on Tatooine and Coruscant really have nothing for children to latch onto (but then again, Attack Of The Clones and The Empire Strikes Back have some pretty boring sequences from a child's perspective too).

That said, the beginning of the film, the pod race and everything from "Wipe them out, all of them" are an absolute joy.

 

This is the way i see it:

TPM - GL was still fresh from taking a break from making movies. he was a bit rusty. Though TPM wasn't bad, it was like a bed time story: poor kid got special abilities and was noticed, got adopted and saved the day. Plus, there was this annoying gungan to make kids laugh.

AotC - It was good, but it still LACKS something

RotS - He learned alot from the previous two and created something that would totally 'redeem' the whole prequel trilogy. ^_^

 

Aye. On watching ROTS, I remember a reviewer saying this: "What I wouldn't give for the playful, assured Lucas who directed this to go back and redo The Phantom Menace."

Personally, any concerns I have with TPM and AOTC are small beer compared to what some members of the online community think. That said, ROTS remains the most fulfilling of the prequels, for me at least.

 

TPM Director's Cut = more Maul and add something that would make him a bit 3 dimensional
less Jar Jar and Gungans!

^__^