TPM's Appeal: Did the Media Make it Appear that ALL SW Fans Were Dissapointed With It?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by ST-TPM-ASF-TNE, Apr 13, 2002.

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  1. dahveed72 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    star 3
    it just a statement of fact, and the proof is all over this board. Get over it.

    And Duckman, hopefully you see by Shelley's last response to your post that some people believe what they want to believe. Even the most obvious points, things gushers, bashers, and indiferents take for granted, cant be accepted by the Shelley's of the world because they interfere with the construct of "reality" these people have created(i knew i could tie in The Matrix somehow). Which is why its so arduous having to wade through book-length responses from Shelley and others who are so ardent, so desperate in their defence of this construct.

    Oh, btw, The Phantom Menace was a dismal failure in every way that matters to me. The box office was a given from day one, and the only surprise (at least until it opened and everyone actually saw the "movie) was that it didnt overtake Titanic.

  2. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    --For every negative spin on TPM, we can't ignore the positive buzz that went into it. The media didn't have to do any of this but they did, because they are excited about Star Wars too.--
    Or because they wanted to use it for their own publicity purposes? The media isn't some innocent bystander. The first SW movie in 16 years was HUGE news. The media feeds on publicity. It wanted to be part of the hype.

    The media has biases and agendas, and the same news sources which hyped the movie to the sky immediately turned around and slammed it as being "overhyped" once the backlash set in. It covered its own rear very nicely, and had it both ways.

    --Now, of course, people loved TPM dearly, but one cannot ignore the group of people who were dissapointed as well.--
    No one is ignoring them. The reason this thread exists is because the people who loved TPM dearly were ignored.

    --Whether that is in the majority or the minority we'll never know -- unless we did a door-to-door consensus or something. I personally think it's a large portion of dissapointed fans (my coworkers feel TPM was, at best, lukewarm, so do my friends, etc).--
    That's your personal experience.

    --..but I guess my opinion is not scientific so it's a moot point here--
    No, it's just that it's your personal experience. For every disliker of TPM who says that everyone they know hated TPM, there is a liker of TPM who can say the opposite. Neither is a moot point; it just shows that people disagree and have different personal experiences.
  3. dahveed72 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    star 3
    And ill say it again for those of you who have a limited understanding of journalism and the press:

    The story is not "some fans love TPM" or "Jar-jar embraced by young fans" or even "TPM does great box office".

    The story is "Many fans deeply disappointed in new SW film" or "Jar-jar 'annoying' to many older fans" or "The new film will have a 'darker feel, closer to the original saga' and 'no silly characters or kids', says the Lucasfilm document." These are stories.

    And lets keep in mind the enormous amount of positive coverage and spin leading up to the movie's release. I followed alot of it and cant remember feeling anything but excitement and huge anticipation as the premiere date approached. The negative stuff started AFTER people got to see it.

    If the media actually had some kind of vendetta against the movie, why didnt they sabotage it BEFORE it came out?

    And if SOME of the stories were more negative in tone than necessary(matter of opinion), keep in mind that many if not most of these journalists SAW TPM too. This fact alone makes their negative bent understandable, albeit somewhat unprofessional. But this is just a devil's advocate type inference on my part. The truth is the product itself (the movie) was so bad that it left Lucas and Lucasfilm and everyone else involved open to negative press. Sorry, but thats how it works, and why should a stupid movie be exempt from this?


  4. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    dahveed, your opinions aren't facts, no matter how much you try to make them into facts.

    And you're very insulting. I've been banned for saying less insulting stuff than you have repeatedly said.
  5. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Next time you're at a party and you manage to bring Star Wars up, talk about TPM in "gushing" terms. The person you're talking to will talk about what they liked.

    Then the next time you manage to worm it into a conversation, talk about it in "bashing" terms. The person you're talking to will talk about what they disliked.

    It's spooky... almost as if most people really didn't care either way...



    [edit- If the media actually had some kind of vendetta against the movie, why didnt they sabotage it BEFORE it came out?

    Because nobody wanted to read that story. ]
  6. dahveed72 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    star 3
    Thats true. I think for the average moviegoer, TPM elicited COMPLETE INDIFERENCE more than anything else. And if it hadnt been a SW movie, id "feel" the same way. Good point, SRN!!
  7. Lukecash Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 4
    A couple of things Dahveed72

    As a former Journalism student and had worked in newspaper field, I can tell you that the press spins their story to what they want to tell. The orignal Newsweek story, was about Lucas changing his merchandising strategy. It had the headline "Star Wars Bounces Back" Very positive spin.

    There was NO admission of the actual MOVIE being an artistic or box office failure for George Lucas."I've liked every movie I've ever made" He said on the DVD, "No matter how it perfomed at the box office."

    However subsequent articles had the same information, but different Headlines "Lucas admits Star Dog", "Lucas-Phantom Menance a Dissapointment," Ect. ect.

    "The Built In Repeat Theory"

    The Built in fan repeat argument doesn't hold up. Two products had a wold wide influence in terms of built in fandom: Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings. The Lord of the Rings had especially large fanbase of three generations.

    In terms of World Wide Grose-
    Harry Potter is number #2.
    The Phantom Menance is #3
    The Fellowship of the Ring is number# 6

    In terms of U.S. Domestic gross:

    The Phantom Menance is number 4
    Harry Potter is number 7
    Lord of the Rings 11

    Oh and the much lauded Matrix- 67

    Star Wars-while has a large fanbase, does NOT have a huge hard core world wide fan base. Tolkien, on the other hand DOES...and yet The Phantom Menance has beten it, in World Wide and Domestic B.O.. Harry Potter-enjoyed by both Girls and Boys, as well as fantasy loving BOOK reading male and female adults-had a bigger built-in audience. Phantom Menance still defeated them in the U.S.

    If the "Hard core" fans were dissapoined in TPM-then the numbers should reflect that.

    (source. www.themovie-times.com)

    If it was successful is should have beaten titanic

    In an intresting part of the above mentioned website. It has an adjusted top 100 movies of all time.It is not considered 100% accurate, but it is adjusted for inflation. It does not count video sales ect. ect.


    1) Gone with the Wind
    2) Star Wars
    3) Sound of Music
    4) E.T.
    5) Titanic
    6) The Ten Commandments
    7) Jaws
    8) Doctor Zhivago
    9) The Jungle Book
    10) Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs
    11) Ben Hur
    12) 101 Dalmations
    13) The Exorcist
    14) The Empire Stikes Back
    15) The Return of the Jedi
    16) The Phantom Menance (It was only 8 million behind Jedi...)

    37) Harry Potter
    43) The Lord of the Rings

    Quite frankly- Lucas didn't expect it to meet Titanic levels of perfomance.

    Adjusted is Gone with the Wind $1,001,000

    Star Wars pulled in $865.81(including Re-releses)

    People were expecting Lucas to equal what he did with the Original Star Wars. What he did do was equal the sequels. This is why people called TPM a "Failure"

    Titanic (adjusted) only reached $638 Three Hundred Million dollars less than the original Star Wars.
  8. DarthHomer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2000
    star 5
    Good point, Lukecash. Too many people wanted TPM to equal ANH's performance (both by breaking every box office record and capturing the imagination of a whole generation) but the FOURTH film in a series (even if it's called Episode I) could never have that impact. It did about as well, both financially and critically, as ESB and ROTJ did on their original release, which I'm sure is all Lucas expected.
    I do find myself agreeing with Dahveed that the media only reported TPM was a huge disappointment because it was the most interesting story. "TPM - it's okay, I guess" wouldn't have sold as much copy. :)
  9. NORTHSTAR Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 1
    TPM's Appeal: Did the Media Make it Appear that ALL SW Fans Were Dissapointed With It?

    No not at all. The media went easy on the lukewarm reviews by the fans that were disapointed. The media did this out of respect for George Lucas.
  10. JohnWilliams00 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2002
    star 4
    Lukecash, that's a good post, but I wouldn't call TPM a failure just because it didn't earn as much, say, ANH or Titanic.

    TPM did very well at the box-office, but one can attribute that to the many hardcore fans...LOTR and Harry Potter fans may outnumber SW fans (possibly or possibly not), but the fanaticism of SW fans is unrivaled in my opinion.

    And that's what helped the box-office considerably. Repeat attendence of the most hardcore fans. There were many who literally went to see TPM over 15-20 times. Multiply that by a $7-8 ticket, and that's roughly $120 to $160 contributed to the box-office, by just one person. Now, multiply that by millions of fans and that's a monumental amount of cash.

    Now, I'm not saying anything bad about extreme hardcore fans, but I think they were the ones who tended to overlook any flaws and just enjoy the experience, whether the film was mediocre or incredible in their eyes, it didn't matter. I don't think any person went to see LOTR or Harry Potter 20 times....maybe a few, but not anything like TPM.

    But box-office aside (which was successful), TPM was lauded as a dissapointment most likely because of the movie itself. The critics and media don't look at box-office in the end, but at what how the movie affected them as a whole. And for some, to be fair, it was great, but again, I have to bring up the dissapointed and indifferent masses as well. For newcomers, scenes like the Senate or Tatooine, I've read and been told, are seen as "yawning moments" or perfect moments to "stretch your legs and check your watch." I would've liked it if the scriptwriting in these scenes were more bolder, flashier, memorable, or anything. The scenes do their job in establishing story and character, but not exactly in the most exciting/brilliant way.

    Personally, I still liked a lot of TPM's elements even though I'm labled a 'basher', and I'd say 60%-80% or it is good old SW, depending on my mood. But I think what hurts TPM are its dramatic weaknesses that could've been easily alleviated. Just little things like more natural performances, more restraint (especially the excessive humor), and smarter, tighter scriptwriting here and there. And these are basic things that are expected of every film.

    Other people may be asking for entirely new scenes, new characters, new environments, but for me, I'll still would've been happy if GL addressed the things I mentioned, and they don't cost a dime more.
  11. CeeJay Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2000
    star 4
    Once again were begining to get the false representation that because a fan film generates tons of Box Office that instantly means it couldn't have been dissapointing to its fans! - WRONG! - I found TPM hugely dissapointing but still saw the film 7 (SEVEN) times; more than any film I ever seen before at the cinema including all the OT films! That was purely down to the spectacle, the film is a cinema experience and what it succeeds at primarily with all fans is the amazing visuals and sound. Something you just do not get from the average film. Narratively the film sucked and as a whole the film was a huge dissapointment but that will not detain the average cinemagoer going to see the film out of interest over all the hype and the average Fan to see it umpteen times because its the first SW film in over 15 years regardless of whether it's any good or not!

    The same applies to the DVD, it's sales were dissapointing considering its heritage and the success of other titles that made less at the box office than it did. But it still sold well enough as a title to hit the number one spot if only for a little while. Who's buying it? the same people who loved and HATED it even the fans that found it dissapointing, why? Because it's part one of a set that includes at least 2 of their favourite films of ALL TIME! Whether they find it dissapointing or not, it has to be bought and placed with the rest of the collection just like I did with ROTJ, another film I dispised even more than TPM.

    You can't put a price on Fandom and unless you've been on both sides of the fences as a fan, you can't understand what compells them to do the silly things they do even if they hate additions to their most loved "thing". The TV show "Enterprise" is proof of this, it is hated by a lot of fans for its major inconsistencies with its predecessors yet continues to be a huge success on TV. Therefore you cannot attribute whether FANs were dissapointed with a film simply by its B.Office, when it comes to fan films that figure is always going to be high regardless and especially with a SW film! How many films do you know have fans that que a month before the film is even released? - NONE! That's how crazy about it we are, and thry're queing up again a month in advance for AOTC aswell. Never befoe has the film world seen anything like it!

    Here's a little something about the new DVD The Phandom Menace which is independant from the press and so called media attack of three years ago and concentrated on us, the fans before during and after TPM:


    DVD Review: The Phandom Menace
    Thu, Apr 25, 02 09:20:35 PM EDT

    by Joshua Griffin

    "While there's no narrator for the feature, the 62 minute DVD focuses primarily on the people, the fans, and let's them be the voice of the film. With a few notable guests like Timothy Zahn and Hugh Quarshie, the film follows the emotion of starting a new fanclub and seeing its rise to the top of the sub-culture phenomenon. Meeting the casual fan to the most hardcore, the film works diligently to deliver content from all levels of fandom, not just the extreme.

    But the documentary shines most in its honesty and delivery focusing on the before and after effects of Episode I on the fans. The ascension to the top of organizing fans to the frustration for defending a movie that clearly didn't resonate with them. That and the talk of the importance of Episode II is timely and welcomed at this juncture, just before we finally see Episode II. "


    "Clearly didn't resonate with them", the media reported on a fact, not a myth, a lot of fans did not hate the movie as the argument keeps getting misrepresented but they did find it hugely dissapointing which is what this thread was all about. The media had nothing to do with it, a fifteen year wait for a SW film generates a lot of new fans and a lot of expectations. It would have taken a remarkable film to meet with all of them and come out smelling of roses, but the fact is that TPM was less than a remarkable film, not nearly as good as its predecessors narratively or
  12. Lukecash Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 4
    JohnWilliams00

    Lukecash, that's a good post, but I wouldn't call TPM a failure just because it didn't earn as much, say, ANH or Titanic.


    Neither did I. I wanted to show how some analyst thought TPM was a failure because it did not live UP to their expectations.

    TPM did very well at the box-office, but one can attribute that to the many hardcore fans..

    Now, I'm not saying anything bad about extreme hardcore fans, but I think they were the ones who tended to overlook any flaws and just enjoy the experience, whether the film was mediocre or incredible in their eyes, it didn't matter. I don't think any person went to see LOTR or Harry Potter 20 times....maybe a few, but not anything like TPM.


    I saw LOTR three times myself. The last showing in springfield Illinois, I found out that several people went 7 or 8 times. My friend who I went with had seen it 30 times.
    Make no mistake about it...LOTR fans are almost as fanatical as SW fans. My point is Tolkien has been around for 50=60 years. it has a bigger built in audience from the books alone.

    But box-office aside (which was successful), TPM was lauded as a dissapointment most likely because of the movie itself. The critics and media don't look at box-office in the end, but at what how the movie affected them as a whole


    A majority of critics, (according to Rottentomato.com) gave it a positive rating. But it was by no means overwhelming. I think most critics liked it, but didn't give it four out of four stars. No critic declared it Citezen Kane, an TPM fan should say that either. Some clearly didn't like it.

    Even Time Magazine thought it was a bit strange that George Lucas would have to defend TPM, based on the BO

    CeeJay
    We share something in Common- we both think that ROTJ was the weakest link in the Star Wars chain. Do you honestly despise it or do you just think it is weak?

    "Clearly didn't resonate with them", the media reported on a fact, not a myth, a lot of fans did not hate the movie as the argument keeps getting misrepresented but they did find it hugely dissapointing which is what this thread was all about.

    I kinda object to that. SOme people were slightly dissapointed, but still enjoyed the film. Others were like you. There were different layers of dissaointment. I think that is where the media made it's mistake...by assuming that the fans hatedit because they were dissapointed.

    The media had nothing to do with it, a fifteen year wait for a SW film generates a lot of new fans and a lot of expectations.


    This is would be incorrect. Other places on this board had notice a LACK of hype for AOTC movie compaired to TPM. The Media made TPM out to be the second coming...Lucas didn't. When it wasn't the "Greatest story ever told" (He kept telling all of his friends and co-workers that he thought it wasn't going to do well...he even lost a bet with Spielberg)
    THIS is why he was cutting back on the merchandising and the hype...there was a backlash when it didn't reach their expectations.

    It would have taken a remarkable film to meet with all of them and come out smelling of roses, but the fact is that TPM was less than a remarkable film, not nearly as good as its predecessors narratively or scriptwise but clearly superior to them on a sound and visual level.

    I am glad you see how the expectiations might have been way to high and affected your view of it. Your opinions is a fair assesment of what The Phantom Menance was for some Hardcore fans. For me personally, I found the script to be deeper than the previous and more complex. I thought the EDITING hurt the film, more than anything.

    This and a 15 year wait for the movie made it a compelling film to see in the cinema alone regardless of whether it was any good or not. No one would do that for the average film, only a SW flick!{/blockquote]

    This is true...but the thing
  13. dahveed72 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    star 3

    I hated the movie, and most of the people i know hated. The first time i saw the movie was at a 2am screening (those late-night screenings lasted about a week), the crowd was mostly people in their 20's and 30's since it was a weekday. When the end credits began there was stunned silence and finally comments like "jesus, 16 years of waiting for that?" and "i feel like Lucas just mugged me!" and "what the hell were those japanese dudes with bad rubber masks?" (this last one was mine).

    In short, I HATED this movie, many of my friends hated it, many people in that first audience hated it, and many many others HATED it too. Sure, some people have become more forgiving of the movie, grasping at anything positive because it is after all a SW movie. But the fact is many people hated it then and they still do. I am one of them.

    Im glad TPM made alot of money, and im equally glad the media reported on the deep dissatisfaction with this crappy movie. The former guarantees another movie, and the latter makes it more likely that ep 2 & 3 will be better (or at least different). '

    And, for my part, i will shout it to the rafters until we get a decent SW movie:

    THE PHANTOM MENACE SUCKED!!! BAD
  14. Sithchilde Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 14, 2002
    star 1
    Can everybody please re-read the title of this thread?

    Ok, it asks: Did the Media make it appear that ALL SW fans were dissappointed with [TPM]

    to which the answer is no.

    Fact.

    Why is this a fact? Because I have seen with my own two eyes, and heard with my own two ears, positive reports on TPM. I have read the positive reviews of fans, and heard people rave about how great it was on TV.

    So, it is impossible to state that "the media" has made it appear that ALL SW were disappointed with TPM, because "the media" has shown that some SW fans like it.

    I'm sorry, but this thread is one of many in which ridiculous generalisations fly around, giving offence to all and sundry. How anyone could think they could accurately assign a specific opinion to something as vast as "the media" is amazing in itself.

    And, on a related note, I don't think you can talk about the Tolkein fanbase and the SW fanbase as being equal when it comes to having a built in audience for the films. The Tolkein fanbase is based specifically on the BOOKS. The books are the primary resource; the books are what the Tolkein fans are fans of. SW is, primarily, a series of films.

    There is no guarantee that a books built in audience will translate into a films built in audience (if only!), whereas a fanbase which is built open the love of a trilogy of films will likely translate into a built in audience for a further trilogy of films in the same series.

  15. JediStrider Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2002
    star 3
    It's not so much the media doing reviews but the media doing pieces on fans themselves. Whenever you read articles on Aotc, the media has to refer at some point to TPM, and that is when they get a jab or two in there. Which simply isn't fair because a lot of people (including myself and a lot of my friends) loved it, while at the same time a few of my friends hated it. No one can say, Hey, everybody hates this movie, because it simply isn't true. If everyone hated the movie as much as some people want to believe, no one would be going to the new one. A lot of fans were disappointed but a lot were. Harry Knowles (I know you may not like him but he's got a point) said that TPM "polarized the fan base," and that you have the people who hated it throwing trash and garbage every which way and you had the people who loved it desperately trying to defend it in the face of not only fan critiscm, but media critiscm as well. When looking at the fan base, I guarantee you there's just as many people who liked it that didn't like it. But we can't know everybody, and it seems those who hated it speak more because it's simply become mainstream to bash the movie. That's why the media makes it appear that ALL sw fans were disappointed with it. And those who love it sometimes won't speak up for fear of a flame war erupting. It's not hard to guage that TPM haters are much more forceful and loud about their views than the people who loved it, and that's because the media backs them up every which way and it becomes increasinly more difficult to defend a movie a lot of people love.

  16. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
    star 4
    What news shows do you all watch and what papers do you read. Most of the things I saw were along the lines of "TPM doing great, despite some dissapointed fans." I dont remember any spesifics, so take it with the grain of salt it is worth.

    Why do people say that "it is cool to bash the flick?" I mean, do people not have their own opinions. I may bask TPM at times, but that is because i honestly think that parts of it are bad, not because i want to fit in, or cause i think it is cool.

    The only reason i think the mieda would hate TPM (not saying if they truly did or not) would be if they wanted people who agreed with them to watch their shows, and they thought that the bulk of the people disliked TPM. Although the bashers may be louder, I think there is enough evidence that they are not the majority.

    I do seem to remember some places bashing parts of TPM before it was out, but it was always JJ, or the acting, but not really the whole movie, just small parts.

    The press has lost its way, but it is better than not having it, but that could change... The press wants people to read/watch them, and saying things like "Main actor of TPM was 'slightly dissapointed'' wont sell as much as "OB1 Loths TPM." It does not make it right though, and it is misleading IMHO.

    Actually the reason why i think TPM did so well was that little brats guilted their parrents into seeing it too many times. The rereleace in December, half the people in the theater were kids.

    Ahh, i think people are giving the fan bases too much credit. Fan bases will make a movie do well quickly, but i dont think that they could carry a film over several months.

    Well, I tend to think that people are not compleatly stupid, and i think that one majoy way that the dissapointed people were dissapointed was that TPM didnt have much that the PT needs in terms of story. An example is the Clone wars (others are Luke and Liea being born, Ani being trained as a Jedi, Fall of the Repiblic, ect), but with AOT Clones, it is safe to assume that the clone wars are in it, and therefor, the meat of the story will start. I think that people will see that, and atleast the hardcore fans, and that will make people want to see it if they liked star wars.

    </rant>

  17. Sithchilde Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 14, 2002
    star 1
    And there it is again.

    "The Media", "ALL SW fans". Generalisations bandied around, when surely it would be more accurate to talk about "sections of the media" and "some/many/the majority of SW fans".

  18. DarthHomer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2000
    star 5
    JediStrider is right. It's not so much that the media implies everyone hated TPM, but the fact that they can't report on AOTC (or any other SW story, for that matter) without getting a jab in at TPM. I've read reviews of Lucasarts games that say things like "Unfortunately, this game is based on TPM rather than the classic trilogy" What happened to objectivity? Just tell us if the freaking game is any good or not! :)
    Even if you agree with the viewpoint that TPM was a major disappointment, you can only hear that point made so many times before it becomes meaningless.
    Nearly every preview of AOTC in the media seems to include a comment such as "well, the last one was a bit crap, but maybe this one will be good". It seems impossible for many of the film's detractors to comprehend that there are some fans who are looking forward to AOTC because of TPM, not in spite of it.
  19. KeithFranklin Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 1998
    star 2
    Come on the media is all based on nagativity these days. The simple fact is that TPM got more positive reviews then negative but the media reported the negative. Even using a negative comment in a otherwise positive review to say something bad about TPM.

    Negativity even happened before TPM came out. How may negative editorials existed well before TPM being released with regards to fans getting exited, lining up, attending Celebration I, etc. This has also started happening with AOTC. If I recall correctly ESPN reported on the line in Seattle with negativity a few weeks ago.

    Even the new article in Time still doesnt get it when they mention fans not liking the "Trade war" of all people the fans (even the bashers) new the movie wasnt about a trade war. It is just like a couple of the negative reviews I remember when TPM came criticizing the opening line by Obi-Wan "I have a bad feeling about this".

    Later
  20. Ultimate Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 2000
    star 3
    Great arguement Cee Jay. "Everybody kept on seeing it again and again, spending all their hard earned money on a movie they really disliked." Just because you like flushing your money down the toilet, don't assume everyone else does too. I like how you call the notion that people spend money on entertainment they actually want to see, ridiculous, but then have no problem presenting one of the most ludicrous theories ever. I know how you hate to listen to legitimate polls from respected news organizations, but Gallup (and Reuters) showed that TPM rated very high with audiences and had a high rewatchability rating, specifically because people liked it so much they would go see it again. I assume you'll just ignore this like you do everything else.

    As for your equally weak DVD arguement. After repeatedly paying to see a movie they disliked, these people then proceed to drop $20 bucks so they can own a movie they dislike and continue to watch a movie they dislike in the privacy of their own home. TPM isn't in some 4 pack with the other films, and you have to buy it to get the others. So there's no obligation to get the one you dislike. Of course when YOU look at sales YOU conveniently (just like media reprts) fail to look at the fact that TPM was only in wide release for a short time and was going against DVD's that had been out for the entire year. You also conveniently forget to mention that since it's been out TPM has not left the top sellers lists and is currently #14 at Amazon, and is one of the top selling DVD's ever. Disappointing indeed. Your excuses have to get more ridiculous and ridiculous to explain stuff like this. It's always excuses with you.


    ""Clearly didn't resonate with them", the media reported on a fact, not a myth, a lot of fans did not hate the movie as the argument keeps getting misrepresented but they did find it hugely dissapointing which is what this thread was all about. The media had nothing to do with it, a fifteen year wait for a SW film generates a lot of new fans and a lot of expectations. It would have taken a remarkable film to meet with all of them and come out smelling of roses, but the fact is that TPM was less than a remarkable film, not nearly as good as its predecessors narratively or scriptwise but clearly superior to them on a sound and visual level. This and a 15 year wait for the movie made it a compelling film to see in the cinema alone regardless of whether it was any good or not. No one would do that for the average film, only a SW flick! "

    As you have continually ignored, no one here is disputing the fact that people were disappointed with the film. We are complaining about the fact that all the media wants to show is that the ONLY fans of TPM were disappointed fans. That is a misrepresentation. We have given example after example, which you conveniently ignored.

    While the fact that all the hype that led into TPM would cause alot of people to go see the movie is dead on, you other conclusions are a joke. Let me get this straight, TPM basically got a supposedly negative audience reaction and supposedly bad word of mouth, and instead of this negatively impacting the film it positively impacted it's monetary intake. Meanwhile that theory goes against every case in film history. Negative reactions affect films NEGATIVELY. Gallup and then Reuters both did comprehensive week by week polling of viewers and found that TPM was not getting negative word of mouth or negative audience reaction, it was getting very very positive reactions and word of mouth.

    "Well debated, Aranos (You got an apology? - Much desereved, brother! ) and Dahveed but I feel your insight is wasted simply because if people want to believe in a conspiracy theory, they will do so untill their death no matter what evidence is thrown in their path."

    Sorry to burst your bubble again Cee Jay but we've given example after example of distortion after distortion to outright lie. You have given one shred of evidence, only your opinion, which doesn't seem to be based on a real tangible
  21. Lukecash Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 4
    What news shows do you all watch and what papers do you read. Most of the things I saw were along the lines of "TPM doing great, despite some dissapointed fans." I dont remember any spesifics, so take it with the grain of salt it is worth.


    I think it is important that we realize there are TWO medias involved. The mainstream and the Fandom media. And they both feed off eachother.

    It's a more recent phenominon for mainstreem media to "pick" on The Phantom Menance. I fell it is a pretty much a vicious cycle of how this got started. The media uses the "fan" magazine, internet sights, critic reviews and industry analysts to say weather a movie was popular or successful.

    It started on the internet, fan magazine and events. These fan media outlets are run by people who LOVE science-fiction and Star Wars. These people, I could see being dissapointed in TPM for reasons mentioned above. They write their opinions, vent their feelings and dissapointments. They find humor in the thing they hate. The problem is that the mainstream media, takes these people and say EVERYONE feels this way in fandom.

    (A friend witness a "fight" between a comic book artist and a guy wearing a Jar Jar mask at his panel. What this had to do with the Artist or Star Wars, I don't know because the guy had nothing to do with the Star Wars books.)

    The mainstream media-taking a quick glance at these sources, would think that all of fandom hated Jar-Jar and the movie. But that isn't the end of the story. They turn to the critics who wrote negative reviews to explain WHY the fan base turned on SW

    Then later in the year, industry analyst in merchandising and movies-started to declare that TPM was a failure. Now movie and merchandisng was the best selling stuff of the year, but that dosen't sell papers. What sells papers is the fact that their is inventory not sold. Didn't matter the over speculated and produced the product. Then the fanbase "reports" this as evidence of their opionion that TPM sucked.

    So two years after the movie, this cycle keeps building and building and building. As we seen with the Newsweek article-(originally a positive titled one with a generally positive angle) Other magazines and newspaper picks up the stories and propgates the negativity by not understanding or removing the context where the information comes from.

    The end result of inbreeding and canabalistic news reports-the mainstream media has declaired that TPM was "dissapointing" and that fans "Hated" it.

    I accept the fact that people were dissapoined in it- 16 years is a long wait. Can some people accept that dispite the dissapointment-some people ejoyed the film?


  22. CeeJay Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2000
    star 4
    LukeCash,I do despise ROTJ, it was so bad an experience that I threw away all my SW collection and stayed away from the saga for two years. Only the release of the WideScreen videos caught my interest again but up till now I still won't buy a lot of SW merchandise because of that film! I still saw it three times in the cinema, one showing was with all three films back to back. The visuals at the time were worth seeing on the big screen only - now, I would go even if it was free and showing on my bedroom ceiling!


    Ultimate, I could write a 10,000 word essay trying to make you understand why fans do what they do even if it doesn't make sense to you, but that's the thing - IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE TO YOU - YOU!!! TPM wasn't so dissapointing that the movie had absolutely no redeeming features, it had damn fine effects and a some breathtaking sequences that worked on the big screen! Unfortunately the 500 seat cinema sized viewing room in the back of my tiny one bedroom flat with the THX equipped sound was still under construction, so I had to go and watch it with the rest of the unfortunate souls at the theatre!

    Because you can't rationalise why someone would pay to see something they don't like doesn't mean it isn't done or that it is a figment of my imagination. It is - by FANS! Normal people think they're mad for blowing their wages watching a film 10 or 20 times but they can't possibly understand, they're not fans. I work in a merchandise shop, people buy things like the Star Trek Fact Files; a weekly collection of info about how things in the ST universe works and listings of events. Some curse the damn thing every time they buy it but they still come back the next week and do it all over again - WHY?

    ST Voyager video tapes were another, as is the new show Enterprise, the people who bought it in our shop never stopped telling us how bad it was but "You have to have it all don't ya, it's ST?" is what they keep saying to us/themselves - WHY? The friend I spoke of before is now building up such a excitement for Ep2 that even though he hates TPM and swore he'd never buy the DVD, he's now decided that he has to have it because the collection won't be complete without it. - WHY?

    BECAUSE THEY'RE FANS! Don't try to understand it unless you've done something as silly as that, realised it but did it anyway because you can't help yourself! Fortunately you like all the films otherwise you'd understand or you simply don't mind having an incomplete collection if you didn't. No normal person would do these silly things. How many normal people do you know who would camp outside to see a two hour film a month in advance? How many normal people do you know would set up a website devoted to killing a fictional charater because he ruined a movie they liked? How many normal people do you know would come to a fan site to debate a movie they don't like over a period of three years? Even SW's greatest rival ST in terms of Fanbase doesn't quite have the crazy events that happen around a film launch as it does with a SW movie. ST films come out with a whimper and pass like wind, yet their fans have bought almost as much merchandise as SW fans over a longer period.

    Can you honestly believe that I'm the only fan that went to see TPM 7 times simply for the visual experience? If you require proof then you aint going to get it from me, go find it yourself, mate. Everyone I worked with saw TPM at least twice and they all found it dissapointing but that wasn't going to stop them from paying to watch the spectacle. Why do you think I spoilt mayself the film, I've done it with every SW film I've ever seen - why? Because the visual spectacle, the sound and the music is what makes the film, the story simply has to be interesting enough to follow. Even if the story sucks, the visuals will carry the film through to the end as it did for ROTJ and TPM for me anyway.
  23. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    CeeJay--

    Judging by, among many other things, your review of the DVD, specifically the "Beginning" documentary, you have a distinct tendency to put your own twist/angle on things that are very straightforward (saying that Lucas "clearly feels sorry" for Jake Lloyd as he struggles with his lines during his audition), and to outright fabricate other things (the stuff about huge chunks of the movie needing to be cut out because of Jake's "bad performance").

    So forgive me if I find the conclusions you draw from your casual research a bit hard to swallow.
  24. Ultimate Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 2000
    star 3
    I don't disagree that people did that. It's just that it wasn't enough to make any real difference. The average movie goer or the average Star Wars fan isn't some type of diehard all-merchandise consuming being. Those type of fans make up a very small minority of any fanbase. Certainly not enough to make millions and millions of difference in box office, DVD and merchandise.

  25. CeeJay Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2000
    star 4
    I'm not saying that they are the only ones, TPM had a huge amount of puplic interest being the first SW film since ROTJ 16 years before it. Do you realise how many casual fans or interest SW awakes in various generations? We are talking about a 25 year span of generations that grew up with SW as part of their movie myth, that gaurantees quite a lot of ticket sales simply out of curiosity alone. I know people who are not even that interested in the film yet they saw it twice or three times because they simply went with different groups of people who hadn't seen the film yet. It became this "You have to see what all the fuss is about" film of the year. Entire office staff organised days off work to see the movie while those that didn't were hit with the so called "Phantom Flu" (workers calling in sick because they were waiting in line to see the film). No other film can do that, the last time a film had that amount of expectation behind its release was probably ROTJ.

    Like I said before, I believe that TPM was a dissapointing SW movie and AOTC will not be. The two will have such contrasting world wide Box office receipts this year in terms of popularity, AOTC will destroy every record set by TPM and then some simply because it will benefit from the same casual SW fan interest but be more popular due to the fact that it is a better film. Then you may get an idea what TPM could have done if it were not so dissapointing for a SW film.

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