TPM's Appeal: Did the Media Make it Appear that ALL SW Fans Were Dissapointed With It?

Cee Jay,

The visuals on TPM were stunning. If that appealed to you it was because Lucas admits to being a very visual director.

I have heard Lucas say that TPM was more like the Kubuki theater. Apparently, but I am not for sureKubiki theater does not pay attention to how the scene is acted verbally...but how it is presented visually.

Thus you probabbly tapped into that aspect.

And I am sorry about the effect of ROTJ. While I was NOT as dissapoined as you were in that movie, that was my benchmark for Star Wars Episode I If it was worse than than ROTJ, then I was giving up.

If we agree that TMP was better than the ROTJ, then you understand where I am coming from.

Still, I think the media plays off of persception MORE than actual facts. I will say that a snall majority of the fans were dissapoined-but not to the point of loathing. I will say that there is a very sizable faction of that dissapoined fandom, HATED the movie.

 

I have a friend who's first SW experience was also ROTJ so I can almost understand why you don't have a problem with it, I probably would have liked it too if it was my first SW film... maybe..! But i can write a list as long as my arm about why I hate that film, I guess it was the greatest dissapointment in my life up until that point and probably still up there when I think about it.

Just to clear up a little missunderstanding, I don't think that everyone who was dissapointed with the TPM actually hates it, i don't really hate it because I can still watch it, I have done so many times and plan to do so before going to see Ep2 at midnight on the 15th May (Yippppiieeeeee!) I just believe that many people were really dissapointed, enough to vent their frustrations and the I agree that those who "Hate" it are probably in a minority.

Oh yes, I do think TPM even with its faults runs circles around ROTJ, the things I like about that damn film can honestly be counted on one of Yoda's hands!

 

Gentlemen, I think the ROTJ/TPM debate can be taken to the thread: Which is Better?: ROTJ or TPM, thread. Let's get back on topic


ST

 

Dude, don't take our debate out of context, our refferences and opinions on ROTJ derive from our current debate on the similarities of dissapointment of TPM by SW fans in a not to tenuous attempt to draw a correlation of the two.

But if you want to debate ROTJ I guess you know where to go?

..Call me!

 

I aint calling you. My phone bill's high enough as it is


ST

 

As is the poll on my "Were you dissapointed with TPM" thread. It's practically 60/40 in the favour of those who were not dissapointed with TPM which is slightly higher than what I expected for a SW fan site. Not that I'm saying this poll is a proportional representation of the overall acccumlilation of SW fans around the world, but this clearly shows that a lot of people were dissapointed with the film.. here at least anyway!

 

Getting back to the media bias thing, I don't trust the media to report things objectively. I also don't trust spokespeople for corporations.
For example, Tri-Con reportedly said that the TPM promotion actually "drove people AWAY from their restaurants?" Maybe it's just me, but is that the biggest load of horse**** you've ever heard? I was in America back in May 99, and I almost had a heart attack trying to race round and collect as many of the fast food toys as I could. I don't think I ever set foot in a KFC before then! And I can't have been the only fan. As for the people who aren't fans, do you think they would have gone "I really feel like a taco right now. Oh no, Taco Bell has got that Star Wars crap in there. I'll go to McDonald's instead."? I don't think so!
I think it's more likely that Tri-Con and Pepsi were disappointed by the response, and just wanted out. I don't believe they lost as much money as they claimed.
Similarly, some business reports claimed that the publisher DK was almost driven into bankruptcy by poor sales of the Episode I Visual Dictionary, etc. So why are they still bringing out books for AOTC?
Don't believe anything you read.

 

D.Homer, it is ture that DK were driven to bankruptcy over the Episode 1 books, they since got bought out by Penguin books and are now a subsidiary of that company which is why the books are still being puplished.

The DK books are not selling too hot at the moment either but this time around they havent made too many of them as they did with Ep1. Just to give you an example, we had over 200 DK cross-section and visual dictionary books delivered for Ep1 including an elaborate cardboard Battledroid and Dridika. We ended up sending back over 150 of those books and kept the droids! This time around we have 20 of each of the books and no more!

 

I live in a little out of the way country, so I've had a very different exposure to media in regards to TPM that from the looks of things a lot of people in larger populated areas have had.

In my experience the media response, in it's reviews at least, to TPM was largely a sort of guarded optimism/disappointment. There wasn't any 'GEORGE LUCAS KILLED STAR WARS' type aricles flying around or nything like that. I found most reviewers to be fair;the tended to regard TPM as a great hit-and-miss; worth a look, but not really anything to rave about. They gave credit where it was due, and not when it wasn't. So, in my own little country I don't think the media really impacted our view of TPM, apart from reporting the sentiments many people have shown.

 

The entertainment mieda probably did have a bit of a bias against TPM (wheather or not is is right is another matter). Probably because there were more loud people who didnt like the film, and it is kind of funny seeing a fanatic dressed up adult walking out wondering what happened.

Then again, do any of you gushers still watch those news shows like you say the bashers keep watching TPM?

I agree that the mieda is messed up. Oviously, if everyone hated the film, then it would not do well, yet it did do well, so some powerful demographic group had to like it (kids and others).

Almost everything the mieda says, i ask myself, "Do i realy believe it, why or why not?" People who dont should not watch the news or any type of reporting in my opinion, for their own good.

"The visuals of TPM were stunning." Wow, if all a movie has is prety lights...

Why was ROTJ so bad? Please, i thought it was the worst of the OT, but it was sort of like the worst of three great movies. CeeJay, please, send me a few things from that list.

Yes, there is a diffrence between dissapointment and hating. Heck, many gushers i know of have one or two small things with TPM that they were dissapointed with. So did the mieda make it out that everyone hated it, or everyone was dissapointed, or just miffed?

 

"The Phantom Menace was the second biggest grossing film of all time (pre-Harry Potter). You don't get that by making a film people don't relate to. That's not people going to see it once. That's people liking it and going to see it again."

Smart guy, that Lucas

 

"I agree that the mieda is messed up. Oviously, if everyone hated the film, then it would not do well, yet it did do well, so some powerful demographic group had to like it (kids and others)."

The box office isn't really a good way of seeing how many people liked a movie. Remember that this is Star Wars, so it's likely to draw a huge crowd just because of curious people wanting to see what all the fuss is about. After the huge build up to the film, it's natural you'd check it out.

There's also the matter of repeat viewings, which doesn't sound like a big deal, but if everyone who saw TPM went to it just twice, that cuts its true numbers down by half. There's also the issue of parents taking their kids, not because they're interested, but just to keep an eye on them.

 

It's very easy to explain away the success of a movie you don't like as just being because of hype. I'm not interested in Harry Potter, but I don't think it made nearly a billion dollars worldwide just from "Potter drones" going to see it again and again.

 

I never said that the entire box office result could be explained away by 'drones' going to see the movie over and over, as you stated. What I did say, and what I meant, was that the box office is not an accurate depiction of the people who *enjoyed* TPM. I am not trying to discredit the relationship of the box office to the popularity of the movie, I am just saying that is not a very accurate way of judging the success of the movie. Rather, it gives a broad overview of the reaction of the public.

 

CeeJay, the fact that you, one of the more extreme bashers (I'm really a more moderate one), has read AOTC's script and given a positive opinion of it fills me with a lot of hope.

 

EnforcerSG, if you want to read my list of things that were terrible in ROTJ go here: http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=4424156&page=6

Darth Homer, I read that quote in the Daily Express mag but he failed to highlight that not only were both TPM and Harry Potter seriously hyped films with enormous expectations that led a lot of people to see the film at least once if only to find out what the fuss was all about but they were also Fan flicks which means they have the rare thing of being seen more that once by the same person because it is the film he/she's been waiting to see for ages!

You can't make a film of a book that sells to the level of sales Harry Potter, LOTR and SW and seriously not expect it to do exceptionally well at the B.O. How well they sell on Video and DVD is another thing, that shows whether those who atually enjoyed it enough to buy it.

Darth Torgo, not only do I have a positive opinion about AOTC's script, I absoloutely love it! It's more in the mold of my favourite SW film (TESB) it has well concieved set pieces and seeems well paced for a SW script for once and unlike TPM it has quite a few memorable classic lines in its Screenplay!

 

You make a good point, CeeJay. But then again, look at Godzilla. That was one of the most hyped films ever, and also had an existing fanbase from over 40 years of Japanese films. So why didn't that film have a record breaking box office run? Granted, it didn't have as big a cult fanbase as SW or HP, but it still shows that movie studios can't buy repeat business.
I actually agree with you that TPM didn't meet most people's high expectations. But it was still enjoyable enough for a lot of fans to pay to see it again and again. If I had hated TPM as much as some bashers claim they do, I probably would have seen it two times, tops. But because I genuinely enjoyed the film, I saw it about nine times at the cinema alone. I can't have been the only person who felt that way.
I just hope more people feel that way about AOTC.

 

Well, I saw it 5 times at a theatre and think it's a good, but not great film.

How do you measure a basher's level of hatred Homer?

I don't hate TPM at all. Doesn't mean I wasn't disappointed in part.

 

I know most bashers were just disappointed, but there are a few who totally loathed TPM, and I can't believe they went to see it several times just to make sure they hated it.
To use an example from another franchise, I loved Ghostbusters but was EXTREMELY disappointed by Ghostbusters II. I only saw it once in theaters, because I don't believe you have to be so loyal to a film series that you must rewatch the sequels even if you don't like them. Maybe some people think differently.

 

I saw TPM 19 times. If I'd actually liked the film, I might have seen it 20 times!

 

I didn't like it really but I still saw it about 5 times just cause mates of mine were going and I was with them at the time.

 

D.Homer, although Godzilla may have been around for ages its fanbase is reallatively small in comparison to the likes of SW and Star Trek etc. The movie also had very little in common with the traditional Godzilla so I't no wonder it didn't go down a treat, Godzilla is a Japenese inacarnation, the film by E & Devlin was a totally American affair even going so far as to taking the creature away from its Japenese origins to set the story in the US. Could you Imagine what kind of Box Office a SW film would make if it were set in Alaska and all the cast were Eskimos?

A missunderstanding about why bashers see films like ROTJ and TPM so many times is that we don't actually go to see these films to ascertain if we really hate them. We don't go into the cinema preparing to hate these films either. The first showing is enough to decide wheter we like the film or not but being a SW film puts it into another category all together - VISUAL SPECTACLE! We are fans after all so we WANT to like these films but even if the film is bad the sound and visual spectacle is always good so you are faced with the unique posistion of wanted to watch certain parts of the movie on the big screen while you still can. I hated ROTJ but I went to see it three times because two scenes had to be seen again, The speeder bike chase and the end battle. The same goes for TPM, i disliked it but I had to see the Jedis in action and the end battle; even the eventless Pod-race looked great on the big screen.

The hype generated by the film cast a lot of general interest in the movie with the average cinemagoer so you'll also find groups of people going to see the film and inviting their known "Star Wars Fan" amongst their firends to come with them. Thus a lot of bashers had to put up with coiing to see the film with various friends like I did and trying to defend it afterwards as WE are the ones they expect to have all the answers.

A SW film is so unlike the average film release in so many ways as you can see, so many occurances leads to the fan seeing the film many times adding to its certainty as a Box Office hit whether it's any good or not which is why a large B.Office alone cannot truly judge if all that were interested in seeing the film actually enjoyed it. When a film like The Sithe Sense makes the regions of a SW movie then that truly is because of good respone and word of mouth as it has no prior fan base or expectations from former related movies other than perhaps its director or co-stars.

 

CeeJay, how much do you think TPM would have made if it had been as bad as Godzilla? Or Batman & Robin? Would people still have watched it repeatedly then, just for the visual spectacle? I agree with you that some films are watchable just for that quality alone, but there usually has to be something else worthwhile in the film to encourage multiple viewings. To use another example from personal experience, Hook was a visually stunning film, but you couldn't have paid me to see that more than once. There must be a point when moviegoers realise they are being conned.

 

That poses the question then; what if people *realise* they're being conned but just don't care? I know someone who saw Godzilla 8 times. I asked him about it, and he shrugged and said something like 'I know it sucks, but hey it *looks* good'.

 

I have a comment:

It seems from some earlier comments that the people who absolutely detested TPM are 'the long-time fans.' Does this mean that to be a true fan, you must hate TPM? Arrogance.

I grew up w/ SW. I'm 16 right now, so I wasn't around when the OT came out. However, SW was a part of my childhood, and I love the OT.

I also really like TPM.

Answer me this: Am I a true fan?