TPM's Appeal: Did the Media Make it Appear that ALL SW Fans Were Dissapointed With It?

I can't remeber any SW film splitting more fans that TPM! Everyone who loved SW enough to call themselves a fan still liked TESB even though a minority disliked Yoda and the incionclusive ending. Many Fans disliked ROTJ because of the Ewoks, some even chucked in the saga after watching it (I'm one of those)

But I cannot remember as much negative backlash to a SW film as with TPM from the media and its own fans! This very debate amongst the thousands that have been fought on this; a FAN-Site is proof in itself! Could this possibly - just possibly be because the film was dissapointing to quite a large enough portion of its audience or are we just making this up?

I doubt there is this level of love and hate debates going on in the OT threads!

LukeCash, (hail another Brit!) I can't explain about the BBC poll because I know nothing about it, i remember Star Wars comming top in a film poll last year but TPM coming top in any Brit poll can only mean we Brits who care enough to vote liked the film. I dislike the flick a bit but of all the many people I know who really hate it, I know of none who took part in any poll! Besides, we are a really small country and not really a fair representation of world opinion such as the Internationally used and Industry respected IMDB and its poll as supplied by the Rabid Balding Ewok!

 

Back when the OT came out there was no internet, there was no massive media scrutiny of films, Star Wars hadn't been built into this giant "thing", there weren't 15 entertainment news shows and one entertainment news channel all desperately trying to fill time and create news, there was no summer blockbuster hype. The amount of scrutiny TPM was under is so far beyond anything the OT was it isn't even funny.

Even funnier is the fact that bashers are so quick to call site where people could just go and vote 1 for films they have a vendetta against and vote 10 for films they want to look good, and until recently could do it multiple times unchecked, and where fan sites send block of voters over to prop up their films and slag down competitiors are viewed as "a fair representation" and even more laughably "industry respected". But when massively important, worldwide respected news organizations like the BBC do surveys, and the most respected polling organization in the world, Gallup, does a survey they avoid them like the black plague and try to make excuses. Not to mention polls done on the fan site upon which they frequently post.

 

CeeJay, I'm not a Croydonite, but I do visit there every few weeks, mainly just to check out the latest merchandise. To be honest, I hardly every buy anything in FP (sorry) although I did buy the large Watto and "See-Thru"PO figures there a while back, and one of those Kinder eggs - which didn't have a LOTR toy in it, you fiend!
Anyway, I have to say I've gained a new respect for you lately. The fact that you can still make the effort to post here, when surrounded by such cynicism, and even have some optimism about AOTC, speaks volumes. Good on ya, mate.

 

Here's my experience with Star Wars and TPM in general:

(By the way, I'm a college student now)

As a kid, I had never really seen Star Wars. I was 14 when the Special Editions hit the theatre, and since I had always been a big sci-fi/fantasy fan (If you're wondering how I can say that I'm a sci-fi/fantasy fan and not have seen SW, I read books, mostly--we didn't watch that many movies or videos in my family) I got quite excited about it. So my dad took me and my brother and we experienced Star Wars for the first time. I fell in love with the movies. I even grabbed the hot property e-mail address jabba_da_hutt@hotmail.com (Hey, you take what someone else hasn't already taken ;-).

So, a couple of years go by, and TPM is set to come out. I become giddy with anticipation and cannot wait. Since I lived in a small western Oklahoma town, (which had probably never pre-sold movies tickets before ever) tickets didn't go on sale until 10:30 that wonderful Wednesday morning. I went up there at about 8:30 and stood in line with twenty or thirty of the other fair townspeople and got my tickets. I went that night to a packed house and was blown away. I loved that movie. I went back three times after that, and every time, the people I saw it with thought it was a really great movie. My mom liked, my girlfriend liked it, my friends liked.

So, a few more years goes by, the media says TPM is the worst movie ever, etc., and I don't think about it. Last month, my birthday rolls around, and my mom is curious as to what I want. I name of some books and stuff, and throw in, "Oh, yeah, Star Wars Episode I on DVD."

I read Harry Knowles review of Episode II. I hadn't thought about TPM much in a while, and he makes some negative points about TPM and Jar Jar, and I concede them. I say to myself, "Self, it was a pretty good movie, but it wasn't as good as you thought it was. Jar Jar was a little annoying, it wasn't quite as entertaining as the OT. It was OK, but it wasn't that great."

I do in fact get the DVD for my birthday. In this negative frame of mind left over from reading that review, I pop in TPM and watch it. And you know what? I was blown away again. I loved it. It was great!

I realized that it was only the media and the seeming majority that had caused me to think poorly of TPM. Everyone was saying "IT WAS BAD" so I thought, "Well, maybe it was bad." I thought this enough until I believed it.

But the proof is in the pudding. I still thouroughly enjoy The Phantom Menace, and find it to be an excellent film, and an excellent Star Wars film. (If you don't, that's OK.)

Sorry if that was long and pointless, I just wanted to let everyone know where I was coming from. In great detail.

 

--Actually the point in this thread is whether the media was incorrect by making it appear that SW Fans were disappointed with it.--
No, the point in this thread is whether the media made it appear that *all* SW fans were disappointed with it.
LOL! You'd argue with a wall. Do you truly think that ST-TPM-ASF-TNE meant *ALL*? Or was that merely a biased way to ask the question? Because if you want to be literal about it, here's the answer:


NO.

But then, we all knew that.

I honestly don't see how you can parlay your personal experience into a representation of SW fandom. SW fandom is far vaster than 17 people.
As absurd as my example may seem to you, it's not an unreasonable thing to assume I'm not in some weird pocket of the Star Wars fan world. Those 17 people are an honest count-up I did off the top of my head of real people that I really know well. They're all pretty normal people with a wide range of interests and lives. That is how I draw that conclusion... it's amazing to me how many others had a similar experience to mine right here in these forums (and I mean gushers and bashers). It's a theory of mine, an educated guess, and I never stated it as otherwise. It sure makes sense if it were to be true, though.

 

Ultimate, you're right about the IMDB poll.

Their film listings are full of innaccuracies, some credits are outright fraudulent, and their voting procedures are laughable.

You want proof about that? Just ask anyone at TORN about block voting.

Still, I love the site and visit there often!

 

I don't think the media makes it out to be like ALL Star Wars fans were disappointed with TPM. It's just that practically every news report on TPM has to do with SW fans that were disappointed with it because nowadays, negative news is good news.

But there are more people who liked TPM that disliked it. TPM wouldn't have made as much money at the box office had it been for people seeing it over and over again. And it was a great amount of people seeing it over and over, because not even a small amount of loyal SW fans could make TPM reach the mark it reached. It takes a great amount of people (in the high thousands probably at least) that see it again and again in order for the movie to generate that kind of money.

And what about the DVD sales of TPM? They were record-breaking. People just don't buy movies they don't like. And don't tell me that there were people who never saw it that bought it and act like it's an excuse why TPM sold big time because everyone and their mother saw this movie (it's a figure of speech - I know that there were some people who didn't see it). Only a very small amount of people who didn't see TPM bought the DVD most likely.

So anyway, to sum it all up in a nutshell, TPM was well received by the fans, as well as the general public. But because the media likes to hatch onto negative news, people get the impression that TPM was despised by everyone. And that's simply not true.

 

I dread Star Wars topics on magazine type TV shows because there's almost guaranteed to be someone saying "Star Wars? Who cares about that crap anymore?" One entertainment show I saw recently had the host saying that AOTC would likely be much better than TPM and have strong word of mouth, and one of the guests snidely replied with something like "I don't care if everyone loves it, it'll still be crap".
It takes a very brave person these days to admit they liked TPM in public

 

"TPM's Appeal: Did the Media Make it Appear that ALL SW Fans Were Dissapointed With It?"

To answer the topic's question: yes, and they continue to do so.

And I'm positive that after AOTC is released and people begin to to say (ridiculous) things like, "Star Wars Is Back" (it never left). . that magazines and entertainment shows will jump on the bandwagon and play along.

Whatever sells, right?

-Otis

 

Ultimate, guess what? Back when the OT came out, believe it or not there were still Film shows, the News, Newspapers, Magazines and Fanclubs. Even more shocking, people actually conversed about film just as we're doing now except that they actually did it face to face! - And I still don't remember anything like the division in SW fans and media backlash with a SW film as with TPM!

To no one in particular - If you like TPM, a lot of you do maybe even friends of yours aswell so to you a mjority of people & fans loved it! - I like it but not a lot, it is a dissapointment to me as it was to a lot of people and FANS that I know, including the majority of the people i've spoken to or heard voice their opinions about it, so to me a majority of people found it dissapointing!! The media stand aside from people like us and ascertain that the film is getting more negative vibe than positive so they report what they see, that the film is largely a dissapointment to a lot of people who went to see it. That's what they do, report the facts whether it matches your opinion or not and whether you agree with it or not! The thing is - It doesn't matter what they report because based on the individual fan like yourself and others the report will always be false if it doesn't match up to their own experiences! Anything other than that it seems is a falsehood!

You can't just not believe in one poll simply because it disagrees with your own personal likes over another that agrees with your preference. If one poll is conducted over a vastly more scale and far more wider and diverse audience then how can you honestly denounce it simply because you do not like the results? The only way to find out what the fans largely thought of TPM is to ask every single one and to do that on a SW fansite would reap fairly inaccurate results as many who were fans have sinced passed on to other things both after the dissapointments of ROTJ and TPM. YES, the dissapointments! Only those with a hint of hope for the remaining films and those who actually like it would be found on a site like this constantly debating the good and bad of these films!

If dissapointed fans were that much a minority, do you honestly think we would even be having this debate on this subject? Do you honestly think the term "Basher" would have any weight on these B-Boards? The representation of such a dissapointed fan would be so small that the Bashers sanctuary would never had needed to be deleted at the last Clean-up of huge threads just to claim back some Storage space and the fans like you wouldn't give them the time of day as they would be in such a minority it would hardly be worth your time!

But is isn't is it? The truth is that a lot of fans are here not to praise TPM but to voice there dissapointment along with others who shared their view, more come out of the woodwork all the time so no matter how much you do not want to realise it, the fact is a lot of fan were dissapointed with TPM and the media were correct to report it as thus! We are still fans, we just did not like TPM as much as some of you guys on this site which is why the silly Basher and Gusher thing has been going on for three years! I pray that this will all end when AOTC (which I think is going to be an absolute Diamond of a SW film!) unites everyone again in common praise.

Peace to all until Midnight 15th May Odeon Liecster Square where the first uniting of Basher and Gusher will commence here in the UK and I will be there to witness it, hope some of you guys are there too!

That includes you Darth Homer, you have no idea how much slagging off TPM gets in FP and guess who actually sticks up for it there? - Yes ME! I'm a SW fan born and bred and i'll have hope for this saga while there is still one more film to hit the silver screen, nothing, not a buck-toothed teddy bear kicking a Stormtroopers a$$ or a jive-talkin frogman causing a calamity on the fields of Naboo, can ever stop my faith that in the end I can sit through six films and not have my overall enjoyment spoilt by tw

 

I'll be at the midnight screening at the Odeon, CJ, don't you worry. Then back here to mock all the American forum members who haven't seen it yet

 

Hmmmm ..think they'll ban us for that?

Hey look! - We both have signatures based on SW renditions of GLADIATOR! K'ewl!

 

--As absurd as my example may seem to you,--
Malthus, this may come as a shock to you, but I believe what you said. I never accused you of lying or said your example was absurd. All I'm saying is that 17 people you happen to know is hardly representative or a cross section of the moviegoing public.

--it's not an unreasonable thing to assume I'm not in some weird pocket of the Star Wars fan world. Those 17 people are an honest count-up I did off the top of my head of real people that I really know well.--
Fine, I believe you.

--They're all pretty normal people with a wide range of interests and lives. That is how I draw that conclusion...--
Fine, you drew that conclusion. I just fail to see how you can say that 17 people you know are an accurate representation of the moviegoing public...unless you want to.

--it's amazing to me how many others had a similar experience to mine right here in these forums (and I mean gushers and bashers). It's a theory of mine, an educated guess, and I never stated it as otherwise. It sure makes sense if it were to be true, though.--
It's amazing to me how many people I've encountered, offline and on, who actually liked TPM.

 

I wasn't talking about liking and disliking. I'm talking about culture... as if to further indicate I DO think the people I know are representative of the SW fanbase at large as it was prior to TPM.

I draw this conclusion, because I don't believe, aside from a forced poll taken at the exit doors of all the theaters in the world back on May 19, 1999, that you can really get a representative conclusion through online polls. As I've said before, you aren't going to be able to count the votes of the fans who left that theater and haven't touched or bothered with Star Wars since, so those votes go uncounted. All I'm left to go on is what I see of the world around me, and this is what I based my stated belief upon.

 

Of course there were all those types of media that you listed. But none of them focused in on the entertainment field as much as they do now. How many Hollywood news magazine shows are there now? There's a whole cable channel devoted to entertainment news. Whole entertainment news related magazines. The summer is now event movie going. Movies have become inflated to a ridiculous point. Box office reports are a part of legitimate news. Plus the 400 pound gorilla known as the internet. There are so many more outlets and scrutiny, and people who are able to voice their opinions instantly now that it becomes almost impossible to miss entertainment news stories or hear how about what 1000 other people thought about said story. The environment is so vastly different now that it isn't even comparable.

All your experiences with you friends mean is that those are YOUR experiences with YOUR friends. Hey, I know some people who disliked it, some who outright hated it. I also know a ton of people who love it. Does that mean anything? Not really. Just that alot of the people I associate with liked the movie.

And you think the media doesn't have an agenda? More specific, the entertainment media, who were almost the only ones talking about TPM in these terms (and who rely on gossip, hearsay, rumors and sensationalism to fill most of their time) doesn't have an agenda? What sells more papers and gets more ratings after months and months of hype: "TPM does as expected, people enjoy it" or "Greatest disappointment of all time!! What a letdown!!!"? It happens every year, the media spends a good deal of time hyping a certain project (in every industry: TV, film or music) and then spends every moment after tearing it apart.

If the media was trying to give a balanced, factual view, how come they almost never showed the other side of the story? Because they picked their headline and are sticking with it.

Just look at it, the TPM DVD breaks records the week it is released, what do the papers write "People who hate the movie are the ones buying all the DVD's" The TPM DVD gets into the top 10, despite only being an older film that hadn't been in stores all that long. It still sells more than alot of films that had been on sale longer, but gets beat out by films that had been available for much longer. What's the headline? "TPM sales disappointing." Never mind that it is still on top seller lists while any of the others aren't even close, never mind that no DVD's that have been available as long as TPM are anywhere near it. Where are the stories reporting that? We going to see a sales chart comparing it to other DVD's anytime soon? TPM wins the ratings for the night on a typically low viewership day (Sunday) and despite the fact it's on the 4th rated network, it also gets an unusually high number for a movie of it's length. Any mention of that? Not a peep. How about toy sales. There was a recent article which talked about Lion King toy sales in wonderful glowing, phenominal terms, yet kept referring to TPM sales as dissapointing. THe problem was that they sold nearly the same amount of toys and TPM vastly outclassed it in other areas. Just telling both sides in a fair and balanced way right CeeJay?

That's "just reporting things as they see." No, it's reporting things the way they want us to see them. For GOd's sake the media was slamming Jar Jar Binks before the film even came out.

"You can't just not believe in one poll simply because it disagrees with your own personal likes over another that agrees with your preference."

Funny that's what alot of you and your cohorts seem to be doing. I merely pointed out the flaws in using IMDB as a source.

"If one poll is conducted over a vastly more scale and far more wider and diverse audience then how can you honestly denounce it simply because you do not like the results?"

No, but when the poll/vote is conducted in a highly fishy manner on a site that is well known for voter blocking and ballot stuffing I tend to like to point that out.

Let me mention another common IMDB pra

 

I thought I ended this debate in peace but it appears "just as I thought I was out.. they pull me pack in!"

Ultimate, just because there are ten times more media sources devoted to reporting about cinema today than there was 15/25 years ago does not mean that they didn't do their job any less proficiently and to think so would be a really ignorant view to take. On that rationale you'd might as well erase the entire media history and the world history while your at it as back in 1066 nobody had TV cameras and mobile phones to report on the Battle of Hastings and make it fact that the king had just died from an arrow in the eye! Maybe the battle was in Cornwall and maybe he tripped and bashed his head on a rock!

Mate, quite simply the media back then reported what they did about SW when it first came out because it was truly a hit, a film that cost a mere 9 million stunning audiences and wowing them back for repeat viewings and thoroughly enjoying the experience. Naturally expectations for the next film before its release were high and the film did not dissapoint, some fans had a gripe about the inclusion of a muppet as Yoda and the inconclusive end threw off many in the audience who were not expecting a climax of such fashion but TESB was a big hit aswell. Some even rated it better than its predecesor but the important thing was that the fans mostly loved it and SW fandom was at an all time high so again naturally expectations were high for the next film. When ROTJ came out it recieved a ton of backlash, not just from the reviewers but also from a lot of fans simply because it appeared as if GL rushed the story to an easy conclusion and the annoying inclusion of the Ewoks. They seemed like nothing but a merchandise driven ideal and fans argued this for ages! The film still made tons of cash and was a huge financial hit but the dissapointment from its fans was clear and undeniable and so it was justifiably reported on!

Now in 1999 comes TPM, again expectations are humongus simply because SW fans have been starved off their favourite food for over 15 years and how was the meal after so long? Well like any food to a starving man it tastes great at first because you're starving, a plain slice of bread tastes like a pizza, all crackers tastes like a Ritz and water is 1786 French Chianti. But then the grumbles came thick and fast, weak story, barely a villian, hated the kid, sterile performances, great music, loved the FX but lets start a website to kill Jar Jar! Can you honestly report this as anything but a dssapointment if you are working in the media? Do you need an agenda to see what was so clearly visable? Whole websites devoted to wishing a character dead in a film? This was unprecidented and by the films fans no less because trust me, the average audience member does not give a hoot about a frogman doing a buster keaton routine in his flick, not enough to start an internet petition! Not enough to start another to force GL to hand over the reigns to Peter Jackson to direct the third installment. Not enough to heckle Ahmed Best at every function he attended that year and even at Ep2 filming grounds!

Clearly FANS are dissapointed and you would have me believe that the media are just making it seem so and should report on the nice fluffy SW fan who floats over all this on pixie dust - No, they have a job to do so they do it. They report the film is a huge success, topping the B.O all around the world but not as successfull as expected, not nearly enough for a SW film in this day an age after all the expectations and what could possibly be the reason for that? Lack of advertising, expensive cinema tickets, lack of intrest in SFX laced sci-fi & Fantasy films.. no? Then it must be because the film was dissapointing, even for some of its fans!

The film was a huge sucess at the B.O, but did not topple Titanic as many had it sure to do including a lot of its fans, domesticly it was still a huge success reaching third behind the original SW in the all time chart but it made a lot les internationaly whi

 

Bashing and disliking the movie aren't the same thing.

 

They're not ?

 

I think some bashers do dislike the film but I'm not one of them.
I bash parts of the film but as a whole like it.

 

I don't outright dislike the film, but it is the weakest in the series (for me) and watching it can be a real exercise in frustration simply beacause there is so much unrealized potential.

 

"...watching it can be a real exercise in frustration simply beacause there is so much unrealized potential."

This pretty much sums up my experience with the film too AC.

For me, TPM is better than most action-adventure films. But, as a Star Wars film it is frustrating at times.
I do hold Star Wars to a higher level than other action flicks and for good reason. The first three films(well, half of ROTJ)raised the bar for action-adventure films, IMHO.

So it's a good film, but it's not a great STAR WARS film, IMHO.

 

They're not[?]
Nope. Bashing and disliking the film aren't necessarily the same at all. An all-too-common misconception I see with gushers here, and an all-too-common overstatement by bashers (myself included in the past, and I'm trying to be mindful of the difference constantly). I would prefer to allow myself to be critical of even my favorite movies than to try to fit myself into a total love/hate category set.

For me, TPM is better than most action-adventure films. But, as a Star Wars film it is frustrating at times.
I do hold Star Wars to a higher level than other action flicks and for good reason. The first three films(well, half of ROTJ)raised the bar for action-adventure films, IMHO.

So it's a good film, but it's not a great STAR WARS film, IMHO.
For the most part, I agree.

 

Personally, i feel that "The Phantom Menace" is a wonderful movie.


YES, the media made it appear that all SW Fans were dissapointed with it.

The movie has a brilliant story .

Some people might not have been able to understand it (especially the critics & media), so they criticise it. Its also possible that they are jealous of the enormous success of all the four star wars movies.

TPM is a perfect platform for the next two episodes.


adios.

 

My goodness! Look what we have here!

YES, the media made it appear that all SW Fans were dissapointed with it.
No they didn't. I never heard/saw them say that. That may be the pessimistic conclusion of their words that some of you may have drawn from their stories/coverage, but the various media venues didn't all link their arms together and tell us that all SW fans reacted the same way.

The movie has a brilliant story.
Given just a general statement like this, I can generally agree.

Some people might not have been able to understand it (especially the critics & media), so they criticise it. Its also possible that they are jealous of the enormous success of all the four star wars movies.
<stares blankly at Jedi Lord Kunal>
<1 minute passes>
<blink>
Uh... yeah. You nailed that one. You got those media types pegged! They're such idiots!

... and all sarcasm aside... seriously, man, I abhor so many things about the media it's not even funny, but letting on that the critics and their ilk are lacking understanding of movies is a bit off. Especially when the collective argument that they make seems to be that TPM should have been more than it is, and that it was "dummied-down."

 

I have to disagree, Matlthus. Critics ARE stupid.
Exhibit A: Austin Powers: The Spy Who Shagged Me got more positive reviews than TPM.
Exhibit B: Face/Off, which has one of the most ridiculous plots I've ever seen, was praised as the "thinking person's action movie" by critics.
Exhibit C: 2001 and Blade Runner were both panned by critics on their initial release (Paline Kael called 2001 a "monumentally unimaginative movie").

Need I go on?