Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by ST-TPM-ASF-TNE, Apr 13, 2002.
sorry, multi post
Okay now you have upset me...after my carefully words, in the vain hope of not upsetting you, you again put somebody?s backup without need or cause.
No? Let me refresh you ever so dim memory?..
-Wisdom of Shelley-
There you go again, proclaiming your opinion as fact, implying that those who liked TPM are "misguided." This is contradicting your earlier statement where you say you respect others' viewpoints. You can dress up your post in as many reasonable-sounding words and tones as you want, but at bottom, you clearly do not respect Lucas or the people who liked TPM.
- Wisdom of Shelley-
- Wisdom of Shelley-
--and so they should because this is the real world and in the real world a bad movie is a bad movie, bad acting is a bad acting no matter how many special effects you put in it.--
Now you are proclaiming your opinion as fact. It is not fact. It is your opinion. And your opinion and those who shared it where the ONLY people who the media paid any attention to.
- Wisdom of Shelley-
Now look you cannot simply stumble through these threads making snide comments and cheap shots via cut and paste, ignoring what I have said in the context in which I have written it you fool. Each council member has the right to there opinion of which I have taken great pains to respect and avoid insulting, unlike your statements.
The very fact the media focused on a view point contradicting your strongly held views which has Jesus bowing at the feet of George Lucas is not my fault. My opinion is not fact; neither did I say it was! If you like or dislike TPM fine.
I however am clearly in the latter group in regard to TPM as an individual movie which does not mean I am any less the fan you are it just means I can constructively criticize without drawing a conclusion, which is outlandish at best, that the competitive world of media has an organized hate campaign in regard to TPM across the planet..
Lukecash made a valid point illustrating the vested interests in the film staked by media companies which needed to do well to bring in a return. How does that gel with your conspiracy theory Shelley?
I pointed out that GL?s own decisions has not endeared him to the rest of the film community SW fan or not and that in my opinion SW was a financial success more so in spite of him rather than because of him and this has attracted critics gunfire in the past.
I agree with the view that SW has not gained the much vaunted appreciation of Hollywood?s set due to it is a single mans dream GL has no seeming need for them and they hate that but in my opinion that does not amount to a global hate campaign.
- Wisdom of Shelley-
Now can you please post proof of how adult male fans are deeply dissatisfied?
- Wisdom of Shelley-
I thought we had been through this already, what ever sources the information is taken from neither gusher nor basher will be happy unless a DNA sample is provided so please for yourself understand that some people didn?t like the film, some critics hated it but despite that it still made money i.e. http://www.boxofficeguru.com/blockbusters.htm
So get over it.
- Wisdom of Shelley-
TPM's successes are downplayed and only the negative is reported, and emphasized.
I don't doubt that many had creative problems with it. I have some myself. But the media did NOT provide balanced reporting. It seldom does these days. It had a serious vendetta against TPM, and continues to have one. It intentionally misquotes Lucas, Liam Neeson, Ewan McGregor, and ignores all positive stuff said about TPM. Any positive stuff said about AOTC is always accompanied with some swipe at TPM, and usually at Lucas as well.
- Wisdom of Shelley-
Please, the stars of the movie are required by contract to talk up the movie. The TV shows show the interviews then the fan reaction or something along those lines, that is modern reporting, shown all points of view the movie star then the movie fan / critic. You?re just pissed that they don?t all agree with you. It is the Media?s duty to report regarding the issues in
Like peeing in the wind, Aranos.
But it was a valiant attempt.
And for your own peace of mind keep these points in mind:
1) alot of these gushers are just kids.
2) most or all of them identify very closely with their love for TPM, and any criticism of that stinkburger can make them extremely defensive. Particularly those who are old enuf to know better.
--2) most or all of them identify very closely with their love for TPM, and any criticism of that stinkburger can make them extremely defensive. Particularly those who are old enuf to know better.--
Thanks for the dimestore analysis. It's funny how people who fancy themselves so intelligent and witty and above "stinkburgers" like TPM still hang around on boards devoted to them instead of moving on to fare that is worthier of them.
Thanks for reposting, then proving my point.
Such a timesaver, thanks!
Let's get back to the original question.. "TPM's Appeal: Did the Media Make it Appear that ALL SW Fans Were Dissapointed With It?"
The answer is simply, NO. But then depending on what coverage you caught and what you extrapolate from those reports it may seem to an individual that the world is out to get TPM. It's not, the media did their job and no matter how much many of you want to believe the media were out to shoot down TPM, it simply isn't true. Any film that gets release be it highly anticipated as TPM or as low key as Monsters Ball has to be subject to review by various representitives of the media. That means one of three things..
1: A majority or all of them will like the film and write a review singing its praises.
2: They will be split in their preference towards the film leading to a set of contrasting reviews.
3: A Majority or all of them will hate the film and write a review tearing it apart.
A majority of TPM reviews tore the film apart, that doesn't mean that the media were out to get the film, just that they found it dissapointing. The fact that many fans, the very same that were standing in line for months and dying to see the film, came out of the cinema voicing their dissapointment both visually as well as vocally meant that there was more to report other than TPM's box office breaking B.O records. That's their job, reporting the facts, Fans were dissapointed, they were all over CNN Showbiz news that day with multi-cinema coverage and the response was the same everywhere. A lot of fans leaving the cinema looking "spent" and trying to single out the films good point while voicing their obvious dissapointments. The most popular of which were:
1: Jar Jar Binks.
2: The under-use of Darth Maul.
3: The use of certain accents for some charaters.
4: Jake Lloyds acting ability.
These were heard again and again so unless you were living on the moon you couldn't fail to hear about how dissapointed a lot of people were aswell as fans.
You're welcome, although I don't see how I did.
read the post out loud to yourself til you do. It aint that complicated.
--The answer is simply, NO.--
No it isn't.
--But then depending on what coverage you caught and what you extrapolate from those reports it may seem to an individual that the world is out to get TPM.--
Just like depending on what coverage you caught and what you extrapolate from those reports, it may seem that everyone hated the movie and the media was only unbiased-ly reporting facts.
--It's not, the media did their job--
CeeJay...the media's JOB is to report the facts in an unbiased manner. YOU just happened to agree with what they reported. They reported only ONE side of the story, and continue to do so.
--and no matter how much many of you want to believe the media were out to shoot down TPM, it simply isn't true.--
Oh really? Or is that just what you believe because you agree with the media's treatment of the movie?
--Any film that gets release be it highly anticipated as TPM or as low key as Monsters Ball has to be subject to review by various representitives of the media. That means one of three things..
1: A majority or all of them will like the film and write a review singing its praises.
2: They will be split in their preference towards the film leading to a set of contrasting reviews.--
Which happened to TPM.
--3: A Majority or all of them will hate the film and write a review tearing it apart.
A majority of TPM reviews tore the film apart,--
No they didn't. The critical reaction was mixed but the "majority" didn't tear the film apart.
--that doesn't mean that the media were out to get the film, just that they found it dissapointing.--
The media pretended that a majority of critics tore it apart.
--The fact that many fans, the very same that were standing in line for months and dying to see the film, came out of the cinema voicing their dissapointment both visually as well as vocally meant that there was more to report other than TPM's box office breaking B.O records.--
And the media reported ONLY the disappointed reactions.
--That's their job, reporting the facts,--
ALL the facts. Not just the negative facts.
--Fans were dissapointed, they were all over CNN Showbiz news that day with multi-cinema coverage and the response was the same everywhere.--
Er, okay. But CNN is part of the media and ONLY showed the negative reaction. And it is only ONE part of the media. As Ultimate pointed out earlier in this thread, you have ignored other facts which don't support your viewpoint.
--A lot of fans leaving the cinema looking "spent" and trying to single out the films good point while voicing their obvious dissapointments. The most popular of which were:
1: Jar Jar Binks.--
Who himself was a target of constant media derision before the damn movie even came out.
--2: The under-use of Darth Maul.--
--3: The use of certain accents for some charaters.--
Which themselves were targets of constant media derision before the damn movie even came out. The negativity fed upon itself. People were primed to dislike those aspects before it even came out, as they were harped on constantly. I never, EVER saw Jar Jar or the Nemoidians as racial stereotypes, and then when I saw the press whining about it, I looked at them and thought, "Well, yeah, I guess you could say that if you really wanted to."
--4: Jake Lloyds acting ability.--
Could you point me to where I could see all this? And what was the angle of the story...was it along the lines of, "People are disappointed in TPM" and therefore showed only the disappointed people?
--These were heard again and again--
Because the media chose to report them again and again.
--so unless you were living on the moon you couldn't fail to hear about how dissapointed a lot of people were aswell as fans.--
For the billionth time, CeeJay, I and from what I can see most other gushers KNOW that many people were disappointed. What I object to is that ONLY the disappointed people were given airtime. ONLY the disappointed people's opinions were heard. You keep claiming the media did its job. Would you think that if ON
*sigh* Okay, dahveed. I see that no matter what I say, it's just going to confirm your opinion, at least in your own mind, and you don't deserve the satisfaction.
I'll repost what Ultimate said several pages ago in this thread, in reply to one of CeeJay's earlier posts:
Of course there were all those types of media that you listed. But none of them focused in on the entertainment field as much as they do now. How many Hollywood news magazine shows are there now? There's a whole cable channel devoted to entertainment news. Whole entertainment news related magazines. The summer is now event movie going. Movies have become inflated to a ridiculous point. Box office reports are a part of legitimate news. Plus the 400 pound gorilla known as the internet. There are so many more outlets and scrutiny, and people who are able to voice their opinions instantly now that it becomes almost impossible to miss entertainment news stories or hear how about what 1000 other people thought about said story. The environment is so vastly different now that it isn't even comparable.
All your experiences with you friends mean is that those are YOUR experiences with YOUR friends. Hey, I know some people who disliked it, some who outright hated it. I also know a ton of people who love it. Does that mean anything? Not really. Just that alot of the people I associate with liked the movie.
And you think the media doesn't have an agenda? More specific, the entertainment media, who were almost the only ones talking about TPM in these terms (and who rely on gossip, hearsay, rumors and sensationalism to fill most of their time) doesn't have an agenda? What sells more papers and gets more ratings after months and months of hype: "TPM does as expected, people enjoy it" or "Greatest disappointment of all time!! What a letdown!!!"? It happens every year, the media spends a good deal of time hyping a certain project (in every industry: TV, film or music) and then spends every moment after tearing it apart.
If the media was trying to give a balanced, factual view, how come they almost never showed the other side of the story? Because they picked their headline and are sticking with it.
Just look at it, the TPM DVD breaks records the week it is released, what do the papers write "People who hate the movie are the ones buying all the DVD's" The TPM DVD gets into the top 10, despite only being an older film that hadn't been in stores all that long. It still sells more than alot of films that had been on sale longer, but gets beat out by films that had been available for much longer. What's the headline? "TPM sales disappointing." Never mind that it is still on top seller lists while any of the others aren't even close, never mind that no DVD's that have been available as long as TPM are anywhere near it. Where are the stories reporting that? We going to see a sales chart comparing it to other DVD's anytime soon? TPM wins the ratings for the night on a typically low viewership day (Sunday) and despite the fact it's on the 4th rated network, it also gets an unusually high number for a movie of it's length. Any mention of that? Not a peep. How about toy sales. There was a recent article which talked about Lion King toy sales in wonderful glowing, phenominal terms, yet kept referring to TPM sales as dissapointing. THe problem was that they sold nearly the same amount of toys and TPM vastly outclassed it in other areas. Just telling both sides in a fair and balanced way right CeeJay?
That's "just reporting things as they see." No, it's reporting things the way they want us to see them. For GOd's sake the media was slamming Jar Jar Binks before the film even came out.
"You can't just not believe in one poll simply because it disagrees with your own personal likes over another that agrees with your preference."
Funny that's what alot of you and your cohorts seem to be doing. I merely pointed out the flaws in using IMDB as a source.
"If one poll is conducted over a vastly more scale and far more wider and diverse audience then how can you honestly denounce it simply because you do not like the results?"
No, but when the poll/vote is conducted in a highly fishy manner on a site that is well k
Because the story there wasnt "Phantom Menace makes alot of money!!" or "Some people really liked the new SW movie!". These facts were self-evident and incidental to the real story.
The story was, "Boxoffice champ TPM a Failure With Many Critics, Fans", "New SW Movie Has Most Success With Small Children and Loyal Diehards" and so on.
Im sorry, but it is an INHERENTLY negative story. And when i say im sorry, i mean it.
--Kevin Smith: " I'm sure in about a week, it's going to become quite fashionable to bash this flick - hard."
Rolling Stone trends for the year: "Bashing TPM even though you like it." --
Well, lets see, the first is a quote from a (not very good) movie director. A prediction made by a low-budget movie director. So this is just irrelevant to the discussion.
And the next one is part of a "top ten" list in a music magazine. And is also a prediction, not a statement of fact or opinion about the movie or anything even pretending to be journalism. Im sure you can dredge up some ACTUAL journalistic stories that bolster your point if you tried.
sorry, but ive seen these quotes referenced before and its just silly.
I wrote out a big long reply to you, but then erased it. I was upset at the insults you directed toward me and your generally insulting tone, but now looking back I can see what provoked it; I did misrepresent your points. For that, I apologize.
TPM didn't fit into today's pop culture.
See how easy it is? Three years of basher/gusher debates all wrapped up right there.
Sorry here, but I honestly don't understand why the media would have a vendetta toward TPM. There's really nothing substantial to be gained from it. I don't think a line or quote that says something negative like "TPM was dissapointing!" is really going to sell an extra newspaper or magazine. I don't think it affects that many people. Most of these negative reviews are buried inside a magazine or are on internet sites that many never even see. Just who is this vendetta hurting really?
If people liked a movie they'll buy it anyways, despite reviews. The Fast and the Furious (a movie with mixed reaction), Planet of the Apes (mostly bad reviews -- even I own it) and The Grinch (mediocre film) all made staggering DVD records and did well, despite a boatload of reviews calling them "empty-headed, laughable, CG-fests, loud and obnoxious, poor story-telling, Dr. Seuss is rolling in his grave, inferior to the originals (Planet of Apes), etc, etc...." I certainly wouldn't go so far as to call these bad reviews a vendetta of the media. Some films have been burned and scorned far worse than TPM, and it still doesn't make much of a difference.
Are you also forgetting the very same media you are accusing of trying to hurt TPM is the same one that praised it before it's release? Premiere magazine, Movieline Magazine, Time Magazine, Newsweek Magazine, to mention a few of the big ones, all had 10-page cover stories with glossy pics to generate excitement. Even an eventual naysayer of TPM, Time magazine, gave it a positive buzz before release.
"Based on reading the script and seeing scraps of the film, we get intimations of something fresh, handsome, and grand. Naboo's underwater city glows like an Art Nouveau chandelier, while the Jedi Knights' home base, Coruscant, could come from a spiffier 'Blade Runner.' The new sidekick, a computer-birthed frog boy named Jar Jar Binks, is a vexing, endearing, mix of Kipling's Gunga Din and Tolkien's Gollum, and speaks in a pidgin English ("Yousa Jedi not all yousa cracked up to be!") that will be every kid's secret language this summer. Even on paper, the film's set pieces -- a 10-min. Podrace and the climactic battle between the ragged forces of good and the minions of the dark side -- have power and razzmatazz.
That article is just a snippet of a HUGE section for SW. It even had a pull-out poster highlighting PT and OT characters. Do you honestly think the media - who would go through all this -- actually *hated* GL or hated TPM even before it landed in theaters? If they're WAS some conspiracy to hurt TPM they would've bashed it even before it hit theaters. It has happened to less fortunate films
More examples of positive media excitement: Access Hollywood, E!, Extra, MTV, and even the local news channels had segment after segment anticipating the premiere even 2 to 3 months before release. My newspaper had a special pull-out section detailing TPM and the OT. The local news station halted things mid-broadcast to catch a glimpse of the hundred or so people waiting in line for the midnight showing. Afterwards, the male and female anchor both smiled and said "I can't wait to see this one."
For every negative spin on TPM, we can't ignore the positive buzz that went into it. The media didn't have to do any of this but they did, because they are excited about Star Wars too. Now, of course, people loved TPM dearly, but one cannot ignore the group of people who were dissapointed as well. Whether that is in the majority or the minority we'll never know -- unless we did a door-to-door consensus or something. I personally think it's a large portion of dissapointed fans (my coworkers feel TPM was, at best, lukewarm, so do my friends, etc)...but I guess my opinion is not scientific so it's a moot point here.
Dissapointed doesn't = hate. It's just that, dissapointed. It implies they liked, admired, and maybe even loved certain elements, but not quite everything.
How do you explain the almost pathological need to put a negative bent on any story related to TPM? I mean newspapers and magazines are using headlines like "Ewan McGregor lashes out on TPM" and you read the story and it talks about how he was "slightly disappointed" with the fact that there wasn't as much sarcasm in the film. They lead with stories saying "George Lucas admits TPM a failure" and then give quotes about how he feels the merchandise didn't do well. That's almost outright lying on both cases, and only extreme twisting of words can even get you to something remotely resembling their headlines. Not to mention the stuff I already posted about DVD sales, who's buying the DVD, TV ratings and whatnot. It's slam first, don't even bother to ask questions later.
I would like to know what kind of definition Lucas and Hasbro are using though for the merchandise. The TPM line is flat out the biggest Star Wars line, and is one of Hasbro's biggest sellers ever by both of their admissions. They must have had some HIGH expectations, if being the biggest revenue generator for the liscensee and liscenser (and therefore being one of the biggest lines ever) isn't enough. Again, it didn't stop either from making even more AOTC toys. Maybe it's the same line of thinking that caused Pepsi to make 1.3 TPM cans of cola for every person on the planet. I guess they just projected waaaaaaay too high, because that's the only way it can be termed a disappointment.
"And for your own peace of mind keep these points in mind:
1) alot of these gushers are just kids.
2) most or all of them identify very closely with their love for TPM, and any criticism of that stinkburger can make them extremely defensive. Particularly those who are old enuf to know better. "
Better be careful, Dahveed. I like you, but the mods have banned people for less than that.
The question isn't "were the media against TPM from the start?" (they obviously weren't). The question is "Once TPM was found to be a disappointment (which no can argue with) did the media than exaggerate how much of a disappointment it was?" I think the answer is yes they did. I mean, if you listened to the media, you would believe that everyone thought The Matrix was the film TPM should have been. But that's not the case. I, and many of my friends, thought that film was a violence glorifying popcorn trip to hell, but the media didn't report on that, did they?
It was time for Star Wars to be taken down a few pegs. If Lucas had made TPM perfect, the media wouldn't have had any ammunition. But because it wasn't the media amplified all its flaws.
--The question isn't "were the media against TPM from the start?" (they obviously weren't). The question is "Once TPM was found to be a disappointment (which no can argue with)--
Yes they can.
--did the media than exaggerate how much of a disappointment it was?" I think the answer is yes they did. I mean, if you listened to the media, you would believe that everyone thought The Matrix was the film TPM should have been. But that's not the case. I, and many of my friends, thought that film was a violence glorifying popcorn trip to hell, but the media didn't report on that, did they?--
Yes they did.
--It was time for Star Wars to be taken down a few pegs.--
Oh really? SW has been taken down a few pegs. Repeatedly. It has been mocked, it has been blamed for ruining movies, it has been badmouthed over and over in the press.
--If Lucas had made TPM perfect,--
No movie is perfect, and expecting Lucas to make TPM perfect so as to avoid criticism is, IMO, says quite a bit right there.
--the media wouldn't have had any ammunition. But because it wasn't the media amplified all its flaws.--
You expected TPM to be perfect? Again, that says a lot. No wonder you were disappointed.
Why are you arguing with me, Shelley? I'm on your side!
This thread could use a few more Yodas and a lot less Anakins.
Some Captain Tarpals would be nice.
I can do a Ric Olie...
"Hey- those guys don't agree!"