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Senate Trade War

Discussion in 'Community' started by Rylo Ken, Jun 19, 2018.

  1. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    My late father-in-law was a biker but the only one of his bikes that I remember was a Gold Wing. I rode around a couple of blocks on the back of it once and that was enough; I’ll stick to my non-motorized 24-speed bike.
     
  2. J-Rod

    J-Rod Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2004
    I've owned about everything as I was making my way up. The Japanese stuff tended to have better reliability, but Harley has closed that gap pretty much. But Harley's fit and finish is light years ahead. Better paints and far fewer plastic parts disguised as metal.

    Hey, you can buy American too! [face_flag][face_flag][face_flag] :cool:

    For me, it isn't always about what's better. It's about what's in my nation's interest. But I get it. [face_coffee]

    Well I've ridden through the Rockies and the Great Smoky Mountains. On Yammies, Hondas and Harleys.
     
    Mortimer Snerd likes this.
  3. Lordban

    Lordban Isildur's Bane star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2000
    Well, you know how it goes, you love me, I love you, you embargo me, I don't buy from you :p
     
    bluealien1 and J-Rod like this.
  4. Mortimer Snerd

    Mortimer Snerd Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2012
    A Ducati Diavel is hardly average, and are you really basing your argument that Harleys are crap on how you sit on them? Is comfort with having floorboards and forward controls something you're not digging? Also define "hog." In my experience it's the stupid club HD tries to get you to join when you buy one so you can go on poker runs with dentists on the weekends.
     
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  5. FatBurt

    FatBurt Sex Scarecrow Vanquisher star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 21, 2003
    As I say nearly 20 years since I last rode so I'll happily defer to those with more knowledge on this one.


    I'll update my post to be.


    In my experience from 20 years ago Harleys were crap.

    Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
     
  6. Mortimer Snerd

    Mortimer Snerd Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2012
    1998 was a banner year for the FLS 1340 Road Kings, Fat Boys, and ElectraGlides, with nearly 20 years under their belts from being under AMF ownership. That's when I'd argue that Harley quality was lacking, but 20 years ago, no. They were gearing up for the 100th anniversary editions, and were showing record profits during that time (IIRC), based largely on engineering standards being high and the aesthetic of the brand.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2018
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  7. J-Rod

    J-Rod Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2004
    The 80ci (1320 or 1340cc I always forget which) Harley's were underpowered, granted. But they were at the end of the Evolution engine's life cycle, getting ready for the Twin Cam 88. Quality had grown by leaps and bounds. And the aftermarket could really make those things cook!

    But if you were looking for a stock bike with a great 1/4 mile time, that probably wasn't it.

    But the Sporties have always been great performers!
     
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  8. blackmyron

    blackmyron Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2005
    Let's remember that Harley Davidson executives were invited to the White House last year to be told by Trump that they would be 'very happy' with his policies. And that they used the tax breaks to expand business, hire more workers, and increase workers' pay, plus give... I'm kidding, of course. They used the corporate tax cuts to buy back about $700 million in stocks, like most of the corporations did.
    Funny thing about that - they announced the buyback days after closing a plant in Kansas City and laying off 800 people; which, in turn, caused a major supplier to announce they were laying off about 200 people in August. While some 450 jobs were shifted to another H-D plant, we're looking at a net loss already of 550 jobs.
    H-D is planning to eat about $35-$40 million in increased costs for their European Harleys before they can get set up properly - and that is not including the costs for moving manfacturing overseas, which H-D estimates will take 9 to 18 months to complete. Again, all these numbers are coming straight from the corporation. What isn't mentioned? The loss of jobs that will go along with that.

    Trump's reaction? "Surprised that Harley-Davidson, of all companies, would be the first to wave the White Flag... Taxes just a Harley excuse - be patient!"

    Oh, the Kansas City plant closing was at the start of this year - well before all the tariffs went into effect; H-D has been suffering in sales recently. Good time for a massive loss of revenue.

    So no matter how you spin it, Harley Davidson is going to suffer at least $35 million in losses incurred by Trump's little trade war at the very minimum.
     
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  9. Mortimer Snerd

    Mortimer Snerd Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2012
    Harley isn't the only American company that will suffer as a result of absurd policy, but yes you're right, Harley has seen big drops in sales over the last couple of years.

    Please don't worry about their executives though, those guys will be just fine.

    Workers schmerkers.

    I will continue to maintain that Harley Davidson builds excellent bikes, even if they're just as shady as every other major corporation.
     
  10. blackmyron

    blackmyron Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2005
    ... And now Trump is threatening Harley Davidson if they move manufacturing overseas.
     
  11. Lordban

    Lordban Isildur's Bane star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2000
    [face_laugh]
     
  12. Mortimer Snerd

    Mortimer Snerd Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2012
    This is the sort of thing that give the Onion a run for its money.
     
  13. blackmyron

    blackmyron Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2005
    The irony is that Trump's threat is as well thought out as anything he does - he is threatening "high taxes" on bikes made in Europe and then sold back here.
    H-D is planning on moving the manufacture of European bikes to Europe you ****ing idiot.
     
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  14. Darth Punk

    Darth Punk JCC Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 2013
    Turns out the rest of the world is a bigger marketplace than Murica.

    #whoknew?
     
  15. Rylo Ken

    Rylo Ken Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2015
    Also tariff-related layoffs reported by a Missouri nail-manufacturing company. The whole company may go out of business.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...he-first-layoffs-from-trumps-tariffs-are-here

    Can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs, though, amirite?

    More from Trade War Tuesday:

    - entire Iowa Congressional delegation (5 Republicans and one Democrat) warn president Trump that tariffs will hurt Iowa's economy.

    -The EU imposed tariffs on 2.8 billion euros ($3.3 billion) of American products this week in response to duties on its metals exports, and the EU claims it is ready to continue the escalation if necessary

    -Wisconsin cheese makers express concern about tariff impact on dairy industry

    -US equities markets have lost all the gains resulting from the tax cut bonanza.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2018
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  16. J-Rod

    J-Rod Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2004
    The frustrating thing is this: Just wait. This won't last forever. If we hold out we, as a nation, will win.

    They are taking permanent steps to solve a temporary problem.

    Don't get me wrong, this just follows a pattern Harley had already started several years back with the 500 and 750cc Streets...making them outside the US for foreign markets. Because of the unfair tariffs they already have.

    So this may be just an excuse for something they had planned all along.

    Because their existing tariffs make it hard for Harley to compete overseas as it is.

    I know someone who may be selling his 2016 Softail in the near future...
     
  17. Rylo Ken

    Rylo Ken Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2015
    @J-Rod what's your criteria for success or failure in the trade war? How will you know if we've "won" and how will you know if we've "lost"?
     
  18. Lordban

    Lordban Isildur's Bane star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2000
    Actually, whether the USA hold out when they initiated this tariff escalation, they lose. The further they escalate, the more they lose. And if they do outlast other countries, those will simply turn towards other trading partners. Which, with China poised to become nominally the first economy in the world before very long, and already being number one using parity of buying power, is very bad news. The USA should be concerned with drying out China's possibilities for trade, not hand them more of those on a silver platter.
     
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  19. J-Rod

    J-Rod Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2004
    I'm not sure, to be honest. But I remember how much American goods like clothes, coffee, beer, cigarettes ect cost overseas compared to their domestic products. I understand placing tariffs to protect local businesses from being undercut, pricewise. But what I saw there was that countries placed a tariff on our goods to price them out of the market of most folks and to profit from the affluent that buy American because of a perceived status symbol.

    The idea isn't for "no trade." Or even "trade that is all in our favor."

    The idea is fairness. Not "trade all in their favor."

    And face it, without the US, China's economy would collapse. They don't want to stop trade with us anymore than we want to stop trade with them.
     
  20. Lordban

    Lordban Isildur's Bane star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2000
    The explanation behind what is going on is complex and touches on many matters, not just on global trade but also on the global monetary system since the USA unilateraly decided to stop upholding the Bretton-Woods agreements.

    The long and short of it is, the USA incurring large trade deficits is a deliberate choice made decades ago by the USA themselves. Trump is simply deciding to impose tariffs on trade deficits the USA intentionally let happen - he's punishing other countries for the USA's choice.

    So, no, the idea isn't fairness. The idea is the opposite of fairness.
     
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  21. Rylo Ken

    Rylo Ken Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2015
    Before the tariff war, tarriff-based trade barriers to U.S. goods were on average fairly low in the EU. Non tariff-barriers existed, such as European resistance to genetically modified crops, but as with the post above, a trade deficit is not prima facie evidence of trade unfairness. It has more to do with our savings and investment rates. America made a collective cultural and policy choice to consume at the expense of saving. Europeans saved. We spent. Decades of debt spending at the level of individual consumer and the level of state and federal government.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2018
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  22. Lordban

    Lordban Isildur's Bane star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2000
    I'll also point out that after two decades of successive negociation rounds, with successive Democrat and Republican administrations, we were close to having a comprehensive transatlantic trade agreement signed between the USA and the EU. Until Clinton and Trump both decided it wasn't in their own interest.
     
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  23. J-Rod

    J-Rod Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2004
    Interesting. So what you are telling me is that these lop-sided trade agreements are intentional as a form of, I don't know, foreign aid?
     
  24. Lordban

    Lordban Isildur's Bane star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2000
    Not foreign aid at all. The USA are like any other country in the world, looking out for their own interests - that's how the world works.
    Trump is continuing to do just that, and using what prior administrations did as stepping stones.
     
  25. J-Rod

    J-Rod Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2004
    So doing some quick reading, when the US ended the dollar's parity with gold in 1971 making the dollar a fiat currency, Bretton Wood effectively ended?

    That was some time ago. Kind of hard to pin on Trump or Clinton?