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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

JCC Transgender, nonbinary, genderqueer

Discussion in 'Community' started by Darth Dobrolous, Jan 12, 2016.

  1. mrsvos

    mrsvos Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 2005
    Has anyone had to go through training with their employer about gender identity/ harassment , etc.? BN has a great new video called ' Transition to Respect'. 75% of my co workers said they learned so much about gender identity that they never knew. Even the Baptist minister appreciated it. I love my company <3 Except for the video about harassment, that one took like, 3 hours to do.....
     
  2. TrakNar

    TrakNar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 4, 2011
    If I can hunt it down on YouTube, I'll send it to my brother.
     
  3. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011

    Just wondering Trak, have you ever mentioned how this talk makes you feel?
     
  4. TrakNar

    TrakNar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 4, 2011
    A few times, but he continues to hammer his point anyway. I just stop acknowledging him because it's futile to argue.
     
  5. LambdaChop

    LambdaChop Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 12, 2016
    ahhhhhh i would literally die D:
     
  6. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    I see, TrakNar. Sorry your brother isn't being a better tag team partner. Could use more tag ins and double clotheslines.

    Also sorry for reducing this to a wrestling analogy.
     
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  7. Asplundhe

    Asplundhe Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Aug 29, 2016
    is it okay to not give a **** what anyone says they are?
     
  8. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011

    Sure, I guess. At least, I think so. It's not going to endear you to anyone, but it probably won't do much harm, either. To a large extent I simply don't give a **** about most things, especially when it's none of my business and there won't be any consequences.

    I try to make some effort into not letting my apathy inspired ignorance hurt people, though, which means I have to show some sensitivity or otherwise keep my mouth shut. So I have to give a **** enough for that.

    You can go ahead and not give a ****, but I wouldn't be too vocal about it, or too happy with yourself. Saying "Hey, I don't give a **** what you say you are!" to someone is completely lacking in tact.

    If this is part of someone's identity, it's rude to ignore it. You wouldn't refer to Muhammad Ali as Cassius Clay, or Caitlyn Jenner as Bruce Jenner/he/him. It's just rude to deny someone their preferred name or whatever.

    You might also want to avoid unnecessarily referring to the topic of this thread as "nonsense", too.

    Short version: Whatever, just don't be a jerk.
     
  9. TrakNar

    TrakNar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 4, 2011
    I'm fine with that.

    It's when the "I don't care what you say you are" is followed up with a lecture on how transgender is the same as otherkin that it becomes a problem.
     
  10. TrakNar

    TrakNar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 4, 2011
    That feel when...

    You wake up and realize that you no longer can use any public restroom at all now. Before it was unsafe enough. Now it's officially deadly.

    We'll have to piss outside.
     
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  11. LambdaChop

    LambdaChop Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 12, 2016
    trak, honestly, i think you (and a lot of other trans people; you're far from the first i've seen express this sentiment) are getting way ahead of yourself here. nothing's changed on this front over the past 24 hours, nor is it likely to in the future; we're as safe today as we were yesterday, and we will be tomorrow. certainly there's plenty of things to be glum over with this election but this isn't one of them.
     
  12. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    Good to see you checking in, though?

    I'm Ron Burgundy?
     
  13. leiamoody

    leiamoody Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2005
    If you are gender compliant, then this isn't an issue for you. But for many of us who aren't, there has always been the fear and reality of experiencing discrimination and hostility simply because of our existence. The President Elect and his cronies won't do anything to stop discrimination or provide legal protection. If you've never lived in this kind of climate, you can't understand just how bad things can get. Unfortunately I experienced so much of this discrimination when I was a kid in the 1980's, I already know how bad it can be, and fully understand how much worse it's going to get.
     
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  14. LambdaChop

    LambdaChop Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 12, 2016
    i'm not, lol. i'm a transsexual who began medically transitioning years ago but have been dragging my feet on social transition for various reasons. in practical terms this means i don't pass super well as either sex; it's been a coin flip how people gender me for quite some time. (this is regardless of how i dress, by the way, which is as nondescript as possible.)

    so yes, using public restrooms has been pretty fraught for me for awhile. and i live in the south, and work a job that has me driving around a rural county (ie trump territory, judging from the yard signs) all day and not infrequently interacting with the public, so it's not like i'm in some liberal enclave or whatever.

    and look: i'm not totally unconcerned about this. thanks to the ill-advised activist push over the last two years trans issues have been at the forefront of the national consciousness, so i've no doubt at least one or two of the newly elected congresspeople are gonna have trannies on the brain and vague designs on making life more difficult for us in some fashion. it's pushed the timetable of my thus far rather leisurely transition up considerably; i'm feeling for example like it'd probably be prudent to get all my legal stuff in order in the next few months on the off chance some new bureaucrat with a hair up their butt about the transgender agenda decides to make it more difficult to change gender markers on federal documents or whatever. i think there's a pretty good chance the only just recently lifted ban on transsexual military service is gonna be reinstated. with the supreme court staying conservative (and god forbid even shifting further in that direction) i'm even slightly worried obergefell v hodges is gonna get overturned, which since i'm technically a gay male (until and unless i change the sex marker on my birth certificate anyway) affects me directly.

    however. nothing has changed overnight, nor will it for ten more weeks, and the changes that might happen over the course of the next several years aren't going to be nearly as dire for us specifically as people are fretting they will. there's not gonna be any federal bathroom police. there aren't gonna be roving gangs of anti-tran trumpites busting down stall doors and demanding you drop trou. the public peeing situation is the same as it was last week, which granted might not be ideal (it isn't for me!) but isn't gonna get any worse. panic and hyperbole doesn't help anyone.
     
  15. LambdaChop

    LambdaChop Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 12, 2016
    well, alright, so, I did forget that Grimm v Gloucester County Schools is going to happen sometime next year, and that could be... pretty bad, depending on how activist Scalia's replacement is and what direction the rest of the court goes. So. Doesn't change what I said above, but yeah, that's gonna be a thing the election has a bit of an effect on. Not a huge one, since worst case scenario (barring the sudden death or retirement of any other justices) the makeup of the court is the same as it's been for years, but... still some effect.
     
  16. solojones

    solojones Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2000
    Trump is in a weird position, not only with this issue, but with several. Because for instance, he's said that Caitlin Jenner is welcome to use the women's bathroom in Trump Tower. He hasn't explicitly said anything negative about trans people, or indicated what his position as President will be on this issue... however, because he has no actual political positions, I wager he's going to wind up just signing off on whatever the Republican legislature wants.

    But he could find himself in a bit of a dilemma, and he would absolutely deserve it. He's pandered to the worst elements of society. For instance, do you think he really wants to strike down Roe vs. Wade? Quite possibly not. But he's probably going to wind up appointing someone to the SCOTUS who will do just that, simply because that's what the senate and house and Republican advisers will tell him to do.

    So while we don't have any concrete evidence that he'll actively be against trans people, it's definitely quite possible that he'll wind up instituting anti-trans policies, simply because he's decided to play the role of hard line right winger, and I'm not sure he knows how to stop playing that role. He gets so much positive reinforcement for doing it, that he might just keep on doing it. We really don't know.



    Okay, I know this was from a while back, but I wanted to jump in on this, because it's something I've honestly been confused about.

    Gender dysphoria is a totally real psychological condition, no doubt in my mind about that. As I understand it, that's feeling like you're in the wrong body (the same way someone with body dysmorphia might look at themselves in the mirror and actually think they look fat, when they're very thin). To me, that seems like the thing that distinguishes someone who is trans from someone who just doesn't conform to the standards expected of their gender.

    So it does confuse me sometimes when people just claim to be "gender nonconforming", and especially for the notion of non-binary people (who, for instance, might prefer the pronoun 'they' to he or she). I am a very scientifically-oriented person, so it's not hard for me to grasp that someone's brain might tell them they're in the wrong body. But I'm not so sure that's the same thing as saying, "well I don't feel like I conform to either gender, so I am no gender."

    Because if gender is cultural, not actual (and I fully believe that), then considering yourself non-binary seems to be more of an actual personal choice than an inborn aspect of your brain, the way being trans, gay, or bi is. It kind of seems like you're choosing in that case to reject society's notions of the two genders.


    A little perspective on where I'm coming from on this... I am one of the biggest "tomboys" you'll ever meet, and have been my whole life. I wear mostly men's clothing. My room is extremely masculine, and you'd have no idea a girl lived here unless you happened to see that there are some bras in my closet. I absolutely abhor wearing dresses. I don't like feminine colors. I don't relate whatsoever to stereotypically female interests. When the women at work talk about supposedly universal experiences of women or girls as they grew up, I just don't know what they're talking about. I grew up like Huck Finn, building forts in the woods, making things out of mud, riding horses around, taking care of my tree house.

    I have largely male friends. I like mostly typically male interests, like video gaming, or an intense interest in most sports. This is not just a personal preference; it's who I am and who I've always been. As a four year old, you couldn't have made me put on a dress. I was Indiana Jones for Halloween. I told my parents to call me Marty for months after BTTF III came out (my mom still has a tag from one Christmas present to her that I signed this way). I simply do not conform to or relate to or at all resemble anything our society sees as part of being female. I wear mostly men's clothing.

    But, crucially, I don't have that inborn feeling that I'm in the wrong body. I'm not trans. I would never presume to have the same experience as a trans person.

    Because of all these things, I feel like a lot of people in my Millenial generation who are similar to me would say, "well, this means I don't fit either gender, so I am a they, I am non-binary."

    ... but isn't that just accepting what western society considers to be the norms of the two genders? If I did that, wouldn't I basically be saying, "I'm not a real woman because society says this isn't what women are like"?

    I feel like that's the thing that confuses me most about the gender spectrum, and that non-binary identification. If it's not related to a psychological feeling about your body, then it's just a rebellion against societal gender norms. Which is fine, but aren't we kind of doing a disservice to more "masculine" women and more "feminine" men by basically suggesting that they are the ones who don't fit? I feel a bit like non-binary people are arguing that I don't fit my own gender.

    When I would instead argue that society's definition of what it means to be male or female is just wrong, and I'd rather reshape that definition than feel pressure to declare myself not female just because I don't identify with any stereotypically female things.

    I hope this doesn't come across as offensive... it's just something about this issue that truly confuses me, because I feel like it's a sign of letting societal norms win.
     
  17. Negotiator1138

    Negotiator1138 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 23, 2016
    No, this doesn't come across as offensive to me. This is my thoughts exactly. It seems that the label 'non-binary' is perpetuating the gender stereotypes that the very same 'non-binary' seem to hate so much.
     
  18. LambdaChop

    LambdaChop Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 12, 2016
    on the plus side it's difficult to imagine there being much that could be done on the federal level to make things difficult for trans people. My biggest concern at the moment, like i said above, is it becoming more difficult to change the sex marker on federal documents (social security card, passport, and so on). Which sucks but isn't the end of the world.

    in my experience this is basically what's happening, yeah. at an alarmingly increasing rate. the bizarre thing is it doesn't even necessarily mean gender nonconformity anymore either, like with that woman in the Esquire article Ghost posted a couple pages back.

    yep. as a trans person it's especially frustrating because this is a thing transsexuals have long been accused of (and still sometimes are) by radical feminists and others groups on the left... and now here we are, with this burgeoning movement of people doing that very thing. and often calling themselves "trans" or "transgender" while doing so, which especially rankles.

    to be fair, in my experience there are a variety of reasons people (and especially women) identify as nonbinary; rebellion and/or attention seeking is definitely one of them, but as often it's genuine discomfort with gender roles and a lack of knowledge about feminism. I've also seen people who use it as a sort of dissociation mechanism to cope with trauma, or a way of processing other psychological conditions that may have symptoms that superficially resemble sex dysphoria.

    and then of course there are individuals who are actually transsexual (i.e., experience sex dypshoria and will eventually transition physically to the opposite sex) who use nonbinary identities as a sort of stepping stone or in-between state.

    i disagree wholeheartedly with the entire framework, but i do think many of the people subscribing to it are using it to cope with some other issue rather than just being rebellious or whatever.

    yeah. they're also doing a disservice to themselves by not dealing with whatever underlying issues are there head-on and possibly even causing actual harm if they seek medical transition treatments (hormones or surgery) but aren't actually dysphoric and wind up regretting it. one of my big concerns also with the direction activism has been going is that it's going to lead to a backlash as more and more young people find they've made a mistake and detransition and then speak out about it (something that's already happening) that will make access to medical treatment more difficult for actual transsexual people.
     
  19. morrison85

    morrison85 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 13, 2005
    seriously the oh i didnt even want hormones people are negligible. .... I think telling people to be one hard gender or the other, is like telling mixed raced people to be either black or white. O course one could be a masculine woman. or a feminine man. but is feminine (trans gender) man and masculine (transgender) woman a spectum? if theres not nonbinary who decides when you are transgender and when you are just gender nonconforming? Isnt it still to decide by each oneself? What about people that actually feel like no gender or just are neutral in mind? A lot of the things put down in the receent posts are misunderstndings or myths(like the notion that only young people are non binary for special snowflakeness..)
     
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  20. solojones

    solojones Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2000
    I think it's more an example of having a purely individualistic viewpoint. "I feel like this" and "I don't like the gender stereotypes, so I'll call myself neither gender" are understandable feelings and approaches. I just think we should be thinking about this from a societal perspective instead. I think working to transform notions of gender for all would ultimately be more helpful to all types of people, rather than just immediately gratifying as a personal choice.

    As I (and others) have said, if you genuinely feel you are in the wrong body, then by all means we ought to respect that. That's genuine psychological condition. Otherwise, what you're talking about is a personal choice. And that becomes a dangerous thing because it undermines those in the LGBTQ community who don't actually have a choice about their identification. It gives credence and fuel to people who try to argue that being gay or trans is a choice. I'm obviously not speaking of people who are genuinely born with a brain that thinks that way. But simply to people like myself who feel fine with their female bodies, but simply feel out of place because of antiquated gender divisions.

    IMHO, it would be more beneficial to society as a whole if we just band together and say, for instance, "I may not be the typical woman, but I'm still a woman and proud of it. You just need to redefine what you think of as a woman." I get why others might not want to say that, but I just think it's more short-sighted and self-centered. As a "masculine" woman, I would rather girls growing up after me feel like they can still be proud women some day without being feminine, simply because people like me refused to accept society's definition of "feminine."
     
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  21. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    Let's say for the sake of argument that it is a choice, or maybe partially a choice...would that make a difference? I mean religion is a choice, but discriminating against someone because they're Jewish, Hindu or Catholic isn't allowed.
     
  22. solojones

    solojones Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2000
    This was from a while back, but...

    I think it matters for a few reasons. If something is a choice, then like all choices people might see it as having a moral value. Choices can be good or bad much of the time.

    More importantly, though, if it's a choice, then it can be reversed. This is the logic behind things like conversion therapy. And that can be very damaging to a person's mental health. It makes people, especially young people, feel that maybe this is their fault. Maybe the anger or disgust from their family is because of them, not because of a problem with that other person. So I do think it's important not to let it be seen as a choice.

    Also, it's always important as much as possible to accept scientific information. Doctors and psychologists have shown that it's not just a choice you can reverse. Although it's also notable that it's not, as far as all studies have shown so far, genetic. And we've gathered enough genetic data that some correlation on this would probably have been found by now if it were down to a few genes. This likely means it's environmental at an early age. Could be hormones, could be a part of everyone's brain that only gets switched on in some people. It's still a very interesting question from a scientific standpoint.

    But again, whatever we find out about the origins of everyone's sexuality (including straight people, and asexuals), what we at least know so far is that people have no conscious control over it. It's not a choice, and because it isn't, it's not something you can erase from our society. Many many societies have used the logic of "it's a choice" to oppress people in a very concrete manner by trying to "fix" them.

    Obviously people can be persecuted for tons of other things that are a choice, from their religion to the way they dress to marrying outside their race or culture. But it doesn't apply to gay, bi, or trans people.
     
  23. Darth Dobrolous

    Darth Dobrolous Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2016
    I can't be the only transwoman to be a Star Wars fan? :)
     
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  24. Diggy

    Diggy Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Feb 27, 2013
    No, probably not.
     
  25. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    You're not.
     
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