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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

JCC Transgender, nonbinary, genderqueer

Discussion in 'Community' started by Darth Dobrolous, Jan 12, 2016.

  1. solojones

    solojones Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2000
    Thanks for the explanation re: mental health, Ben. I hope it's understood that I'm not at all saying that I think people experience gender disphoria can be medicated out of it. I think the treatment is transition. But it's also helpful hearing your perspective and why the parsing matters to folks like you.
     
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  2. poor yorick

    poor yorick Ex-Mod star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2002
    So I've read a couple of articles in the last day or two . . . one of them is the one I mention in the OP of the problems of masculinity thread: What Is It Like To Be A Man? by Phil Christman. I've summarized it in the other thread, so I won't do it again. All I'll point out is what Christman wrote in a footnote: "As I wrote this essay, I fretted that an argument that seems to reject masculinity as an ideal would insult trans men: Here I am, thoughtlessly tossing aside what they spend blood and treasure to realize." He also provides a link to an article I've read previously, On Liking Women by Andrea Long Chu. Chu also talks about what trans people--herself as a trans women, particularly--"spend blood and treasure to realize:"

    What Chu is getting at here is that a trans identity is rooted in passionate desire, a longing for something. That's controversial, since received liberal wisdom is that trans people are missing nothing, they are complete as they are, and therefore should have nothing to long for. It is certainly true that trans people are not defective people who are wishing to become whole somehow--or at least wishing to become whole in some way that is not dictated by the universal human condition. That's a myth. However, it's also a myth that most people transition because some white light appears to them in their earliest years and says, "Thou art a girl," (or a boy, or a non-binary person). These things are not usually that easy. Those of us who "spend blood and treasure"--and emotional energy, and social capital--in changing our bodies and our role in society generally do so out of a deep and frankly non-rational need, "The heart wants what it wants."*

    What is it that we want, exactly? Or more importantly to me, what is it that I want? I can tell you that in my case it's not to fulfill a male gender role, as Christman theorizes, and it's not what Chu calls the "traditional trappings" of gender, either--the male equivalents of lipstick and mascara. (Which would be what? Beer and engine grease?) The truth is that I have difficulty articulating what I want.

    All I can tell you is that I can dimly recall a time when I didn't know what gender was, and I didn't care. I have no sense of any gender awareness in myself before the age of three or four. Then at some point in my preschool years, it was brought to my attention that childhood was divided into two "teams," boys and girls, and I was supposed to be on the girls' team. And I said, "Wait--what?" I can remember being about three and getting into an argument with a stranger, an older lady who was convinced that my hat was "a cowgirl hat." I told her about a dozen times that it was a cowboy hat, because it was my hat and I said so, until my mother took pity on me and deftly re-directed the lady's attention. Why was it so important to me that my hat be a boy's hat? I really don't know. I have no better explanation for why I picked a boy's name and begged my mother to call me by it, or why I preferred to dress as male characters for Halloween, or why I wanted to be Luke Skywalker rather than Princess Leia. All I know is that I didn't do any of these things for dry, intellectual reasons. Something about boys and the masculine world drew--and still draws--me like a magnet. I'll probably never know why.

    Chu wants her readers to understand that gender identity isn't some nice, neat, clean thing divorced from the messiness of the human heart, and I agree with her. I rather wish she hadn't worded some things in the way she did, however, such as:

    This only begs the question of what "a woman, period" actually is, and it makes it sound as if trans women are what TERFs and other anti-trans people say they are: fundamentally men, longing for the perceived perks of womanhood. I'm not sure it helps anyone to cast things in those terms. I don't think of myself as wishing I were a man, period. What's a "man, period?" Stubble? A dick? A love of football? Crushing beer cans on one's forehead? I can live without all those things. I am after something ineffable, and therefore, probably unobtainable. Or as Chu puts it:

    * It's worth pointing out that there are some people who identify as something other than the gender they were assigned at birth, and yet feel no need to fundamentally change anything about themselves. Sometimes they are dismissed as being "not trans enough," which strikes me as nonsensical (who gets to gatekeep the borders of Trans-land and why would anyone bother?) Sometimes such individuals are congratulated as being the wokest of the woke--after all, if gender is an arbitrary social construct and a man or woman can look like and be absolutely anything, why is a binary transition necessary? I'll admit that is a logical question, but it's one with no logical answer. I'll say again: The heart wants what it wants.
     
  3. solojones

    solojones Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2000
    I feel like I have to jump in to comment on that last point, because in some ways the type of person you speak of is very much like me.

    We've talked about this privately, but I wanted to talk about it a little publicly.

    When you describe your childhood, Ben, it sounds exactly like mine. As soon as I was old enough to express myself, I never, ever wanted to wear dresses. Still don't. When I played, I played male characters 100% of the time. I was Indy for Halloween when I was 4, complete with thick eyebrows and fake stubble painted on. I signed my mom's Christmas present "Marty" for Marty McFly. I had a Ninja Turtles themed third birthday. Once I started going to school, I didn't want girl clothes, I just wanted my older brother's hand me downs. I loved football and building forts and playing in the mud and, in many ways, was more boyish even than my cis brother.

    Looking back, if I were growing up now, I think it's highly likely someone along the way would have wondered if I were trans and guided me in that direction. It's at least possible. And I don't know how to feel about that.

    Because I don't feel uncomfortable in my body, but I feel super uncomfortable with the normal trappings of girl and womanhood, my take has always been that we just need to expand our view of girl and womanhood.

    But the problem is, if I'm honest, I've never met another woman like me. My mom for instance doesn't like makeup and loves football, but still enjoys other girl things like getting dressed up in dresses and jewelry to go out.

    All I know is, sometimes I wish I were fully and obviously trans because it would almost be easier. As it is, I can't claim to be a part of any community or anything. I just get to feel totally uncomfortable with my lack of usual womanhood all by my lonesome. It's rather isolating.
     
  4. poor yorick

    poor yorick Ex-Mod star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2002
    Gender identity is such a strange thing . . . it's not a way of dressing, or a set of interests, or a sexual orientation, or anything like that. It's almost a null category, it is a thing which contains no moving parts. It just is what it is. Maybe it has something to do with differences in brain structure. Or not. I don't know. Who can say why you identify as you do, and I identify as I do?

    I can definitely see how you'd feel isolated. I wish I knew an answer for that. Some people in your position consider themselves nonbinary, but you mentioned to me before that you don't feel that discription fits you. I can identify with a lot of what you say . . . I really gave being female the old college try. I was miserable, and I was terrible at it, by all conventional metrics.

    Just out of curiosity, as a kid, did you ever make believe you were a boy--apart from all other categories? Like not "a male cowboy," or "a male astronaut," or "a male adventuring archaeologist." Just you, but male. I did . . . it occurs to me now that was a bit odd. Who plays pretend by doing exactly what you would otherwise be doing, only answering to a different name and set of pronouns? It wasn't necessarily the outward expressions of masculinity that attracted me . . . the mud and the caterpillars and the obsession with Batman. It was something about the inner experience of maleness that called to me.

    Perhaps that's the fine razor that separates me from you?
     
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  5. Pensivia

    Pensivia Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 24, 2013
    I just wanted to say that as a middle-aged cis woman who is currently trying to better understand and learn how to best support an AFAB teen (17 years old) I am very close to who currently identifies as a "transgender nonbinary demi-male" (her* chosen terms) and who is just beginning to socially transition, I really appreciate the personal stories and reflections being shared here. (I've been reading tons about transgender identities, etc. around the web too.)

    (*she has stated that she is fine with she/her pronouns)
     
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  6. poor yorick

    poor yorick Ex-Mod star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2002
    It's great that you're doing the homework, Pensivia. :) The young person you're close to is lucky to have you as an ally. Just out of curiosity, have you or she ever checked out Susan's Place? It's a transgender resource site that has a dedicated forum for people under the age of 18. Having support from peers can help a lot.
     
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  7. Pensivia

    Pensivia Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 24, 2013
    Thanks, yorick :) I know I have read a few forum posts from Susan's Place that came up for some of the searches I've been doing, but I didn't realize it has a dedicated space just for young people. Not sure if my "niece" (not by blood but the child of a close friend) knows about the teen forum yet, but I will definitely pass that info along! She at least has a LGBT group at school that she joined in the spring, so that hopefully is another good place of support for her. I will do some further reading at SP myself now, too.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2018
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  8. solojones

    solojones Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2000
    Well, sorta. My friends and I had boy names for all of us that we'd call each other by, though the other girls are all normal women now. It's just that I never grew out of my tomboy ways with puberty like everyone else did.
     
  9. Ava G.

    Ava G. Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2016
    Have you ever thought about going full butch for a while to see how it fits?
     
  10. solojones

    solojones Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2000
    I mean I wear men's shorts, shirts, and shoes whenever possible. But I can't wear anything but women's capris and business casual shirts to work. So work dress code forces me to wear lady stuff, which I don't like. People comment that they like my shirt and I want to be like, "well my mom picked it out. I'd rather be wearing a tshirt".
     
  11. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    This made me laugh so loudly. *high five*

    I don't care about clothes at all. When people comment on my clothes, I don't know what to do other than blink at them.

    Not gonna lie. I used to (and still occasionally do) give my sisters money and tell them to go buy clothes for me.

    I'm a guy, though. So. I'm not under the same pressure you are.
     
  12. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I hate clothes shopping with a passion, and when I do clothes shop, it’s at The Gap 90 percent of the time unless I’m buying running clothes. I know what they sell, I know what size I wear, I know the clothes hold up well, and I can get clothes that are dressy enough for work but still comfortable—and because I know the store, I can get what I need and get out of there in 15 minutes or so. I’ve been known to let my mother and sister shop for me too, because they enjoy it and I don’t.
     
  13. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    That's my kind of shopping. I like to know exactly what I'm looking for and exactly where it is. My goal is to make a beeline straight to what I'm looking for, grab it, and head out.
     
  14. Ava G.

    Ava G. Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2016
    I'm fine with taking my time to look around. I go to thrift or charity places, unless someone insists on buying me clothes at Walmart. I prefer the former, cuz the selection is always a lot more interesting. That's why my fashion says, "I'm from a country and time period that never actually existed!"
     
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  15. poor yorick

    poor yorick Ex-Mod star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2002
    What do you guys think of raising "theybies?" I.e., not telling anyone the sex of your child until the child is old enough to say what gender they identify as. The article poses some potential negatives--mostly the high likelihood that a non-gender-conforming child is going to be bullied in school. However, the vast majority of kids sort out what gender they identify with by age 3 or 4, which is well before they're trapped in school with potential bullies all day. It seems like it will probably be a non-issue. However, I'm also not convinced that raising genderless toddlers is going to do the kids any good. Core gender identity is probably determined by brain development in the womb, and in at least some cases is likely genetic. These kids are going to be who they're going to be whether you call them "they" or not. I suppose refusal to identify infants' sex might get other people to treat them differently, which could theoretically produce a different outcome for them. But frankly, toddlers have very limited social circles. Anyone who's done more than the most casual caregiving for a theyby is going to have seen them without a diaper, and is going to be aware of their biological sex. And people who have done less than casual caregiving aren't likely to have much impact on the child. I mean, do you remember the moms and dads of your preschool friends when you were 3? Neither do I.

    As far as I can tell, the primary effect of raising a theyby is to annoy the hell out of strangers and the parents' casual acquaintances, especially the more conservative ones. Annoying conservative strangers can definitely be entertaining, and might be worth pursuing for its own sake. I just don't think it'll make much of a difference for the theyby.
     
  16. Pensivia

    Pensivia Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 24, 2013
    Interesting concept...I will check out that "theybies" link.

    I've been trying to do research/reading on this, because in my "niece's" case, she showed no signs of gender identity issues/gender dysphoria until puberty began (she characterizes it this way herself). I'm not at all asking you to do my research for me (!), but just offhand, do you happen to know of any good material on this point (age when a sense of internal gender identity in conflict with sex assigned at birth typically begins)?
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2018
  17. poor yorick

    poor yorick Ex-Mod star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2002
    You're quite right--while most kids seem to have at least an inkling of their core gender by 3 or 4, they don't all! I've talked to people who had no idea they were trans until well into adulthood. Sometimes such people feel ignored and slighted because everyone seems to focus most on the "I knew in kindergarten" stories. I'm afraid I don't have much more than anecdotal information about people who realize their gender identity later in life. If you like personal stories about the issue, there are a couple of threads on Susan's Place you could check out:

    When Did You Know You Were...
    For those that didn't know as a child - When, and how did you figure it out?
     
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  18. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    As someone who found out the gender of both of her children via ultrasound in order to avoid referring to her child as “he or she” until birth, I would find a “theybie” annoying, especially since “they” is third person plural.

    So not bad, not morally wrong, just annoying and not something I would personally do, and I think it’s possible to support a gender nonconforming person at the time he or she comes out, without establishing a “you decide” parameter at birth.
     
  19. Ava G.

    Ava G. Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2016
    You know what's weird? I'm almost 30, and as far back as I can remember it was always acceptable to use singular they. The same elementary school teachers who would get onto you for starting a sentence with and or but were A-OK with they for one person of indeterminate gender. Nobody ever debated it online either for the longest time.

    Now it's suddenly a debate. A silly one.
     
  20. Ava G.

    Ava G. Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2016
    Still forming my opinion on this.

    The quoted line might be the crux of the matter, and it ties into what you and Pensivia discussed right after. Some children don't understand or embrace who they are inside until puberty, or way later in adulthood. How likely is it that those kids would've come out much sooner had they had theybie-positive (lol "they be positive") parents who encouraged them to play in a gender sandbox?

    @Pensivia Please keep us updated on your nephew/niece. It's possible that hormonal fluctuations are causing them confusion, and this is just a phase... or it could be something more significant.
     
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  21. Pensivia

    Pensivia Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 24, 2013
    I seem to remember something like that from school as well (though it's been even longer for me as I'm over 40:p). And I think it has continued to be used that way, at least informally, (even completely separately from the more recent attention to its use as a common preference of declared non-binary people ).
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2018
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  22. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    My Dad was a newspaper editor. I couldn’t even get away with using “lay” (a transitive verb) in place of “lie” (an intransitive verb) or using “they” when talking about a club (the club itself is singular, members of a club can be referred to in plural). So I may be operating on older grammar rules.

    More on topic—my kids had a lot of blue clothing when they were babies but they had clothes in other colors too. I’m always surprised to see baby-girl nurseries and wardrobes that look like a Pepto-Bismol factory blew up. Maybe the middle of the road is, sure, refer to your kid by the pronoun of the gender he or she was born with until he or she tells you otherwise, but avoid the monochromatic wardrobes.
     
  23. Pensivia

    Pensivia Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 24, 2013
    I did watch the short "theybies" video clip. I'm not really sure what I think about it. Just from a practical perspective, it seems like it would be really difficult to implement thoroughly. (For example: unless you get only "theybie" stories to read to them, wouldn't even a toddler be confused when you would read a story that used "he" and "she" and be likely to ask "am I a he or a she?" Or wouldn't the toddler be confused at using "he" or she" to refer to others around him/her when they are only being referred to as "they"? Of course, I could be all wrong--I don't have kids and though obviously I've been around toddlers in various situations over the years, I don't have a day-in-day-out level of experience in this area.)

    But I do think the idea of trying to shield a child from gendered socialization for as long as possible is intriguing. And I think that even if as adults we don't actually remember things that were said to us or how people other than our parents treated us when we were under 5, it seems likely to me that those early interactions could still have some sort of impact on our development.

    I would be very interested to read stories on how things progressed for these "theybie" kids on down the line...
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2018
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  24. solojones

    solojones Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2000

    Yeah I basically just operate like a guy when it comes to clothes. I mean, I can appreciate the talents of the people on Project Runway as much as the next person, but I can't say that I know how to dress myself... Or care at all.

    That's the only place where my old job was better than this one. A casual work environment meant I could wear my dude clothes.
     
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  25. Darth Punk

    Darth Punk JCC Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 2013
    Bringing this here from my recent peep show thread
    Wow, I’m shocked. I had no idea. As much as I get a kick out of his work, I’ve never known much about Webb’s life.

    So, after a day of catch up googling it appears to me that he does hold TERF views, and has also taken a position on trans kids that Twitter is also taking him to task on.

    There’s an outside chance he’s an ignoramus. A lot of folk are throwing him lifelines so we’ll see.

    It does affect one’s enjoyment of an artists work when the reveal themselves to be bigoted. I can’t enjoy Morrissey anymore since he came out in support of a British nationalist recently.