TRANSITION TO VADER: "The neat little thing"

You provide a list of films in a straw man argument tactic, films that few would say that Ani/Vader transition scene would reference. ... He is referencing the style of the films of that era, not copying their plots or mise en scene. So it is not limited to one film but to the vocabulary of the 30s and 40s.

Indeed, he is not referencing any of those films. That was my point. Perhaps it was too subtle.

Why would he reference Gone With The Wind? It would be ridiculous. That's why I mentioned those films. To highlight how ridiculous it would be to reference films that have no bearing on the scene.


So what films are not ridiculous? What films WOULD that scene reference?

Why, that would be Frankenstein ...

Can you name any other film that it would reference?

Name one single movie from the 1930s / 1940s, apart from Frankenstein, that is not a ridiculous reference for that scene.


He is referencing the style of the films of that era, not copying their plots or mise en scene. So it is not limited to one film but to the vocabulary of the 30s and 40s.

And so I say again: to which style do you refer? You speak as if there was a single, all-encompassing archetypal style that covers all films of the 30s/40s - which I believe I have illustrated is not the case, unless you honestly believe that Gone With The Wind, Snow White, The Keystone Kops, and Abbott and Costello all exemplify this same archetypal style of the 30s/40s ...

And you can then explain how Lucas believed that mentioning this all-encompassing archetypal "style of the 30s/40s" would be considered a spoiler for the content of the transformation scene ...

If it is something so abstract that it is exemplified in no single film, as you say, but all films in general, or even in a sub-sample of films, then how is it Lucas was worried that it would give away the scene...?

 

Again, we won't be seeing a big green guy with a flat skull and bolts sticking out of his neck anytime soon in the Star Wars saga. So any discussion of Frankenstine's monster is irrelevant.

When did anyone say we would see Frankenstein's monster?

It's the now-archetypal image of Frankenstein's monster being resurrected on a slab that is under discussion, not Anakin turning into the Hulk.



EDIT: And with that, I go to bed. Please don't take my lack of responses as acquiescence...

 

All right! All right! We get you! God! The resurrection scene may be simillar to Frankenstine. Why does it matter? The arena scene in AotC was simillar to Gladiator, and the Boonta Pod Race in TPM was like Ben-Hur... I still fail to see why this reference is more important that those.

 

...because the final revelation might be that Anakin actually dies.

 

If he dies and is brought back to life by Sids/Palps, he hasn't made a choice to become Palpatines servant, he basically HAS to. Lucas has said Anakin makes a choice to fall to the Dark Side and serve Palpatine. It makes Anakin, and by extension Vader, look weak.

No. I don't think Anakin dies.

 

Well, if Anakin can be born of an immaculate conception, why is it out of the realm of possibility that he literally dies and is resurrected? He is sent back to the galaxy to save his son. It just takes a little time and lots of suffering before it happens.

 

If he dies and is brought back to life by Sids/Palps, he hasn't made a choice to become Palpatines servant, he basically HAS to. Lucas has said Anakin makes a choice to fall to the Dark Side and serve Palpatine.

Actually, both can be true at the same time. By all spoiler reports at the moment, Anakin does choose to serve Palpatine and the dark side before they ever get to the duel and the suit.

So, Anakin could still make his choice to go dark, kill the Younglings as hinted in spoilers, kill the Seperatist leaders, duel with Ben, and then die, becoming Palpatine's slave (which ironically, would never have happened, but for Anakin's original choice to side with Palpatine/Dark Side).

So............. what GL said is still true. Even if Anakin ends up dying after the duel.

 

Because it makes him look weak. We need to be shown that the Dark Side is strong enough to overcome anything, and that is why it should be feared.

It's possible, but I hope it doesn't happen. I know Star wars physics and biology aren't always realistic, but Lucas doesn't go out of his way to violate basic physical and biological principals. One of them is that electricity CANNOT bring somebody back from the dead, ala Frankenstine. They can cause the nerves to twitch, but no amount will bring it back to life. In fact, too much or overlong exposure to said current will fry the nerves, rendering them useless.

It's possible they use the Dark Side to revive him, but if the Dark Side can be used to revive people that are dead, why doesn't Palpatine just resurrect all the bodies of his already dead Stormtroopers? Then he'd have a limitless army. Hell, why not resurrect Maul and Dooku? then he could have three apprentices to do his bidding. Or he could be risque and clone them and use that little technique of making clones more docile, and have a whole army of undead, Jedi-ass-kicking, completely loyal Sith Lords at his disposal.

C'mon. This ain't Night of the Living Dead, people.

 

I wish I registered and knew about this here a long time ago. So much back reading I can't even keep up

 

Who's talking horror films? I'm talking Biblical themes.

 

I definately agree about the literal Frankenstein/Electricity/Resurrection.

Because it makes him look weak. We need to be shown that the Dark Side is strong enough to overcome anything, and that is why it should be feared.

Wouldn't the fact that Anakin came back to life show that the dark side is strong enough to overcome death itself? What higher power could it overcome past the mortal coil?

If he does die, i'd say that it would be Dark Side powers that bring him back. As to why not do that all the time, we all know that certain actions through the force can be taxing. We've seen Yoda strain to lift large items, etc. It could be that a resurrection is the ultimate drain/force use. Not something you can do like a parlor trick, or anything.

Either way, i'm not sure that it would happen. I also would personally prefer for him not to die/be resurrected. But the possibility definatley can't be disproven at this juncture that I can see.

 

Again, you're asking why the Palpatine couldn't just use the Dark Side to resurrect Anakin or whatever, correct?

Why stop there? why not raise his other two apprentices, and use them to kick more Jedi ass?

Or are you suggesting that Anakin is Jesus-like and the Force Itself resurrects him? If that is so, that hits extremely close to home, as I can't stand Christianity. I would literally get a few of my other pagan-minded friends together and boycott this movie.

Again, electricity cannot raise the dead either. It's biologically impossible. I don't care if it comes from the Dark Side itself, if it's electricity like the kind that's flowing through your computer right now, it wouldn't bring Anakin back to life. All the electricity in the universe couldn't if he was dead more than a few hours. In fact, it just might

"blow him up!"

I KNOW it's not going to be proven or disproven until we see the movie. At least, electricity in the sense we know it won't do it, so that idea is pretty much out the window. It's possible the Force is used to raise him, but I think that would be a cop-out.

Besides, I think it's a much greater show of power on the part of the Dark Side if it's able to keep somebody alive after falling into molten lava. Any religious figure can come back to life, not many I know can withstand dying in the first place. LOL

 

I'd advise you to lay-off Christianity bashing in the thread. Things could get unpleasant in here really fast.

I'm a buddhist, but there are plenty of Christians in here who could get offended.

 

"Porn comes not long after."

Ba-dum-crash

Anyways, I will say one good thing about Emos' link - I'm happy to see www.originaltrilogy.com posted on a film buff's website.

"It never ceases to amaze me that this comment by George Lucas, a comment which said absolutely nothing, has gone this far. The man needs to give his fans a few more comments about Episode 3."

I've been saying this as well....cabin fever. Lucas is only hurting TF.n, not helping.

"Well, if Anakin can be born of an immaculate conception, why is it out of the realm of possibility that he literally dies and is resurrected? He is sent back to the galaxy to save his son. It just takes a little time and lots of suffering before it happens."

I'll go you one better - the Force seems to go out of its way to protect Anakin, which makes sense, since he is the Chosen One.

That being said, what if he isn't allowed to be killed, or is somehow resurrected by the Force, and Anakin is somehow convinced that Palps was responsible for it? Anakin would then be grateful to Palps, instead of seeing how much power he has all by himself in the Force.

Just a thought.

"Who's talking horror films? I'm talking Biblical themes."

You are aware that the Bible contains some horrible stories, right?

 

I really find it amazing that people don't see the obvious parallel to Frankenstein. I mean, it is practically a given. If George didn't mean it, it is one tremendously monstrous coincidence or stroke of luck?

Wait, there is no such thing as luck.

Not to say that is entirely 1000% pure Frankenstein, just a nod and a twist and a SW version of the classic scene.

Just the blatant nods (gothic structures, flying bat creatures, a Dracula, the Mummy and others) in AOTC to the classic horror flicks is a huge tip off.

 

Of course I have. Thousands upon thousands die throughout the Old Testament in horrible, unimaginable ways.

 

I am on board with the nod to Frankenstein scene however, I don't think Anakin ever dies......Palps just rebuilds him:

1) Anakin is kept alive by his own "black will."

2) The dark side is bad, giving it the power to conquer death wouldn't be a good message for the kids, ya know.

 

Anakin dieing and coming back is something that fits in very nicely with his character arc.

His destiny has always been to bring balance to the force. However you decide to look at it, Anakin's life was about his struggle to come to terms with himself and his place in the world. Him falling over to the darkside is no way connected to his destiny - it's more like a hiccup. He was meant to bring the balance, but chose to follow another path. Now, if he were to die without fulfilling his destiny, it wouldn't be his time to end. In that case, he is sent back until his destiny is fulfilled. The key factor here is that the Emperor will feel that he is one to bring him back, and although Anakin has embraced the darkside, he will feel indebted to Palpatine (hence "I must obey my master").

Anakin is sent back by powers beyond and nobody is the wiser. Finally, Anakin sees his destiny calling back at him and accepts it. Now, I don't know about anyone else, but I can see the Frankenstein concept fitting into here perfectly.

 

so is the "neat little thing" his ressurection?

that would be probably be a "big melodramatic, and potentially messy thing"

 

Or are you suggesting that Anakin is Jesus-like and the Force Itself resurrects him? If that is so, that hits extremely close to home, as I can't stand Christianity.

Why wait? Boycott now. He already had a Virgin Birth. And Anakin is forgiven for his sins at the end.

So you and your Pagan friends can continue to wander the earth lost and aimless... and forget SW.

Because it makes him look weak. We need to be shown that the Dark Side is strong enough to overcome anything, and that is why it should be feared.

But, the Dark Side is NOT strong enough to overcome anything. It is a key to mortal power. Longevity and power, not immortality.

"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine..."

Well, if Anakin can be born of an immaculate conception, why is it out of the realm of possibility that he literally dies and is resurrected?

With all due respect, it IS perfectly plausible in the SW universe.

But, I highly doubt that Lucas will actually kill him and ressurrect him. The key to immortality is reserved for the light side of the Force, as Obi-Wan's quote implies.

Mortal power vs Eternal Life. The trade off of Evil vs Good.

Lucas already has his version of ressurrection and it is preserved for the good guys. Yes, MatthewZ

Still like the Franky theory, I just don't believe he will be totally dead.

 

I agree that the resurrection will probably be relegated to the end of the series (as salvation).

By the way, virgin births and resurrections are not strictly Christian themes. They turn up in all cultures and religions.
I think we need to go back and reread our Joe Campbell. (GL's blueprint for SW)

So there.

 

Remember though, if Anakin does die and is brought back to life, with the Dark Side sustaining him, Anakin still has to make the choice to serve Palpatine and the Dark Side. Anakin doesn't have to live, he can choose death at any time, if he so wish's. And of course, at the end of ROTJ he does choose death.

I'm pretty sure now, that the dark side is sustaning Vader throughout the OT, the only question for me, is the extent of his injuries. I actually wouldn't be too surpised if he does die, and get's brought back.

And of course, the whole thing is very Frankenstein 'ish.

 

Ozhaggins wrote:

Name one single movie from the 1930s / 1940s, apart from Frankenstein, that is not a ridiculous reference for that scene.

I'm thinking Emos will come up with The Third Man.

 

This could possibly occur earlier in the film, but I believe it happens when Anakin is pulled from the fiery pit after 'the duel.' A resurrection of Anakin by Palps puts Anakin in a state of total physical and mental dependence towards Palpatine.

 

THE PASSION OF THE CHOSEN ONE

"Well, if Anakin can be born of an immaculate conception, why is it out of the realm of possibility that he literally dies and is resurrected?"

Well, considering the fact that recent movies are taken into account by the production crew when designing the films' art directions (AotC = Pearl Harbor, Gladiator, Perfect Storm) I wouldn't be surprised to see The Passion Of The Christ as a major influence for the Mustaphar sequence. TPOTC broke new grounds in terms of graphic violence allowing Lucasfilm to push it a little further this time and still manage to get away with a PG 13.

TPM: Immaculate conception (Pernilla August -Shmi-does look exactly like Maia Morgenstern -Mary-)
and youth of the chosen one until he finally meets his destiny

AotC: The Chosen One faces his first real trials as a young man, having to deal with his own powers, accepting them, the frustration, the anger, the fear, and for the first time love, not the unconditional "Jedi" one but the forbidden romantic kind

EP3: Death of the Chosen One

ANH/ESB: Hell

RotJ: Resurrection of the Chosen One