TRANSITION TO VADER: "The neat little thing"

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by TEXAS, Aug 27, 2002.

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  1. Hudnall Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2004
    star 5
    That is an interesting analogy on the Hell. I agree, it is a form of Hell. His life becomes hell as the cost of power.

    Though, I seriously doubt that he completely dies. Though he may be so lifeless, that no one will ever truly know.

    His complete physical death is saved for ROTJ.

  2. Handmaiden- Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2003
    star 4
    Well, this was an interesting thread.

    Frankinstein, Jesus, or Horror Film? Hmm.

    I guess I'd prefer not to have Anakin die. Since he's been so famous for his line, "..stop people from dying", I'd go with the idea that any other person should have died from his injuries, but he is so filled with evil and hatred, he manages to overcome death and live on, albeit inside the Vader suit. I want it to be his choice that he survives, because it makes the OT all the more meaningful.
  3. Psychotic_Sith Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2004
    star 3
    If Anakin dies, why wouldn't Palpatine just clone him using cells that live on after death, such as fingernail cells, and make him more docile? Then he would have a COMPLETELY loyal Darth Vader, and one that wouldn't be encombered by a bulky suit and could live without it, therefore being faster, more agile, etc.
  4. Emos-Edud Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2002
    star 4
    Psychotic Sith,

    I think we are going to learn in Ep3 that cloning a force user just gives you a regular person. That may be the reason that the clonetroopers were based on Jango and not some force-sensitive (not Jedi or Sith) warrior. The midichlorians needed for force sensitivity can't be artificially cultured. Only the Force can decide who it will speak to, so using cloning to get around death won't work that way.
  5. FutureEmperor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 1998
    star 3
    This has got to be one of the most absurd ideas proposed on this board and would absolutely ruin what little beauty remains in the PT and arguably would ruin the spirit of EVERYTHING that happens in the OT.

    Kind of like the Emp resurrecting via clones to come back in the Dark Empire series--TERRIBLE.
  6. JustinPeeler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2003
    star 4
    Psychotic Sith,

    I think we are going to learn in Ep3 that cloning a force user just gives you a regular person. That may be the reason that the clonetroopers were based on Jango and not some force-sensitive (not Jedi or Sith) warrior. The midichlorians needed for force sensitivity can't be artificially cultured. Only the Force can decide who it will speak to, so using cloning to get around death won't work that way.


    "Always two there are, no more, no less"-- Yoda.

    "But there could never be any more than two of them, because if there were, they would try to get rid of the leader, which is exactly what Vader was trying to do, and that's exactly what the Emperor was trying to do."-- George Lucas.

    "We thought a Jedi would be the ideal candidate, but Master Syfo Dyas hand picked Jango Fett"-- The ATOC novelization.

    My point? Why on Earth would Palpatine want to clone more Jedi/Sith when the point of thw war was to eliminate the Jedi, and if you get more than one Sith they would join up and kill him?

    There is no evidence that midis can't be cloned, and what does this have to do with what we were talking about???
  7. Psychotic_Sith Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2004
    star 3
    The point:

    We know from the AotC novelization that Jedi, when cloned, have just as much ability to use the Force as before. So why, if Vader did die, wouldn't Sidious just use some of the cells that continue to live on after death {like fingernail cells} and create a clone, make it more docile, and train it? After all, it would be COMPLETELY loyal to him, and it wouldn't be so encombered by the life suit Vader is confined to.

    BTW, Emos us just trying to advance the "Palpy=Clone" theory. Pay him no mind.
  8. JustinPeeler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2003
    star 4
    The point:

    We know from the AotC novelization that Jedi, when cloned, have just as much ability to use the Force as before. So why, if Vader did die, wouldn't Sidious just use some of the cells that continue to live on after death {like fingernail cells} and create a clone, make it more docile, and train it? After all, it would be COMPLETELY loyal to him, and it wouldn't be so encombered by the life suit Vader is confined to.


    I think it's because if you make a clone more docile, it can't command the Force.

    The Force should been seen, especially on the Dark Side, as the ability to bend reality to your will. Concentration and deep meditation are essential traits to Jedi training.

    The best way to make someone docile is to give them decreased cognitive abilities and to make them open to suggestion, to make them weak minded.

    I submit that a weak minded person could never become a Jedi. It takes much more skill and concentraition to wield a lightsaber effectivly than it does to pull a trigger.

    BTW, Emos us just trying to advance the "Palpy=Clone" theory. Pay him no mind.

    Emos? Advancing the clone theory in a thread that has nothing to do with it? Colour me shocked!

    :D
  9. Psychotic_Sith Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2004
    star 3
    When you clone something, it has the same of everything. It would have the same number of midichlorians it had before death. If the Force is generated by ALL living things, Anakin would still be part of the Force. If docile clones aren't part of the Force, then the Force couldn't be used to manipulate the Stormtroopers.

    They are part of the Force. True, they're going to be weak willed, but whatever. In theory, Palpatine could clone Anakin, say "Hey, I saved your life, blha blha blah", and Anakin would join him and obey him willingly, just for "saving his life". Thus, he'd get an apprentice with none of the weaknesses that would come from being confined to the suit.
  10. TheOzhaggis Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2000
    star 5
    When you clone something, it has the same of everything. It would have the same number of midichlorians it had before death.


    QUI-GON: Midi-chlorians are a microcopic lifeform that reside within all living cells and communicates with the Force.
    ANAKIN[b/]: They live inside of me?
    QUI-GON: In your cells. We are symbionts with the midi-chlorians.

    Midiclorians are a microscopic symbiotic lifeform that resides within living things - they are, essentially, bacteria - they are not endogenous structures derived from DNA.

    Symbiosis[/b: The relation between two different species of organisms that are interdependent; each gains benefits from the other.

    QUI-GON: A boy... his cells have the highest concentration of midi-chlorians I have seen in a life form. It is possible he was conceived by the midi-chlorians.

    Everything Qui-Gon says reflects an independent organism, not a sub-cellular structure.

    If midiclorians are derived genetically, then Anakin's high concentration of midiclorians is simply a genetic mutation.

    But, no. Midiclorians are independent organisms, and Anakin's high concentration of midiclorians reflects his affinity to the Force, rather than a mere chance genetic mutation.

    So, no, cloning a Force user would not result in a clone with an equal midiclorian count.

  11. TEXAS Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2002
    star 4
    You guys (JustinPeeler, TheOzhaggis & Psychotic_Sith) have had amazing original ideas and pretty entertaining arguments in the last few days, but could we please keep any kind of Clone activity out of this "neat little" THREAD ? thanx a bunch !!

    PS : This is november 2005, I'm sitting at home with my two childhood friends and a cool girl that i met a couple of days before. I had been cooking for my little possie, some good tex mex. See, tonight is a special night, we're about to watch all 6 episodes back to back on DVD for the first time. The third one STARWARS III: The creeping Mask just came out today on DVD, and we're finally going to live this anticipated moment, finally. Everyone is really excited, we open up a few cold Coronas, stick the lime in and then press play.

    TPM. Knowing each episode now, brings new light to this introduction. The slow scenes on Tatooine look so Starwars. Yes, they're kinda slow, but me and my friends are surprised on how many plot points are already foreshadowed here. Anakin is a kid, he's already fixing things, he's a good pilot, his mom looks like Mary in "The Passion of The Christ", Qui Gonn is well portrayed by Liam Neeson. Maul still looks cool on screen. and 6 years after the movie release, Jar Jar is still pretty credible as the annoying Gungan. Overall, we have a good time, the PodRace being the highlight of this first episode.
    Final celebration on Naboo, all the main characters were introduced and a few new (Watto, Maul) stole the show, end credits, let's have some enchiladas before the second episode.

    AotC. My new girlfriend whom I kissed for the first time during Qui Gonn's funeral in TPM, inserts the DVD of the second episode in my DVD player. We turn up the volume some. The first scenes on Coruscant are kind of bad, looks like the inside of Ikea, bad set (yellow and blue), bad acting, bad interaction between Jar Jar and OB1/Ani, and a bad hair day for Padmé, her hair looks like Chris Rock's. Sure the Speeder chase is fun, but I'm already ready for the Tatooine sequence. and it's not coming... more Coruscant, a little Naboo, some Kamino, a little Geonosis, the thing's officially messy now, Mister Burtt's editing is sponsored by Playstation 2, I hate video games, looks really fake too, couple of scenes make us laugh, like when Ani talks to Padmé on Naboo by the fire place, the scene seems forced. We pause, have more buritos and soft tacos, my ex girl friend (she got turned of by my burp) goes to the bathroom. My friend Tom presses play. Tatooine, Watto (cool !!), the Homestead, C3PO, Beru, Lars, Cliegg, the whole thing rocks, it gets better !! "Where are you going ?" Is Anakin going to answer ? "Well...looks like I'm going nowhere !!" no he doesn't but says "I'm going to find my mom" wait ! the s*** gets even better. Comes sout of the homestead, great use of shadows. Padmé hugs Ani, Ani's shadow looks just like Darth Vader... awesome !!and then... then "I won't be long" It'll still get better !! Ani disapears behind the Dune Sea [DUEL OF THE FATES] playing, jeez', the part rocks. Ani finds his mom, great performance there. slaughter. back to the homestead. The look on his face gives me shivers, he's like "you weren't there, I left her, and you weren't there for her, you let her down, we all did".
    then we got the dark side sequence with Ani confessing his sin to his future wife. Shmi's funeral. "I wasn't there for you mom, I failed again, but I promess you, I'll never fail again, I miss you ............................so...mUUUUUch."
    classic...
    the rest is ok, the first battle in the Clonewars is cool looking, the queso and the beans are cold now.

    TCM One of my friends went home. Everyone's tired, but we know there's a long night ahead of us. Jeez' I'm so excited, this is my second favorite episode.
    My friends love the openning scene more than I do, I love the space battle but it looks so perfect, so clean that it doesn't do it for me, or not as much as it does for my friends. Anakin looks awesome though, he's got his cool attitude, l
  12. Psychotic_Sith Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2004
    star 3
    So, no, cloning a Force user would not result in a clone with an equal midiclorian count.

    Who says? How do you know the midichlorians aren't creatures formed from the DNA in a cell, seperate from us but formed by us? And if they are foreign living beings, why wouldn't they enter a clone? The bacteria in our stomachs that help disolve food are found in every living thing, including the sheep that have been cloned.

    Again, if a StormTrooper can be felt through the Force or have the Force used on him {AKA Obi-wan using the Jedi Mind Trick on the Mos Eisley trooper} then they must have midichlorians.

    Also, if Midichlorians are simply bacteria that give you the Force, why do we never see Sith or Jedi shooting up with a bunch of midis to make them more powerful in the Force?

    Because it doesn't work that way. Midichlorians are simply like phones, they pick up the Force so you can hear it. The more you can hear the Force the better you'll probably be at using it, but just because you have less Midichlorians doesn't mean you'll be any less skilled in the Force, or won't be able to do some of the things a person with a higher midi count can do. Look at Dooku and Sidious; they both use Force lightning, but one of their midichlorian counts must be lower. Or Vader and Luke, who both do the Force choke, when Lukes midi count was probably lower.

    Many people say that midichlorians are simply mitochondria, since mitochondria are also symbiotic organisms, and I'd agree. Mitochondria are actually necessary for any kind of life to form, they are found in clones as well as birthed animals.

    So, AGAIN, if Anakin dies, why doesn't Palpatine just clone him from his nail or hair cells that live on after death {he has eyebrows in RotJ, so he still has hair} and make him more docile?

    Because he never died.
  13. TheOzhaggis Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2000
    star 5
    How do you know the midichlorians aren't creatures formed from the DNA in a cell, seperate from us but formed by us?

    three words: symbionts & microscopic lifeforms.

    A lifeform is an independent organism.

    Symbionts are two (or more) independent lifeforms living together for mutual benefit.

    If they were meant to be an endogenous structure, they wouldn't be microscopic lifeforms living in symbiosis ... just as mitochondria are not described as "microscopic lifeforms living in symbiosis with all living things."

    Mitochondria are an endogenous structure, midiclorians are a separate, independent, microscopic lifeform. There is no way around it.


    The bacteria in our stomachs that help disolve food are found in every living thing, including the sheep that have been cloned.

    But it's not produced by the sheep - it's environmental, not endogenous.


    If Midichlorians are simply bacteria that give you the Force, why do we never see Sith or Jedi shooting up with a bunch of midis to make them more powerful in the Force?

    Answering this as a serious question, it might not be possible. First, you're assuming it's possible to contain them, that it's possible to store them, but most importantly, that it's possible to force them to live in symbiosis. They are active lifeforms, not drugs.

    Many people say that midichlorians are simply mitochondria, since mitochondria are also symbiotic organisms, and I'd agree. Mitochondria are actually necessary for any kind of life to form, they are found in clones as well as birthed animals.

    Again, midiclorians are not mitochondria.
  14. Obi-Chron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2003
    star 4
    Midichlorians! I HATE MIDICHLORIANS!!!! :mad:

    I have a massive problem with how Shmi, who apparently has an average midi-count, can conceive a *male* child who's count is off the charts.

    This implies that midichlorians impart sexuality on top of enabling the force (Shmi only carries 'XX' chromosome pairs, thus she needs a male 'Y' chromosome to conceive Anakin).

    OK, OK, I know that in GL's SWU sex may not work 'exactly' the same as here on Earth! :confused: I think GL just 'invented' Midichlorians so that he didn't have rabid fans expecting Anakin's father to be revealed during EPIII -- more questions to answer in that regard perhaps than by conjuring up midichlorians and a vigin birth!
  15. TEXAS Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2002
    star 4
    I don't know if you've seen the Passion, but in a way, the relation ship between Shmi and Anakin in TPM reminded me of Mary's relation ship with Jesus. The scene with Ani fixing his Pod Racer is similar (only in terms of themes and cinematogrphy off course) to the one when we see a younger Jesus being a carpenter and making a table. The way Mary looks at him with pride and fear in the same time, reminded me of that shot (close up) of Shmi when she realizes that Ani was going to enter the Bounta Eve Pod Race. It is the look of a mother to her son, a mother who wants her child to be who he is supposed to but in the mean time, is worried and scared to lose him for ever. Watch TPM again, and you'll see that Anakin and Shmi's relation ship is beautifully portrayed, it's simple and moving in the same time. Shmi is the mother of the Chosen One. She knows she needs to let go, but in the mean time is aware of the great risks to just lose him for good. So now, honestly, I don't know about midichloreans, I don't think we'll hear about it again, EP3 will be focusing on Anakin's choices, his decisions, his path, on fear, anger, hate, suffering and the highway to hell, the downward spiral to the dark side, to the absolute power of the universe, the one of the Sith. EP3 to Anakin is like Gethsemane's garden to Jesus Christ... the moment of truth, passed that, there is no turning back.

    TEXAS
  16. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "Only the Force can decide who it will speak to"

    Despite the fact that it obviously can't choose who can use it, and for what purpose?

    Wouldn't such a Force simply prevent Palps from misusing it? Apparently not.

    Not to mention the fact that midis won't be addressed anymore.
  17. Emos-Edud Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2002
    star 4
    Lighten up, boys. I'm not promoting anything here. I was addressing Psychotic's suggestion that Sidious clone a docile version of Anakin. I proposed a reason why it might not be possible.

    Notice the part where I post right after Psychotic and then respond to his statements? That is the secret clue that I am talking to him.

    -----------------------
    OzHaggis,

    I praise your intellect and patience. I've beseeched several on these boards to learn a bit more about genetics and cellular structure, even going so far as to point out a couple good books on the subject, but no one wants to learn. So they end up using made-up definitions of real words to back their theories. Qui-Gon's statements about midichlorians contain a lot of information in real-world terms, not the usual sci-fi Trek technobabble. It is too bad that most people think that it is just sci-i texture to make things sound technical.

    Keep up the good fight on the "symbionts aren't organelles and thus aren't transferred in cloning" front. The American public education system really screws kids over. It expects nothing of young minds, spends too much time on useless review, and does not foster a desire for independant learning. And yes, this matters, even if we are only talking about a bunch of kids' movies, or as Lucas says "movies for young people."
  18. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    Yeah...you, like the PT, are just full of "secret clues", aren't you. :p
  19. Emos-Edud Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2002
    star 4
    Mebe,

    So kind of you to point out the joke for others. Or are you just trying to tell me you got it?
  20. The_Fireman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2001
    star 4
    Anakin won't die completely.

    Palpatine's last little ace-in-the-hole is that he has been using the dark side for a long, LONG time, to keep himself among the living. He'll reveal this to Anakin at some point, causing Anakin to think that much more about turning. After his defeat, floating in a pool of lava, he'll put it to use, prolonging his life until he's rescued. From then on out he never lets go, until He realizes there's someone he'd rather live than himself: Luke. He lets go, turns on Palpatine, and returns to the Light, ending his life that should have ended in the lava on Mustafar.
  21. Juke Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 27, 2004
    star 5
    Man, this thread is getting rough! If it gets any more
    hostile, Don King will be here trying to collect half
    of your paychecks. It's Debate not Degrade!
  22. Emos-Edud Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2002
    star 4
  23. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "So they end up using made-up definitions of real words to back their theories."

    Like these?

    "Dark Side bruising"
    "Force shell"
    "Symphonic use of the Force"

    Oh, and I got the "joke" a long time ago, when it became painfully clear that there were no such clues to write about...that would explain a great deal, wouldn't it? :)
  24. Emos-Edud Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2002
    star 4
    What are you talking about, Mebes?

    There is a huge difference to creating fake definitions to real words and coining new words to describe something that is either being hypothesized or has not yet been given a name.

    There are many such clues to have written about. That's what makes the joke so long in the telling.

    But I'm glad you were ablt to pick up on such an obvious joke. It goes right along with picking up on things that are spoon fed to you.
  25. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "There are many such clues to have written about. That's what makes the joke so long in the telling."

    Going on two years, no less. You must have had some very patient teachers at NYU. ;)

    "It goes right along with picking up on things that are spoon fed to you."

    But I thought it was the "secret clues" that led you to your hunch, and not simply this need to derive something "unique" from spoilers, in order to differentiate yourself from the thousands of other posters on these boards? ?[face_plain]

    Heaven forbid that that should be your sole driving force, since it makes you seem more like an attention-getter, rather than an intellectual. [face_mischief]
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