TRANSITION TO VADER: "The neat little thing"

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by TEXAS, Aug 27, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Emos-Edud Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2002
    star 4
    Why are you so off topic? I think your compulsion to debate me on this off-topic subject is yet another hilarious thread derailment provided by those who claim my beliefs are a problem. However, like in almost every example when analysed it becomes apparent that my theories are not the problem, but my detreactors' obsessive response to them is the problem. What do your repsonses have to do with my posts on this thread? Nothing. Let it go. You will have the appropriate venue to air your grievances when the time comes. (PS at NYU I had a real world incentive to finish projects on time. Are you going to offer me course credit if I hurry up?)

    Is it possible to go back to debating The Franky Theory without consulting a mod?

    PS- Attention getter or intellectual, it does not matter what you call me. As long as you continue to hound me, I have your attention and thus you become complicit in my scheme. Thank you.
  2. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "Are you going to offer me course credit if I hurry up?"

    You never started.

    "...my scheme. Thank you."

    I couldn't have said it any better. Thank you. :)
  3. JustinPeeler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2003
    star 4
    Emos Edud wrote: Why are you so off topic? I think your compulsion to debate me on this off-topic subject is yet another hilarious thread derailment provided by those who claim my beliefs are a problem.


    Your beliefs aren't the problem. You starting arguments over them in every thread you can is the problem. You denying that your believes have anything to do with the argument you just started is the problem.

    Case in point, this thread. Tex suggested that the scene in which Anakin becomes Vader would be a homage to James Whale's Frankenstein. You start arguing with him that you know for a fact that Lucas has something else in mind.

    Now, anyone who knows you and can read your sig knows you reject the Frankenstein theory because that would entail the viewers seeing that Anakin does indeed become Vader.

    In other threads you have said Lucas will use film noir techniques with shadows and music and while the fans will know what just happened , newbies won't, thus keeping Vader's ID a secret.

    But in this thread you haven't said that, so you say "I haven't said this in this thread", in an attempt to deny that's what you mean so you can accusse someone else of starting an argument over your believe. You try to take advantage of the fact that the JCF has thousands of members and thousands of posts, so most people don't know you and are unaware of what you've posted in the past. That's why you post here and not in smaller forums.

    Finally, when someone asks you point blank "Name another film from the 30s or 40s that Lucas could be referring to if not Frankenstien", and just like when asked about your infamous Essay you change the subject.

    That is the problem.

    ----------------------------------------------------

    Oz,

    "Without midiclorians life cannot exists, and we'd have no knowledge of the Force"-- Qui Gonn Jinn.

    So wether or not you can clone midis, clones have them from somewhere.
  4. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
  5. A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Riot Deterrent

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2003
    star 7
    Peeler is right.
    There are plenty of other films from that era that have their influence all over the plot for EpIII...

    Truth be told, the 'ressurection' scenario has far more of a link to Bride of Frankenstein than it does to the original, what with the body being fixed up out of neccesity, rather than desire for a creation.

    James Whale is the key, here...
  6. TheOzhaggis Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2000
    star 5
    "Only the Force can decide who it will speak to"
    Despite the fact that it obviously can't choose who can use it, and for what purpose?
    Wouldn't such a Force simply prevent Palps from misusing it? Apparently not.


    You're assuming that the Force doesn't want Palpatine to have power. You're assuming that the Force is a Personality that makes moral judgments about Good and Evil.

    In Nature there is no Good or Evil, only Nature. It may be bloody in tooth and claw, but it is not Evil. Likewise with the Force. Just as Good and Evil only exist in the mind, the Dark Side and the Light Side only exist in the mind. Nature does not make moral value judgments, and neither does the Force.

    Palpatine having power was necessary. The Jedi had become lofty and arrogant, and the Force had become unbalanced. It was all yang and no yin. This is the point of the PT.

    So why would the Force want to prevent Palpatine? He is helping to restore balance to the Force.


    QUI-GON: Without midiclorians life cannot exist, and we'd have no knowledge of the Force.

    And without oxygen, life cannot exist. Does that mean oxygen is hereditary? Is oxygen generated by DNA? Can oxygen be cloned?

    So wether or not you can clone midis, clones have them from somewhere.

    All life forms may have midiclorians, but not all life forms have high concentrations of midiclorians. Hence the midiclorian count. Otherwise, if all life forms have midiclorians, and having midiclorians makes you Force sensitive, then every living creature would be Force sensitive - including the Rancor, and Jabba, and the Jawas. (Are there any Jawa Jedi? Just curious...)

    If a sheep is infected with bacteria, and you clone that sheep - no matter how infected that cell is - you will not clone the bacteria. If the original sheep and the clone sheep come into contact, then it might physically transmit the bacteria, but it will not pass it along genetically, and there is no guarrantee that it will transmit the bacteria.


    For my money, the idea of midiclorians as independent microscopic organisms bestowing Force abilities on individuals at the will of the Force is much more satisfying. If the Force directs the midiclorians to converge on a host and thereby grant them Force abilities, then that is tantamount to them being Blessed, or Chosen, rather than being mere genetic mutants.


    Is the Chosen One chosen, or merely a genetic freak?


    After all, if it's just a matter of genetics, then Chosen Ones with Anakin's concentration of midiclorians would be popping up all over the place - unless the probability of it happening is so infinitesimally small that only One child in history is born with a concentration that goes through the roof ... and then we are talking either evolution, in which case there would be more and more Chosen Ones popping up, or a genetic mutation so freakish that the odds of it happening right here and now are so utterly improbable that they are virtually impossible ...

  7. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "You're assuming that the Force doesn't want Palpatine to have power."

    True, but then, Lucas has stated as much as well.

    "You're assuming that the Force is a Personality that makes moral judgments about Good and Evil."

    Incorrect. This is where my "apparently not" comes in. It is Emos who was making the moral judgement about who the Force decides to talk to. My contention is that anyone can hear the Force, if they choose to try. Either way, they can still use, or misuse, the Force.

    "So why would the Force want to prevent Palpatine? He is helping to restore balance to the Force."

    Uhm, no.

    "If the Force directs the midiclorians to converge on a host and thereby grant them Force abilities, then that is tantamount to them being Blessed, or Chosen, rather than being mere genetic mutants."

    Might that not be one of those "moral judgments" you were talking about? ?[face_plain]


    (Of course, that's the problem with the whole midi thing to begin with. It contradicts itself on many levels.)
  8. TheOzhaggis Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2000
    star 5

    "So why would the Force want to prevent Palpatine? He is helping to restore balance to the Force."

    Uhm, no.


    Maybe you could expand on that a little?

    I'd be more than happy to explain why he is... but perhaps this is getting a little tangential?


    "If the Force directs the midiclorians to converge on a host and thereby grant them Force abilities, then that is tantamount to them being Blessed, or Chosen, rather than being mere genetic mutants."

    Might that not be one of those "moral judgments" you were talking about?


    Not at all. Is it a moral judgment when Nature chooses one bee to be a worker and another to be a queen? The queen has been chosen above all others, but it is not a moral judgment signifying that she was more worthy of being Chosen than any other bee, for Nature has no personality to make a moral judgment, it simply chooses. Likewise, the Force is not a personality, and therefore cannot make moral judgments, it is merely striving to return balance, and does so by directing midiclorians.

    There is no more moral judgment in the Force's actions than there is in a thermal regulator's actions.

  9. JustinPeeler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2003
    star 4
    Oz,

    With all due respect, Lucas has said that by drawing on the negative side of the Force Palpatine is killing it. He says the Dark Side is like cancer, while the light is like symbosis.

    As a defense against Sidious, the Force through the midiclorians created Anakin to destroy the imbalance, which he does eventually.

    I'm paraphrasing, but that is the gist of it.
  10. TheOzhaggis Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2000
    star 5
    Well, I don't agree with that (big surprise), but if that's what he says, then so be it. It's a very western view, and not my cup of tea at all. I wouldn't think Lucas would subscribe to that idea, but mea culpa.

    Regardless, it does nothing to alter the facts about the midiclorians: they are independent microscopic organisms living in symbiosis with living things. They are not endogenous, and therefore cannot be cloned by cloning a living thing. The living thing that results from the cloning may indeed have midiclorians, but they are not produced by the cloning process.

    They cannot be endogenous, for the very simple and inarguable reason that you cannot have a symbiotic relationship with yourself.

    (I suppose you can if you're a clone, or Jango, but that's another story...)

  11. TEXAS Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2002
    star 4
    Han's comments on the Force in ANH are those of a sceptical talking about Religion, Faith and Holy Spirit. The Midichloreans can conceive a human being therefore are closer to spirituality than they are to Science. Qui Gonn's way of explainning the Force to a nine years old kid in TPM is slightly different than OB1 and Han's convo on the Millenium Falcon. If you blend the concepts of TPM with those of ANH, you come up with something like that... (I need your help on that one, I'll write the first one)

    FACTS ABOUT THE FORCE

    1 - The Force surrounds us, it's a living power which lives in trees, rocks, everywhere, at all times.

    Keep on going...


    EDIT: I really don't think it is that off topic, considering the fact that the Immaculated conception, the Midichloreans, the "Franky Theory" are the core of EP3, and therefore the PT's substance...
  12. Psychotic_Sith Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2004
    star 3
    LOL. I think you're starting to assume the Franky Theory IS what will be in Episode III.


    The Franky Theory has nothing to do with the PT or Episode III, until Episode III is released, and we know for a fact. Until then, please don't state your theory as a fact, please.

    Thank you! :)
  13. JustinPeeler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2003
    star 4
    Some of you are missing a very important part of why Palpatine would go through the trouble of ressurecting Anakin as oppossed to just cloning a few cells: It would take ten years for Anakin's clone to grow!

    With Dooku dead and the Jedi on the run, Sidious can't wait ten years for a fully armed and operational apprentice! Plus Anakin's hatred at the "unjustness" of his physicaly deterioration fuels the Dark Side burning within him, making him that much more powerful.

    That is why he ressurects him.

    As far as his physical abilities, all the physically impressive Jedi die before his accident, save for Yoda and Obi Wan, so there is no concern with the fact that he can't summersault through the air like Maul. Anyone he fights in between III and IV won't be a match for him, given his strength in the Force.

    Plus having a platoon of clonetroopers as your back up always help, even if they can't shoot straight.

    :D
  14. TheOzhaggis Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2000
    star 5
    Not to forget the simple fact that resurrection is a foundation of mythology, as it represents the rebirth stage of the cycle of nature.

    With his resurrection, he has become part of the natural cycle: he is born miraculously (reflecting the miracle of birth itself), dies painfully (reflecting our fear of death), and is reborn (our ultimate wish).

    This also reflects the lunar / solar cycle: the sun and moon are born (rise) and die (set) each day, only to be reborn the next day ... as is the cycle of nature.

    Resurrected heroes include: Hercules, Adonis, Dionysus, Attis, Hyacinth (Greek/Roman), Telepinu (Hittite), Buddha, Osiris, Kutoyis, Bear Man (Cherokee Indian), Wanjiru (African), Quetzalcoatl (Aztec), etc?

    Star Wars has ooodles of resurrections / rebirths - which is probably why Darth Maul fans swear he will return ?

  15. TEXAS Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2002
    star 4
    "With Dooku dead and the Jedi on the run, Sidious can't wait ten years for a fully armed and operational apprentice! Plus Anakin's hatred at the "unjustness" of his physicaly deterioration fuels the Dark Side burning within him, making him that much more powerful. That is why he ressurects him."

    I like that Peeler, really do.

    EDIT:"Resurrected heroes include: Hercules, Adonis, Dionysus, Attis, Hyacinth (Greek/Roman), Telepinu (Hittite), Buddha, Osiris, Kutoyis, Bear Man (Cherokee Indian), Wanjiru (African), Quetzalcoatl (Aztec), etc? "

    Anakin is more like the Phoenix, burnning in flames (lava) and then being reborned from the ashes as a new being (Darth Vader), a sort of baptism through fire and hell rather than water and spirit.
    Kinda ironic to think that he burns in flames a second time (RotJ - the funeral on Endor) -- (the Phoenix is known to do it several times) -- to be resurrected again as a new being (Jedi Ghost)
  16. TheOzhaggis Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2000
    star 5

    Well, you are right in the sense that the phoenix is the ultimate symbol of resurrection - but not right in so far as Anakin isn't burnt to ashes; also, the phoenix burns itself to ashes, which Anakin does not, on either occassion.
  17. Psychotic_Sith Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2004
    star 3
    Some of you are missing a very important part of why Palpatine would go through the trouble of ressurecting Anakin as oppossed to just cloning a few cells: It would take ten years for Anakin's clone to grow!

    With Dooku dead and the Jedi on the run, Sidious can't wait ten years for a fully armed and operational apprentice! Plus Anakin's hatred at the "unjustness" of his physicaly deterioration fuels the Dark Side burning within him, making him that much more powerful.


    He doesn't even NEED an apprentice by the time of the Duel. He's in complete control of the Republic; an apprentice would become a liability. Unless there's some rule about a Sith Lord HAVING to have an apprentice, I would think it best to wait a while and grow a clone so he could be completely subserviant to me. You forget, the Sith by instinct will kill the Lord when they are powerful enough and take his place, and Palpidious knows this.

    You forget, that if Anakin really dies in Episode III, there's really no reason to raise him from the dead OR clone him. Palpatine now has millions of Stormtroopers at his disposal, and they shall prove disturbingly effective against the Jedi as it is.


    As far as his physical abilities, all the physically impressive Jedi die before his accident, save for Yoda and Obi Wan, so there is no concern with the fact that he can't summersault through the air like Maul. Anyone he fights in between III and IV won't be a match for him, given his strength in the Force.

    Who says? It's almost a certainty more than Yoda and Obi-wan make it out of Episode III alive; and if these Jedi are like any other Jedi in the PT, I'm sure they can flip, summersault, etc.
    Vader would be at an extreme disadvantage fighting these Jedi in his slow, bulky suit.

    Also, just wondering, if Palpatine can resurrect his apprentices, why not simply resurrect Maul from the dead? It could be because he is already grooming Dooku, but there is nothing to indicate Dooku was already a Sith until a while after TPM. Also, there are several {admittedly EU, but better than nothing} references to Dooku not joining up with Palpatine until a few years after TPM.

    So why not just raise Maul from the dead and have him keep on keeping?
  18. Darth_Meul Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2004
    star 3
    So why not just raise Maul from the dead and have him keep on keeping?

    Maul wasn't worthy, after being split in two by a padawan :cool:.
  19. AceVader Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2003
    star 2
    Anybody else find it interesting that the OS has that McQaurrie-ish Vader on their main page? Are they teasing us about how its going to look for E3?


    Sorry if this is the wrong thread, didnt want to start a new one.
  20. TEXAS Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2002
    star 4
    I know right ?
    This looks like Hayden in the suit, Lucas is such a teaser man...
    tx
    ;)
  21. AceVader Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2003
    star 2
    Texas-

    No, not what I mean. My reasoning is that there have been so many threads here lately about "OOOHHH first E3 Vader image!!" and we get all excited. I KNOW that LFL employees read these forums, and I just wonder if the image was put there on purpouse to mess with our heads a little, thats all.

    They've done similar things before on ocassion.
  22. JustinPeeler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2003
    star 4
    He doesn't even NEED an apprentice by the time of the Duel. He's in complete control of the Republic; an apprentice would become a liability. Unless there's some rule about a Sith Lord HAVING to have an apprentice, I would think it best to wait a while and grow a clone so he could be completely subserviant to me. You forget, the Sith by instinct will kill the Lord when they are powerful enough and take his place, and Palpidious knows this.

    Yes, but why expose himself to danger if he doesn't need to? Remember, he only exposed himself to danger in the OT to trap Luke. Otherwise he had Vader do all the grunt work.

    It's a power thing. Palpatine likes having a strong apprentice to do his bidding, and if they get too powerful, powerful enough to challenge him, he has them killed by their replacement.

    You forget, that if Anakin really dies in Episode III, there's really no reason to raise him from the dead OR clone him. Palpatine now has millions of Stormtroopers at his disposal, and they shall prove disturbingly effective against the Jedi as it is.

    See above. It's a power trip, pure and simple. He get's off on the notion of the most powerful Jedi ever being his bitch.

    Keep in mind as well, Anakin has both Jedi and Sith traning, making him unique after Dooku is killed.

    Who says? It's almost a certainty more than Yoda and Obi-wan make it out of Episode III alive; and if these Jedi are like any other Jedi in the PT, I'm sure they can flip, summersault, etc.
    Vader would be at an extreme disadvantage fighting these Jedi in his slow, bulky suit.


    Who need acrobatics when you can Force Choak someone? Or have 30 stormtroopers shootng at them as you cut them to peices?

    Also, even with his suit Vader pulled off a few jumps of his own.

    Also, just wondering, if Palpatine can resurrect his apprentices, why not simply resurrect Maul from the dead? It could be because he is already grooming Dooku, but there is nothing to indicate Dooku was already a Sith until a while after TPM. Also, there are several {admittedly EU, but better than nothing} references to Dooku not joining up with Palpatine until a few years after TPM.

    So why not just raise Maul from the dead and have him keep on keeping?


    Because Maul was cut in half.

    Anakin might be limbless and burnt to a crisp, but enough of him survives to be ressurrected.

    Maul got cut in two, his stomach and intestines where destroyed, and that was before he fell into a bottomless pit and ended up like a rabbit on the freeway.

    At least Anakin was an intact torso, even if his lungs don't work anymore.
  23. DarthVegas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2000
    star 4
  24. TEXAS Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2002
    star 4
    "Maul got cut in two, his stomach and intestines where destroyed, and that was before he fell into a bottomless pit and ended up like a rabbit on the freeway."

    Well, except that Starwars is a "PG13" kinda far far away galaxy where blood and intestines don't exist...
    So convenient that light sabers cuterize wounds instantly right !!?
  25. Darth_Stern Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 15, 2003
    star 2
    Darth Critters thread about golems I believe hits on the question of the "neat little thing" quite nicely and may provide the answer.
    Its a great theory and an interesting read.


Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.