TRANSITION TO VADER: "The neat little thing"

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by TEXAS, Aug 27, 2002.

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  1. MatthewZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2003
    star 4
    Smackfu,
    You are assuming the Sith know of the prophecy.
  2. smackfu Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 2
    No, I'm not assuming that. Obviously the Sith would have discovered on their own long ago that a master dying kills his apprentice. It would be kind of hard not to notice. I think it's pretty unlikely that over the course of thousands of years, not one Sith master would have died. And like I said, if the master killing the apprentice thing were true, that would mean that there has only been one Sith master, Palpatine, for thousands of years, rather than an "Apprentice kills master and becomes master himself then takes on his own apprentice and it starts all over again" dynamic.
  3. ScoobyDooku Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    star 3
    Smackfu....I have seen the entire dvd of Return of the jedi . The Hayden scene...It is not fake. It is exactly what youve seen. If it is fake, then someone faked about a hundred other minor, almost unoticeable changes to the movie, including the Naboo ending, cleaning up the Rancor, and baically giving us a better image than Lucas ever has.
    Are you crazy?
  4. ScoobyDooku Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    star 3
    I thought it was accepted and widely known that Anakin does die. I thought he dies, Palpatine is pissed, uses an ancient Sith ritual to resurrect him, and thats how his face becomes all disfigured.
    Is there a different belief than this out there?
    I thought this whole resurrection/rebirth was Luas "neat little thing" reminiscent of an old film of the 40s that Lucas has widely talked about.
    Like Frankenstein...its alive! Hes alive!
    I mean have i missed something that leads us to believe this isnt exactly what happens, as even the screen caps of the rising of vader seem to hold with this info?
  5. ScoobyDooku Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    star 3
    Oh and one more thing... If the dvd I have is fake, howd they fake the commentary?
  6. ogilbyb Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2003
    star 4
    GL would not have Anakin physically die and be ressurected by The Emperor. Yes Anakin dies, he figurativly dies, the personalities replaced with Vader. Its only popular with those with nothing better to do but post crazy theories like Palps is a clone, Maces a traitor and Maul is Grievous that Anakin physically dies and is ressurected by Palpatine. The realistic and plausible idea though is that Anakin Skywalker is killed in personality.
  7. BothofUs Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2003
    star 4
    He dies as Anakin and becomes Vader. Anakin never dies though.

    The whole thing is that Palpatine might help him to stop from dying. Not resurrection.

    This isn't the Bible and it isn't meant to be played out like that.
  8. ogilbyb Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2003
    star 4
  9. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
    This isn't the Bible and it isn't meant to be played out like that.

    I disagree. Anakin's birth is the Immaculate Conception. Anakin dies violently and is resurrected in a new form. Am I missing something? All Bible versions include this.
  10. BothofUs Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2003
    star 4
    I disagree. Anakin's birth is the Immaculate Conception. Anakin dies violently and is resurrected in a new form. Am I missing something? All Bible versions include this.


    I agree, but I don't think Lucas is trying to do a remake here.

    He has his own story to tell and he's not following every aspect of Jesus' life in Anakin's. There are many important aspects of Jesus' life that don't make sense in Anakin's.

    Am I missing something? Why am I the only one that thinks that Anakin dying isn't going to happen?
  11. ogilbyb Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2003
    star 4
    It depends on whether you mean his soul or his body dying. Anakins soul dies replaced by Vader but his body does not so if you mean his body does not die I agree with you.
  12. racerx Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2002
    star 2
    Smackfu....I have seen the entire dvd of Return of the jedi . The Hayden scene...It is not fake. It is exactly what youve seen. If it is fake, then someone faked about a hundred other minor, almost unoticeable changes to the movie, including the Naboo ending, cleaning up the Rancor, and baically giving us a better image than Lucas ever has.
    Are you crazy?


    This is just wrong on so many levels (not your post, the changes). There is a fundemental disconnect now in the plot.

    Anakin falls and is redeemed, right? By returning to his "young" ghost, what is the message? That he wasn't resposible for the reign of terror as Vader? After 20-odd years, he finally makes the right decision to return to the light as an old man. He should come back as an old man, as Kenobi does.

    As an "old" ghost, it's clear that Anakin became Vader, realized the error of his ways, and in the end, came back to the Light Side.

    What we have now is a completely seperate entity as Vader. Why? Instead of the noble warrior seduced by power and coruption, we have a noble warrior trapped in some sort of shell, through some sort of inescapable circumstances. The fundamental changes to the story simply don't make sense, if this is all true.

    The Frankenstein proponents make it sound as though Vader is a shambling construct totally seperate from Anakin, thus the young ghost. If Vader truly has THIS much disconnect from Anakin, I fail to grasp why they are based on the same character, at all.

    In other words, the old OS version of events is bunk.

    Skywalker was seduced by the dark side of the Force. Fueled by rage and discontent with the pace of Obi-Wan's training, Anakin challenged his master to a duel. Despite newfound power bestowed by the dark side of the Force, which added to his already formidable abilities, Anakin was grievously wounded in the fight. His burning anger kept him alive, and he was forever scarred not only by his wounds but also by betrayal. He abandoned his former identity. When metal coupled with flesh in the form of cyborg implants and enhancements required to sustain him, Skywalker's transformation was complete. He was no longer Anakin. He was Darth Vader.

    Now, Anakin dies and is "reanimated" as Darth Vader, a mostly seperate Dark Side fueled automaton. When that construct "dies" good old young Ani is back.

    Not neat. Bad, bad, bad.
  13. The_Mole Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2004
    star 2
    I do not believe Anakin "dies" as in his heart stops beating.

    ROTJ Novelization: Ben to Luke, "We fought, your father fell into a molten pit. When your father crawled out of that fiery pool, the change had been burned into him forever- he was Darth Vader, without a trace of Anakin Skywalker...etc

    I believe this is how it will play in ROTS.
  14. Darth_MaulRat35 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 16, 2003
    star 3
    This is terrible. I'm sorry, but Star Wars is still a kid's story. The resurrection bit would not play well to that audience, I don't think.

    Anakin will be seduced by the power of the dark side. He won't be killed, only to be pieced together like a pile of Watto's junk. Anakin, in body and spirit, survives the lava plunge, and chooses the DarkSide. He gives up on Anakin (too painful) and chooses to be Vader.

    There are many of us that don't buy this resurrection nonsense. There are also many of us that still believe that Darth Vader is more than a black suit and SCUBA tank. Darth Vader is a bad dude that does bad things (slaughter at the Temple?) long before his body is damaged. The suit is just clothes and machinery.

    I would be seriously disappointed if it is stated that Anakin was dead, only to have Sidious-stein rebuild him. In addition, I have seen this end footage from the ROTJ DVD, and real or not, I don't like it. I thought I would, but now that I've seen it, it doesn't work. If Anakin did die, he could not be redeemed. He could be resurrected AGAIN, but how, when, and by whom? So he felt "good" again, and saved his son? If the good man truly died, then how could the bad man ever have any good in him, any conflicted feelings? It's just not possible or plausible.

    Sorry if this is an incoherent rant, I will reread and edit as needed.
  15. dr_funkenstein Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2002
    star 4
    This is terrible. I'm sorry, but Star Wars is still a kid's story.

    Huh? Never was, my friend!

    Anakin will be seduced by the power of the dark side. He won't be killed, only to be pieced together like a pile of Watto's junk. Anakin, in body and spirit, survives the lava plunge, and chooses the DarkSide. He gives up on Anakin (too painful) and chooses to be Vader.

    Well, I think there's room for a physical death, but it's not necessary for the story to work. As for him "choosing" to be Vader? Well, he can choose the dark side, and he can choose Sidious as his new master, but Sidious as the Sith master must choose his apprentice. Sidious is the one doing the choosing when it comes to who gets to be the next Sith Lord. Sidious names him Darth Vader. Yes, he is evil long before he gets the name though.

    There are many of us that don't buy this resurrection nonsense. There are also many of us that still believe that Darth Vader is more than a black suit and SCUBA tank. Darth Vader is a bad dude that does bad things (slaughter at the Temple?) long before his body is damaged. The suit is just clothes and machinery.

    Yes, as above, Anakin is an evil person long before the suit. However I think that Sidious will only grant Sith Lord status to Anakin after the duel, and in the suit. I think that only after he's in the suit will Sidious do the Sith naming ceremony.

    I would be seriously disappointed if it is stated that Anakin was dead, only to have Sidious-stein rebuild him. In addition, I have seen this end footage from the ROTJ DVD, and real or not, I don't like it. I thought I would, but now that I've seen it, it doesn't work. If Anakin did die, he could not be redeemed. He could be resurrected AGAIN, but how, when, and by whom? So he felt "good" again, and saved his son? If the good man truly died, then how could the bad man ever have any good in him, any conflicted feelings? It's just not possible or plausible.

    I don't think Anakin dying would ruin the story, but at the same time it's not necessary. If it pans out that way, I won't mind. However, having Hayden show up as the RotJ ghost is absolute nonsense, I agree.
  16. smackfu Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 2
    Smackfu....I have seen the entire dvd of Return of the jedi . The Hayden scene...It is not fake. It is exactly what youve seen. If it is fake, then someone faked about a hundred other minor, almost unoticeable changes to the movie, including the Naboo ending, cleaning up the Rancor, and baically giving us a better image than Lucas ever has.
    Are you crazy?


    Well, I don't want to say that I don't believe you, but...well...I guess I don't believe you. No offense to you personally, but if I had a dime for every fan who claimed to be privy to inside information, advanced screenings, etc I'd be a rich, rich man. So I tend to take what posters say with a 1kg bag of salt. If that shot of Hayden is real, then the boys at Lucasfilm are either losing their touch or were in a pretty big hurry, because it's pretty sloppy looking.
  17. Darth_MaulRat35 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 16, 2003
    star 3
    GL has said many times that this saga is for kids. He said it in the 70's and 80's, and again with the PT. My guess is that he knows what goes on on boards like this, and believes that the fans overthink too much of this.

    Physical death doesn't sit well with me.

    Lastly, about the sith christening or whatever, I have always liked the idea of Anakin living a dual life. He is Darth Vader, and the jedi have heard of this new apprentice, but do not know that it is actually Anakin. He attacks the temple cloaked and dressed in black, so that those in the temple do not know initially who this "Vader" is. Only when ObiWan and Yoda see the security footage do they realize that Anakin is Vader, and that their ability to use the Force to see things is completely gone.

    Another scenario I had in my head was that only Yoda saw the footage, while ObiWan was dispatched to find this "Vader" and confront him. On Mustafaar, ObiWan squares up with this cloaked, dark enemy, only to have him remove the cloak and reveal his true identity - Anakin Skywalker.

    A scene mirroring the hanger on Endor in ROTJ fits nicely here...

    Obi: ANAKIN?!?
    Vader: That name no longer has any meaning to me.
    Obi: It is the name of your true self, you've only forgotten.

    Naturally, it would be silly to have the exact same dialogue, but you get the picture.

    But all this is moot, if GL just decides to kill Anakin's butt, and put a zombie in the coolest suit around. Maybe Vader's only line in the movie will be "More brains..." (from Night of the Living Dead II).
  18. ScoobyDooku Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    star 3
    Smackfu...
    The Return of the Jedi dvd rip is hardly priveleged information.
    In fact, there's a guide of how to get it at millenniumfalcon.com under Forums, Classic Trilogy, there's a step by step for dummies...*ahem* on how to download it.
    It is assumed that you already own the film, and are only downloading it to have a backup copy on your computer of course.


    After you spend the whole night downloading it, I'm sure you'll believe me. I dont just "say" things. Im not thirteen. I would think I had a reputation on these boards by now.

    Oh and by the way... how is Vader now a zombie?
    He's RESURRECTED.
    Or at least thats what all signs point to.
    There's even forshadowing of this with Anakin's talk in Ep. 2 about "being able to keep people from dying".
    I know, I know "keeping people from dying" is different than resurrection.
    But why is everyone so angry with this?
    Just cause he was resurrected doesnt mean hes not Anakin anymore.
    But what was keeping him alive was some nifty mechanical things, and the dark side of the force.
    So of course when hes granted ghost status,( which we'll find out how its specifically done in Ep. 3) the midichlorians will remember the side that died before all that.
    Or something.
  19. dr_funkenstein Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2002
    star 4
    Well, I don't want to say that I don't believe you, but...well...I guess I don't believe you. No offense to you personally, but if I had a dime for every fan who claimed to be privy to inside information, advanced screenings, etc I'd be a rich, rich man. So I tend to take what posters say with a 1kg bag of salt. If that shot of Hayden is real, then the boys at Lucasfilm are either losing their touch or were in a pretty big hurry, because it's pretty sloppy looking.

    dr_funkenstein once thought as you do. Then he downloaded the ripped DVD.

    I agree it looks shyte, but alas, it's the truth.
  20. smackfu Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 2
    Sadness.

    Thanks for the confirmation though...

    So did they replace the unmasked Vader with an aged Hayden, or just the ghost? I just can't buy that in roughly 25 years Anakin goes from looking like Hayden to looking like an overweight old british man with giant old-man eyebrows.
  21. racerx Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2002
    star 2
    Why have Anakin come back as Hayden?! It just doesn't make sense.

    Either Anakin returns to the light as old Anakin, or he doesn't. If he returns as old Anakin, the ghost should be old Anakin.

    It's just that this young ghost implies that the last time Anakin was in touch with the Light side was before his turn to Vader. Clearly, Luke saw the spark of good, post-Vader, and turned him back to the Light, despite the Emperor's (not to mention Yoda's and Kenobi's) warnings that trying to do so was futile.

    It implies that evil Vader chucked Palps, and not the good Anakin.
  22. DarthListerine Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2004
    star 1
    (chuckling)
    [in robotic voice]

    I'm trying to imagine what enterity must be like now for Obi1 and Yoda. Before they were set to chill out in the afterlife of the Force with Sebastian Shaw. Now they have to hang out with Hayden Ghost forever.

    I wonder if the Hayden ghost still has the robotic hand?

    In keeping with the original title of this post, the "neat little thing" in reference to Frankenstein I believe to simply be the animation of the Vader-monster. And yeah, he supposedly tears the room apart with the Force and all that. Sure. I get that. And there's a certain shock value for non-spoiler hounds to not even see it coming...

    seriously... I don't think many of us expected to see Anakin DIE in this one. We took Obi1's words at face value "from a certain point of view." It turns out that Obi1 told the truth to Luke about Anakin dying from the get-go. Perhaps he oversimplified it because talking to Luke as a Force ghost is expensive or something, like an overseas phone call, LOL.

    As far as the discussion here focused on the DVD changes are concerned... see it for yourself. It doesn't take much digging to find proof over at ol' MF.com. The Naboo scene is certainly of unquestionable quality. All the jokes about putting Jar-Jar into the OT were true, "from a certain point of view." I'm hoping to freeze frame this one myself, to point out the old-man Jar-Jar.

    I can't remember who said it on this thread, but they said it right: Georgie was a rat to not tell us about these DVD changes, because he knew they'd think it was lame. Guess what, his insides serve him well.
  23. ScoobyDooku Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    star 3
    Shaw is still there in the unmasking.
    Though his "old man eyebrows" are not there.
    In fact this is some of the most astonishing effects Ive seen, that they can just erase eyebrows off a face and it looks flawless.
    Theyve also sligtly ever so much scarred him a little more.
    The gungans are there in Naboo, up on the roof shouting "we're free! We're free!"
    I wish they would have updated Boba's rocket pack.
    I also wish ( I may be alone in this ) they would have shown Boba blasting out of the Sarlacc. He's a bigger character now, and seeing him as a little boy makes the Sarlacc eating him way more cold blooded than Han shooting Greedo.
    Make it a similair action beat to AOTC, when they cut back to boba holding his dads helmet. The skiff is escaping, and then show Boba blasting out of the Sarlacc's mouth.
  24. dr_funkenstein Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2002
    star 4
    So did they replace the unmasked Vader with an aged Hayden, or just the ghost?

    Just the ghost. Unmasked Vader is still Sebastian Shaw.
  25. DarthListerine Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2004
    star 1
    "[they should have] shown Boba blasting out of the Sarlacc."

    [in robotic voice]

    flame this if you must, but I'm certain I read months ago at TF.N that LFL has extended all it's contracts with their employees to begin work on a BOBA FETT tv series well after Ep.III comes out (2007-8?) and the premise of the series (Set after ROTJ) is that Boba didn't get killed inside the Sarlacc because of his armor.

    Isn't this concept already alive in the extended U? Anyway, that bit about wanting to see Boba Fett blasting out of the Sarlacc?

    Be careful what you wish for! :)

    PS. that eyebrow thing is NUTS! can't wait to check that out.
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