TRANSITION TO VADER: "The neat little thing"

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by TEXAS, Aug 27, 2002.

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  1. Vezner Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 29, 2001
    star 5
    I still don't think Anakin physically dies. Just the humanity of Anakin dies. If Anakin had died completely and Vader was just a collection of pieces brought to life, then he would show no compassion for Luke at the end of ROTJ and wouldn't have saved him. Also, spoilers have said that after the operation, Vader asks what happened to Padme and the child(ren). If this was a completely new being, he wouldn't have asked this and then shown sorrow and regret through "anguished screams." Anakin=Vader

    I tend to agree with this theory.
  2. EwokThatCried Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2003
    star 4
    Wow, where did you dig up this old fossil? o_O
  3. TEXAS Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2002
    star 4
    "I still don't think Anakin physically dies. Just the humanity of Anakin dies. If Anakin had died completely and Vader was just a collection of pieces brought to life, then he would show no compassion for Luke at the end of ROTJ and wouldn't have saved him. Also, spoilers have said that after the operation, Vader asks what happened to Padme and the child(ren). If this was a completely new being, he wouldn't have asked this and then shown sorrow and regret through "anguished screams." Anakin=Vader "

    Well, I believe that Anakin, (the Jedi knight, the being of light) will die prior to the duel to become Vader, (the Sith Lord, Sidious' slave and creature of Darkness) and that his physical strenght will be lost in the volcano to be replaced by cybernetic mechanical body parts (à la Frankenstein), and to be resurrected by Sidious' Sith methods. Vader is a sick combination of that. there is still a little bit of humaness in him, somewhere barried deep down inside, hiden under the layers of metal and steel. Luke will have the Jedi ability and the faith to see through the armor right to the cold heart of the fallen angel...
  4. darth_sky_skywalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 26, 2005
    star 2
    wtf, all lucas said was the scene that vader is born in is a neat little thing remeniscent of the 30's 40's serials and because these movies are serials that fits perfectly. if the fans had no idea what was going 2 happen in this movie it would b one of the greatest twists, character turns ever, because everyone knows the titanic is sinking it has lost a little bit of its surprise hasnt it. in 20 odd yrs when a new generation sit down to watch them they will b awestruck at anakins turn and eventual fate, vader will knock their socks off. i think the scene will b awesome as it will fit the overall aim of these films like a glove.
  5. TEXAS Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2002
    star 4
    I'm tired of the PT bashing so here we go...

    The few "PT" moments which are so "OT"
    -1O- AOTC In the arena on Geonosis, right after Anakin goes "well we decided to come and rescue you" OB1, attached to the pillar, replies "Good job" (sounds like Han Solo)
    -9- AOTC Darth Sidious to darth tyrannus "Everythings is going as planned" (Emperor in ROTJ "Everything is going as I had forseed"
    -8- TPM QGJ to young Anakin before the Podrace "Trust your feelings and may the force be with you" (sounds like Luke in the DS trenches at the end of ANH)
    -7- AOTC Dooku "Join me OB1 and together we'll destroy the Sith" (reminiscent of Vader talking to Luke on Bespin in ESB "Join me and together we shall rule the Galaxy as father and son")
    -6- TPM Young Anakin to Padmé "Are you an angel?" (same introduction scene as Leia to Luke in ANH "aren't you too short to be a stormtrooper?")
    -5- TPM Sidious to Maul on Corucant "They will be no match for you" (Sounds just like the Emperor in ROTJ)
    -4- AOTC Anakin and OB1 in the sports bar on Coruscant (Cantina on tatooine)
    -3- AOTC Anakin finds his destiny when Shmi dies in his arms on tatooine (the same way Luke found his when Owen and Berru Lars died in ANH)
    -2- TPM OB1 screaming when QGJ dies (like Luke when OB1 dies in ANH)
    -BEST MOMENT the PT at its best- Yoda to Mace in the Jedi meditation room " Skywalker is in pain... terrible paiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnn..."

    What are your moments guys?
  6. TEXAS Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2002
    star 4
    I believe this is almost the end of a two year adventure (could be one of the longest thread ever, probably not but still...) so I thought I'd post to say thanks to all the ones who decided to stop by and share a little something about this "NEAT LITTLE THING".

    So to everyone, MERCI BEAUCOUP, it had been fun, hope to see you in line this coming may, who knows?

  7. TEXAS Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2002
    star 4
    Article taken from LUCASFILM MAGAZINE, from an interview of Roger Guyett (the matte painting coordinator on RotS) by Ron Magrid
    - translated from french -

    "During the transformation scene, various droid rebuild the burned body of Anakin giving it the feel of those horror movies from the 30's.
    Anakin slowly transform into his evil alter ego: Darth Vader.

    The title of this thread was
    TRANSITION TO VADER: "The neat little thing"

    WE WERE RIGHT ALL ALONG

    Our entire theory on GL being inspired by old horror movies from the 30's like Frankeinsten, the Mommy or Dracula was right on.

    Thank you for those two years of fun and speculation, I'll miss this thread. thanks to the mods for letting this happen.

    Enjoy the experience in 3 and a half weeks.

    TEXAS.
  8. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    Moving up to save. Please don't post here.
  9. Darkwish Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2001
    star 4
    Now we know it was Frankenstien and the transformation was very well done except for Vader's embarassing Franken-walk and the cringe inducing "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO". Almost ruined the scene.
  10. JohnWesleyDowney Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2004
    star 5
    Now we know it was Frankenstien and the transformation was very well done except for Vader's embarassing Franken-walk and the cringe inducing "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO". Almost ruined the scene.

    That NOOOOOOO was great. Lucas got the scene exactly right.
    It's just very fashionable to criticize it because people have
    to be oh so cool.

    Uh, if you just had the kind of surgery Anakin had, you might
    have a little trouble walking, don't ya think?

    Vader is supposed to be pathetic.

    Why is it when LUKE pathetically screams Nooooooo! in the ESB it's just peachy
    keen with everyone, but when Vader does it, it's "cringe-inducing."
    It was the perfect choice and Lucas was demonstrating how tragic and
    pathetic Anakin became as Vader. He's not the big tough monster,
    he's a broken-hearted monster in a self-made prison.
  11. orn-free-tada Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2001
    star 6
    I personally loved the frankenstien walk
  12. Leias_love_slave Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2003
    star 5
    It makes perfect sense to me that Vader's first steps on his new artificial legs would be awkward.
  13. Alexander_DeLarge Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2005
    star 1
    No, it wasn't. However, passing off the Star Wars community's obiquitous distaste with the scene as a "fashion" issue IS great because it's so damn funny. [face_laugh]


    That's only if you buy into the new revisionist viewpoint of Lucas. If you could go back in time and tell George Vader was "pathetic", you'd probably get B-slapped and tossed out of the building.


    The reason it was accepted and Vader's wasn't is simple: It was great acting by Hamill (sound, facial expressions) and perfect cinematography by Kirshner. On the contrary, the sound of Vader's Nooo was bad enough in it's own right, but when George pulled the cardinal sin of "panning" back during the scenes zenith, that sent it into the 5th dimension of low quality.

    BTW, kudos Downey on guessing my usernames origin correctly.
  14. Darkwish Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2001
    star 4
    Yeah, it was pretty bad. I remember sitting in the theater when the movie first opened. As that scene unfolded I felt a wave of excitement at first. It was done so well except for the very end. As Vader lamely walked from the platform and yelled "NOOOOO", my heart sank and I could actually feel my face turning red from embarassment. And then to hear giggles coming from the audience was just the icing on the cake. That moment isn't something you want an audience to laugh at.
  15. TCG Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2005
    star 2
    people are trying to be cool by criticizing that scene? really? so youre saying its out of the realm of possibility that the critiques of that scene might be accurate?

    as alex said above, and its not only the acting, its the way GL directed the scene. he told hayden to throw his hands up and his head back. c'mon, its just too over the top, even for SW. and especially at such an emotional time.
  16. JediCouncilMember Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2003
    star 4
    I didn't mind this scene, and the more I see it on DVD the more I like it.

    That being said, I would've have gone a bit of a different route with it.

    I would've had Vader rise the same way then when he asks about Padme, have the Emperor just say "She's dead", then Vader says in an extremely angry tone "What, No." (not a prolonged Noooooo) then breaks away from the table. force crushes the room (like what was in the film), then reaches out his arm and start to force choke the Emperor. He then lifts him up in an attempt to force crush him, but Sidious struggles to raise up his arm and gives him a lightning blast. As Sidious falls to his knees, he gets up and starts cackling and does his evil Emperor laugh and says "yes, yes, yes. Your anger has made you strong. Even more powerful then any Jedi. And it was the Jedi that killed your wife. Now join me and together we will make them pay for what they have done to you" Sidious then reaches out, helps Vader up and they go about their business of wrecking havoc for the next 20 yrs.

    I think this would have showed just how powerful Vader was, but still unable to take out the Emperor due to lightning and sets up the OT struggle between Vader and the Emperor.

    I really like the Force crushing the room in the scene, but wish we got a little suited Vader power display.
  17. JohnWesleyDowney Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2004
    star 5
    Alex....

    "panning" back

    [face_laugh]

    You don't "pan" the camera "back." A pan is when the
    camera physically turns either left or right. (It pivots
    on what is called a "fluid head" which allows free, smooth
    movement.)

    If the camera moves up or down for a different angle but does
    not change it's location on the set, it's a "tilt" of the camera.

    If the camera physically moves backward or forward, then it "tracks"
    back or forward, and if you adjust the lens for a closer or wider look,
    it's a zoom. The shot in question is a widening zoom.

    Pans back? I just about fell out of my
    chair laughing. How can I have a debate with you guys
    when you can't even get the nomenclature correct?

    Anyway, I stand by everything I said in my original post.

    Uh oh. I see we're not supposed to post here. My bad.
    I won't do it again.


    BTW, kudos Downey on guessing my usernames origin correctly


    Thanks...it wasn't difficult. I read the Anthony Burgess novel
    fifteen years ago. :)
  18. Ceethreepio Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2003
    star 5
    It is the homage to Frankenstein.
  19. Darkwish Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2001
    star 4
    JohnWesleyDowney, I laughed at the "pan" back remark too. But cut the guy some slack. You knew what he meant and some people on these boards don't have the technical knowledge of the terminology.
  20. Rogue_Pilot Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2003
    star 1
    Hey, I'm not 100 percent satisfied with the Vader scene mysself, but what you're saying seems to be just nostalgia speaking.
    I'm sorry, but Hamill's "No" in ESB is on of the worst acted moments in the entire saga. Hamill looks like some constipated Hamster when he says it, not like a tortured Luke skywalker.



  21. Master_JoeFox Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2004
    I agree with Rogue_pilot reply, Hamil's "NOOOOOOO" is indeed awfull, what makes people letting it go (like myself) or just simply enjoy that moment is the ******* twist that just happened 5 seconds ago.

    But to the point.

    - Vader's "NOOOOO" in ROTS is also supose to mirror Luke's.

    - The scene isn`t really THAT awfull, I mean, it`s supossed to be kind of cheese because (like it or not) STAR WARS is based on a genre that IS cheese to begin with.

    - The "Neat little thing" is precisely the Frankenstein reference (clumsy steps and such) wich, by the way I thought was really interesting and somewhat real (I mean, if someone has been sliced in pieces and got new artificial limbs wich includes BOTH legs and a lung, wouldn`t they walk akward the first few steps?) The problem is that most people wanted Vader to be cool and kick a** right off the bat... To me, the scene plays out perfectly, it shows that he needed some time to adapt himself to the suit, and on top of that, the first news he hears after that painfull and life-changing operation is that despite all the thigs he did and sacrificed, Padme is dead... How would you react when you find out that everything you`ve done was in vane?

    Scream "NOOOOOOO" maybe?

    May the force be with y`all
  22. Obi-Chron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2003
    star 4
    Loved this thread when it was new -- love it still!

    Texas nailed the pivotal 'birth of Vader' scene and prepared us for what GL was envisioning with it. Indeed, the ROTS scene harkens back to the original 'Frankenstein' brithing with Boris Karloff, and is an obvious 'nod and wink' toward that classic scene. The stumbling, clumsy Vader we see at the end of ROTS seems unsettling, as the villian we know from later films is a powerful, graceful and seemingly all-powerful baddie.

    I liked the "Noooooo!" My two daughters laughed out loud. They viewed it as 'pretty corny.' I, on the other hand, saw the scene as the last vestige of Vader's humanity exiting his now entombed and totally decimated torso. Palpatine's smirk reinforces my view.

    We don't hear this kind of humanity in Vader's 'voice' again until the end of TESB when he stands on his starship communicating through the force with his physically and emotionally defeated son.
  23. Jedi_Ford_Prefect Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2003
    star 4
    Peter Suschitzky was the cinematographer for ESB. Irvin Kerschner was the director, who by all acounts stayed out of the visual production of the film in order to dedicate his time to working with the actors. Just watch any of Kershner's other films and you'll see that while he's an okay guy when it comes to working with performers, his visual talents rank somewhere within the range of Kevin Smith.

    Honestly. Suschitzky is one of the greatest cinematographers of the latter half of the twentieth century. Go watch some of his films with director David Cronenberg and you'll immediately see his style. I've always held Lucas as much more primarily responsible for ESB's visuals than Kershner ever could have been, but ESB wouldn't have quite as good as it is if it didn't have Suschitzky.

    And by the way, every time somebody says an elongated "NO!" in Star Wars it always sounds equally ridiculous and corny. That's how it's supposed to sound.
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