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TRANSITION TO VADER: "The neat little thing"

Discussion in 'Archive: Revenge of the Sith' started by TEXAS, Aug 27, 2002.

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  1. Darth-LeBaron

    Darth-LeBaron Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2002
    Hey LUH-3417, you need to read this thread more carefully and don't jump the gun so quickly. The "lightning" reference is one regarding the "mood of Frakenstein"... although some people may have inferred this later. I only mention it to set the tone of that particular scene in E3. First, Episode 3 will be unlike ANY movie ever made, but we are simply talking about the underlying themes. Thats all.

    Lets try to help inspire new relevant thought here and not criticize those who are trying. We are a brotherhood of Star Wars fans!!!!!!!



     
  2. DARTH_JANISSARY

    DARTH_JANISSARY Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 6, 2002
    What if instead Frankenstien he turnes into more of a dark side vampire in he feeds on the dark side therefore making him dependant on the Emperor's survival
     
  3. TEXAS

    TEXAS Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2002
    DARTH_JANISSARY
    "the Franky Theory" leaves room for any idea that would be "in the vocabularry of the 30' and 40'"
    DARTH-LeBaron myself along with others came up with what we believe is the current script by Hales/GL: We might be right, we might be completely out there, but one thing's for sure, and this is what DARTH-LeBaron was sayin', the theory evolved a lot since the first post and looks now like something we could very much see on screen in May 2005...For those who still think "the Franky Theory" makes no sense at all, then provide good arguments about what you believe the "30' & 40'" refer to. (Film noir, gangsta movie, cinematographic style/ using shadows with fast editing to cover a number of scenes in one ect...)



     
  4. Darth-LeBaron

    Darth-LeBaron Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2002
    Someone in another thread had mentioned the whole possibility of there being a theme related to Dr. Jeckle and Mr. Hide (I think that is what they were called). This is a great idea and we have reason to believe that this could happen: The sleighing of the Tusken Raiders, The Impatience to fight Duku, and his temper-tantrum he throws about Obi One, "He's holding me back".
     
  5. TEXAS

    TEXAS Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2002
    As long as Gl wasn't refering to Shirley Temple in Little Princess, i'll be fine.
    I hope that his influences from the 30's will be Orsen Welles and all those great directors. That being said, get your CBS FOX dusty version of the OT, stick it in your old VCR and watch ANH's scene with OB1's monologue, then eject it, if everything's still working, insert your ROTJ tape in there and fastforward to the scene on Dagobah, well listen carefully, focus, concentrate and knowing that GL thinks of his creation as a mellodic symphony with parallel destinies and commun themes, tell me...really...if you think GL was thinking of "films noir", "Doctor Jeckyl & Mr Hyde" or "Baskerville's barking" when talkin' about "the 30's & 40's" because i really don't think so.
    GL was referring to Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley's FRANKENSTEIN (1818) C'on guys! it's a dark movie about the transformation of a man into a machine! OB1 said that his father was dead, what do you think?
    "THE CERTAIN POINT OF VIEW" IS NOT WHAT WE THOUGHT AND ASSUME IT WAS, IN A WAY, OB1 WAS TELLING THE TRUTH IN ANH, BUT GOT SCARED THAT LUKE WOULD LEAN TOWARDS THE DS, THEREFORE CHANGED HIS WAY TO LOOK AT THE SITUATION IN ROTJ TO ALLOW LUKE TO KEEP HOPE...ANAKIN WILL DIE IN EP.III!!!
     
  6. THRASH

    THRASH Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Sep 14, 2002
    First of all, the theory makes total sense. Everything checks out, and it explains everything. Secondly, that doesn't make it true. All this stuff about young Anakin not sounding like Vader or old Anakin can be easily explained: The films were made over twenty years apart! Okay, maybe not the most satisfying explanation, but a simple one. And didn't anybody notice how at the end of AOTC, Anakin is wearing black robes very very similar to Vader's outfit? That's leading somewhere. How about Anakin's descent into the dark side in AOTC? If he were resurected by an evil emperor into an evil body, Anakin wouldn't have to descend into the Dark Side! GL is one of the greatest storytellers of all time, but this twist is totally not his style. However, it is an awesome theory, and you never know...
     
  7. Jedi_Master201

    Jedi_Master201 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    May 5, 2001
    TEXAS - "For those who still think 'the Franky Theory' makes no sense at all, then provide good arguments about what you believe the '30' & 40" refer to. (Film noir, gangsta movie, cinematographic style/ using shadows with fast editing to cover a number of scenes in one ect...)" (Emphasis mine)


    The Shadow Scene


    Not sure if this thread holds any weight, but the idea makes sense.
     
  8. Darth-LeBaron

    Darth-LeBaron Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2002
    I have read 1000's of threads, and I believe that TEXAS has made the most realistic, idealistic and suitable prediction of all predictions. Several fans, including myself, are believers of the "Franky Theory"

    ... being the DIE HARD STAR WARS fan that I am, as always, I did a little research... just to show the facts.

    HERE IS WHAT HAPPENED IN THE THIRTYS-FORTYS:

    1) The Great Depression
    2) The Mob: "Al Capone" and his crew began the art of organized crime... "The Prohibition Era"
    3) Jazz Music and musicals
    3) The Industrial Revolution was still going strong
    4) The Golden Age: The MOST famous movies of all times:
    A. Frankenstein
    B. Gone With The Wind
    C. The Wizzard of Oz
    D. Dracula
    E. The Black Lagoon
    NOTE: This was the era of classic horror flicks.
    5) Steam Engines are at its peak, but fuel powered engines make a market introduction.
    6) The events leading to WWII take place... i.e., the individual incidents that ignite the world into war.

    It has to have something to do with these subjects. I FIRMLY believe that the Frankenstein theory holds the most weight, but ol' Georgie L. could be referring to WWII. Soldiers leaving their wives and families to fight for their countries, the hell of war, the outcome of war.

    I think that this should ignite some interesting theories. Talk to me guys. Texas, any thoughts?
     
  9. padluv

    padluv Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 20, 2002
    The Epi 3 Wizard of Oz connection -- we finally figured it out! epi 3 will be a musical! Some examples of numbers:

    --Jar Jar:

    "I would not be just a nuffin'
    My head all full of stuffin'
    My heart all full of pain
    I would dance and be merry
    Life would be a ding-a-derry
    If I only had a brain.
    MEESA SO STUPID!"

    --Anakin at beginning of movie:

    "If I were King of the Forest,
    Not Queen, not Duke, not Prince!
    My regal robes of the forest
    Would be satin, and not cotton, and not chintz.
    I'd command each thing, be it fish or fowl.
    With a SLASH, and a royal PALP.
    I'd click my heel
    All trees would kneel
    And the mountains bow
    And the bulls kowtow
    And the sparrow would take wing
    If...I ...if...I ..were King!
    DAMN OBI-WAN HOLDING ME BACK!"

    --The Empirial Senate to Palpy:

    "We represent the GULLIBLE League,
    The GULLIBLE League
    The GULLIBLE League
    And in the name of the GULLIBLE League,
    We wish to welcome you to REPUBLIC LAND!
    From now on you'll be history!
    You'll be hist...
    You'll be hist...
    You'll be history.
    And we will glorify your name!
    You will be a bust
    Be a bust ...
    Be a bust ...
    In the Hall of Fame!
    Tra-la-la-la-la-la,
    Tra-la-la, tra-la-la
    Tra-la-la, la, la, la!"

    --Vader at end:

    "When a man's an empty kettle
    He should be on his mettle
    And yet I'm torn apart
    Just because I'm presumin'
    That I could be kind of human
    If I only had a heart!

    I'd be tender, I'd be gentle
    And awful sentimental
    Regarding love and art
    I'd be friends with the sparrows
    And the boy that shoots the arrows
    If I only had a heart!"

    --At Dooku's death, as sung by Jedi:

    "Ding-dong the SITH is dead
    Which old SITH? The wicked SITH
    Ding-dong the wicked SITH is dead.
    Wake up you sleepyhead
    Rub your eyes, get out of bed
    Wake up the wicked SITH is dead.
    He's gone where the goblins go.
    Below - below - below
    Yo-ho, let's open up and sing
    And ring the bells out
    Ding Dong' the merry-oh,
    Sing it high, sing it low
    Let them know the Wicked SITH is dead!"

    --Padme at Anakin's turn to the dark side:

    "Someday I'll wish upon a star
    And wake up where the clouds are far behind me...
    Where troubles melt like lemon drops,
    Away above the chimney tops,
    That's where you'll find me...

    Somewhere, over the rainbow, PLEBIANS WED!
    They wed over the rainbow,
    Why then - oh, why couldn't I?

    If happy little PLEBIANS MARRY
    Beyond the rainbow
    Why, oh, why can't I?"

    YOU'RE A GENIUS DARTH LEBARON! HOW DID YOU SEE THIS PROFOUND CONNECTION--LOL! ;)

    (Just teasin'!)


     
  10. TEXAS

    TEXAS Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2002
    DARTH LE_BARON
    I don't wanna give you a shoe shine, but you should be the one behing this thread!
    Your researches are always right on, they always hit the spot.
    If i provided (along with others) the original idea, man you're taking it to an other level, your inputs are really clever!
    I mean the fact that the Great depression could be an influence on EP.III's making.
    Movies were dark before the 50's and EP.III will surely be on the dark side!
    The thing about WWII now, i don't think that is possible. He already got influenced by WWII's soldier's outfits to create the Naboo N-1 pilots's helmets and all!
    So i try to think of something fresh.
    And i repeat one more time that i don't think GL was referring to a cinematographic technique, a style, or a way to edit, shoot and cut the scene when he was talkin of a "neat little thing" but rather a feel, a theme that was popular in the 30's. And most movies from the Hammer's studios share one commun point: DEATH, TRANSORMATION, REBIRTH.

    PS: Padlov
    That musical was awesome, you made me laugh out loud and this is rare!
     
  11. padluv

    padluv Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 20, 2002
    Thanks Texas--I thought lebaron's post was was good as well--trying to get to what all the options were behind GL's statement...but when i saw the wizard of oz as one of the movies, i couldn't help myself...i immediately thought of anakin singing the king of the forest song, and went to look at the other lyrics as well...and so many fit so perfectly, it was hilarious....

    i do, in seriousness, think those movies were very kind-of staged gothic...the 'shadow question' thread (although based, i'm sure, on not valid info) still would be interesting in that all those dracula-esque frankenstein movies had bad things happening in shadow for classic style as well as an easy way to show something impossible to do in special effect at that point (and also for ratings purposes).

    I think the 30's & 40's are very stylistic (this is an ambiguous word, but i'm not sure exactly how to explain), and i think SW is as well, so epi 3 could fit really well into that mold...and you're right about the fall & redemption...most of those horror films had that as well...

    interesting post and thread...kudos tex! :)
     
  12. DARTH_JANISSARY

    DARTH_JANISSARY Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 6, 2002
    I think Darth-Lebaron has it right with his research there could be a Great Galactic Depression due to many factors war or the fact that the Bankers Guild who might I add is part of the seperatist movment could restrict money from republic worlds. the Techno Guild is also a part of the separatist movement so of course they would be changing technolgy (war sometimes drives techology to new limits). The Huts could cement thier place in the galactic underworld
    Thus the Mob Reference. And lastly the new Imperial Ships like Tie Fighters & Star Destroyers are like the new stuff like in the Fifties when jets becam the norm over prop planes
     
  13. obi-wanforever

    obi-wanforever Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Sep 15, 2002
    sorry but NO
     
  14. obi-wanforever

    obi-wanforever Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Sep 15, 2002
    Sorry but NO
     
  15. TEXAS

    TEXAS Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2002
    Interesting obi-wanforever !
    very constructive! keep on going i'm all yours! hu hu! hum! it's getting better! what else!

    No honestly, Darth-LeBarron "the great Depression thing" is the smartest thing i've red on this thread!

     
  16. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    Heck of a subject you have here TEX. Fascinating.

    Have you mentioned before that resurrection is a common theme used throughout art following the Crisis of Acts 2 and 3?

    Maybe Lucas will flip this on its head and have a "rebirth" of sorts like you're suggesting, not of a hero but a villain?

    :)


    EDIT: No, Anakin. How he is resurrected is debatable.
     
  17. Jedi_Master201

    Jedi_Master201 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    May 5, 2001
    Surely you aren't talking about Dooku...
     
  18. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    No, Anakin. How he is resurrected is debatable.

    Maybe it is a literal resurrection with the "birth" of Vader or it could be symbolic with Anakin barely alive.

    Kenobi: "He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader."

    Is it literal or symbolic?
     
  19. TEXAS

    TEXAS Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2002
    Kenobi: "He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader."
    Is it literal or symbolic?


    Well, i think that this is the most important question of all--From what point of view did OB1 have? I mean WHY DO WE ASSUME THAT THE TRUTH LIES IN HIS ROTJ'S MONOLOGUE ON DAGOBAH? WHY COULDN'T IT BE IN HIS CONVO WITH LUKE ON TATOOINE IN ANH? ShaneP That is a great question here!
    "He ceased to be..."
    "A young Jedi named Darth Vader murdered and killed your father..."
    "What i told you was true but from a certain point of view"
    WHY IF OB1 WAS STARTING LYING HERE, AND WAS SAYING THE TRUTH BEFORE. THIS COULD CHANGE THE WHOLE PERSPECTIVE. AND WE COULD HAVE ANAKIN REALLY DYING, ANAKIN WOULDN'T BE A DEMON, BUT RATHER A FALLEN ANGEL. AND THAT IS GL'S WORDS...WE ARE GETTING CLOSER!!!
     
  20. padluv

    padluv Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 20, 2002
    i don't really understand what you're suggesting tex...i don't think you could go back to obi lying at that point bc darth himself reveals he's the father...then that totally disrupts the whole redemption of the OT. i think fallen angel moniker is exactly what vader is...except he's able to un-fall at the end
     
  21. DARTH_JANISSARY

    DARTH_JANISSARY Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 6, 2002
    Whoa!!!
    I think I just figured it out in the after WWI Germany (read Republic after clone wars) was in a depression (read fall of banking guild & tehcno guild). Hitler (Read Palpatine) finds a scapegoat and stars persucuting the Jews (Read Jedi)The only problem is in that universe the bad guys win..at least for a while

    (Hiters rise to power=Palpatine rise to power) sums up the 30's to the 40's
     
  22. Darth-LeBaron

    Darth-LeBaron Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2002
    Very well said DARTH_JANISSARY!!!

    That is very close to a theory that I have been keeping a secret. I have posted my theory on other threads, but it is worth copying to this one.
     
  23. Darth-LeBaron

    Darth-LeBaron Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2002
    Dear TEXAS, DARTH_JANISSARY, padluv, Jedi_Master201, ShaneP and obi wanforever:

    Guys, you have brilliant suggestions. I solute you all. Allow me to share with you a theory that I thought up as soon as I watched AOTC. When you read this, it will all make sense.

    (as created by Darth-LeBaron)
    THE ENTIRE SAGA is a vision that the EMPEROR HAS FORESEEN:

    FIRST: Sidious uses the Trade Fed. to attack Naboo to get sympathy from the Senate in order to become the Supreme Chancellor.

    SECOND: Following the victory of the Battle at Naboo, Sidious (disguised as Sifos Dius) places the order for a Republic Army to be built, which takes about ten years to create (i.e., the time that Ep 2 starts).

    THIRD: Ten years later Sidious manipulates the Trade Fed. once more. Since the Trade Federation is timid from their first defeat, Sidious cleverly convinces them to build a larger droid army, accept this time he rallies the participation of other seperatists. In the mean time the Separatist Alliance is led to believe that they have the advantage over the Republic because the Republic doesn't have a military to defend it (SO THEY THINK!!!).

    FORTH: With perfect timing (as foreseen by Sidious), the Clone Army is discovered and deployed to begin the first battle of the Clone War Campaign (to the surprise of the seperatist!!!). Once again, Palpatine plays on the emotions of the Senate and uses mind tricks on Jar Jar to convince the Senate to grant EMERGENCY POWERS to himself.

    FIFTH: Palpatine uses the massive Clone Army to crush the Seperatists, making himself a Heroic Galactical Savior of the Republic. PLEASE NOTE, this whole war is also a clever means to make the remaining Jedi EXTINCT by deploying them into this bloody Clone War.

    SIXTH: Once again, playing on the emotions of the Senate, Palpatine convinces the Senate to vote him in as Emperor of the Republic... after all, he has proven his leadership abilities and has the trust of the people.

    This, I am not too sure of, but ... Since Duku is the leader of the seperatist, it is possible that he is killed in the final battle. Palpatine may even betray him and have him captured and executed for treason or for Leading a group of seperatists. This would be the perfect opportunity for Sidious to earn the admiration of Young Anakin, after all, lets face it, Anakin hates Duku and he respects Palpatine. By doing so Palpatine cleverly conceals his affiliation with Darth Tyranus and provides the opportunity for Anikin to join Sidious!!! (hence the "trick")

    SEVENTH: In the midst of Palpatine's growing popularity, he uses the jedi as a scapegoat for the galaxy's problems... stating that they have failed to maintain order and keep peace, there-by ordering the death of the EVEN FEWER remaining Jedi. Vader will have been introduced by this point and leads the Slaughter of the remaining Jedi.

    This is the only way I can see everything falling into place smoothly.

     
  24. yodaman

    yodaman Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 26, 1999
    Well, that summation has been generally accepted as correct, though with minor nitpicky points here and there, but still in general accurate.
     
  25. Jedi_Master201

    Jedi_Master201 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    May 5, 2001
    Nice run-down, LeBaron. :) Very nice. I always love hearing PAlpatine's plan in full. Makes me tingle at the thought of his brilliance and evil. :D


    Also, that's a VERY interesting way to look at this. The whole thing, a vision of Palpatine... Makes that line..."Everything is going exactly as I have forseen..." so much cooler. I had always thought he had just looked into the future a little while back from that point, but this puts a new spin on things. Perhaps he's seen all of this WAY before the events of TPM.


    And when you think about it, he acts as if he's seen it all before. He talks to the Nemoidiens as if he's seen their cowardly response to his plan. He says that the thought of losing Padme at the beginnig of AotC is unbearable, in a way that seems like he knows exaclty what her response will be. When all of the people in his office turn to leave, he walks slowly over to his desk and looks at them as if to be thinking, "Yes, yes... Go out and do as I saw you would do long ago." And during that Senate scene where he gains emergency powers, again it's the same. As if he knows EXACTLY what will happen.


    Now, I used to attribute all of this to him merely being overconfident in his plans and thinking that nothing could stop him. But this theory that he has seen it all (except for Anakin's last bit of goodness that ends up killing the Wrinkly One!! ;)) makes a heck of a lot of sense.
     
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