ST Trees, The Force and Temples

I mean the temple that Kylo helped destroy.

 

You mean how Bloodline mentioned Luke had been on a quest for the lore of the Jedi? I am not sure? Do you have any guesses or is anything mentioned about that? I guess it would the eldest student probably just guessing.

 

I dunno, we don't even know the ages of the students, do we? We have no idea even how old Ben was when he started going on missions with Luke...

 

I think it is implied Ben started training with Luke at about 23 years of age but doesn't give a specific year the Temple was destroyed.

 

Where did Luke train his first jedi students ? Did he make a new Jedi Temple?

 

Not sure if he built a new one or used one that wasn't destroyed by the Empire.

 

Ok, besides the one on Lothal and Coruscant, is there any other known temples that I can't remember??

 

Maybe the Force trees are the Whills. Has this been theorized before? The guardians of the Whills are those who look after them, and the Whills/trees communicate their philosophy through the Force, and the guardians transcribe what the Whills tell them.

 

Yes, this is an interesting interpretation. Lucasfilm have also implied over the last year or so, that Kyber crystals are sentient, which made me consider whether they too might represent the Whills in some way. But the tree, being the ultimate symbol of the natural world, would be an excellent candidate for this.

Edit:

There's a piece of Rogue One concept artwork that seems to explore a possible relationship between trees and the crystals.

 

That is Brilliant!

Mungo Baobab - Some time ago, I stated the theory that the trees and crystals are connected or that maybe the crystals are a type of 'fruit' or 'seed' (for lack of better terms). In the 'seed' side of the theory it would be sort of like the Arkenstone is the 'heart' of the mountain in LOTR and Hobbit. The crystal could be the 'heart' of the tree. Unfortunately I was ridiculed (by some other posters) numerous times for "such an outlandish" theory and it didn't gain any traction at that time.

 

What are they doing there?

 

I like the crystal 'fruit' or 'seed' theory as well. Maybe Luke's staff is a root or branch from the tree that has a crystal inside of it. Perhaps he'll drive it into the ground at some point, maybe in IX, planting a new tree. The staff has a head carved on it.... perhaps Luke whittled it there to create a sort of companion on his island. The staff talks to him in a sort of Mary Poppins parrot umbrella way, through the Force. He might look at the staff's face and say something, but the mouth would not actually move when it replies to him.

One of my favorite parts of the new Twin Peaks is The Arm/Tree.

 

Kyber crystals are Porg eggs.

 

This gives a whole new meaning to omelette.

 

Funnily enough, I am currrently just a little bit obsessed with Luke's walking stick. Or rather, by the snake-like image carved into it - an image which paired with the Force tree on Ahch-To, might suggest that the story will draw from the familar and ancient symbols of the tree of life / knowledge of good and evil, and the serpent as a being representing both positive and negative aspects of the universe, life and death, chaos and order, and the eternal cycle of life.

"The serpent, or snake, is one of the oldest and most widespread mythological symbols. The word is derived from Latin serpens, a crawling animal or snake. Snakes have been associated with some of the oldest rituals known to humankind and represent dual expression of good and evil."

Chthonic serpents and sacred trees

In many myths, the chthonic serpent (sometimes a pair) lives in or is coiled around a Tree of Life situated in a divine garden. In the Genesis story of the Torah and Biblical Old Testament, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is situated in the Garden of Edentogether with the tree of life and the Serpent. In Greek mythology, Ladon coiled around the tree in the garden of the Hesperidesprotecting the entheogenic golden apples.


Similarly Níðhöggr (Nidhogg Nagar), the dragon of Norse mythology, eats from the roots of the Yggdrasil, the World Tree.

Under yet another Tree (the Bodhi tree of Enlightenment), the Buddha sat in ecstatic meditation. When a storm arose, the mighty serpent king Mucalinda rose up from his place beneath the earth and enveloped the Buddha in seven coils for seven days, so as not to break his ecstatic state.

The Vision Serpent was also a symbol of rebirth in Mayan mythology, with origins going back to earlier Maya conceptions, lying at the center of the world as the Mayans conceived it. "It is in the center axis atop the World Tree. Essentially the World Tree and the Vision Serpent, representing the king, created the center axis which communicates between the spiritual and the earthly worlds or planes. It is through ritual that the king could bring the center axis into existence in the temples and create a doorway to the spiritual world, and with it power". (Schele and Friedel, 1990: 68)


Sometimes the Tree of Life is represented (in a combination with similar concepts such as the World Tree and Axis mundi or "World Axis") by a staff such as those used byshamans. Examples of such staffs featuring coiled snakes in mythology are the caduceusof Hermes, the Rod of Asclepius, the staff of Moses, and the papyrus reeds and deity poles entwined by a single serpent Wadjet, dating to earlier than 3000 BCE. The oldest known representation of two snakes entwined around a rod is that of the Sumerian fertility god Ningizzida.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpent_(symbolism)#Chthonic_serpents_and_sacred_trees

Joseph Campbell on the symbolic significance of the serpent:

"Bill Moyers: What do you make of it - that in these two stories the principal actors point to someone else as the initiator of the Fall?

Joseph Campbell: Yes, but it turns out to be the snake. In both of these stories the snake is the symbol of life throwing off the past and continuing to live.

Bill Moyers: Why?

Joseph Campbell: The power of life causes the snake to shed its skin, just as the moon sheds its shadow. The serpent sheds its skin to be born again, as the moon its shadow to be born again. They are equivalent symbols. Sometimes the serpent is represented as a circle eating its own tail. That’s an image of life. Life sheds one generation after another, to be born again. The serpent represents immortal energy and consciousness engaged in the field of time, constantly throwing off death and being born again. There is something tremendously terrifying about life when you look at it that way. And so the serpent carries in itself the sense of both the fascination and the terror of life."


https://www.google.co.uk/amp/sunrec.../excerpt-from-the-power-of-myth-by-joseph/amp

What I think is potentially interesting about the use of this imagery here, is that the cthonic serpent repesents something beyond the rigid moral dualism that we've hitherto seen in the representation of the light and dark sides. The cthonic serpent represents both positive and negative aspects.

 

Mungo Baobab - weren't there also some quotes about the serpent in the Bly book? Or am I making that up?

NVM - just checked and there aren't.

 

Not sure, but the serpent was one of Jung's favourite archetypes - he even wore a serpent ring - so it's possible that Bly may have discussed this, too.

Edit:

Some quotes from Jung on the subject here:

http://jungiangenealogy.weebly.com/serpent.html

 

Hmmmm, hmmmm, and hmmmmmmmmmmm. Good stuff!

Wildcatbarry Yeah, don't you love that? You come up with some well thought out theory. You've had a revelation! You can't wait to see what everyone thinks. So you post your masterpiece...And the next few posts following yours are bickering about protagonists, callbacks, what Pablo said, etc. Basically ignoring your thoughtful post.

 

Mungo Baobab - Also don't forget Moses Rod\staff - turned to a serpent and devoured the Egyptian Pharoah's serpents which were staffs\rods themselves before his magicians turned them to serpents.

Darphus_Mon - I didn't mean to come across that I was acting as a spoiled child just that I would be open to give thought to others theories in hopes they would in return do the same. Anyway thanks for your compassion.

 

Mungo Baobab I was about to post something similar.
But the main thing for me is not just the snake...
It's a while not that I believe that the Force Tree may be not just a Tree of Knowledge but
the SW version of the so called Cosmic/World Trees or Trees of Life and the snake is just the final details added to that.

If you want to know more about it, you can read this http://www.sacredearth.com/ethnobotany/sacred/worldtree.php

To recap, let's say that the world/Cosmic Tree is a motif present in several religions and mythologies.
Of course details change but there are some common elements and
more than everything it looks to me that they are putting together bits from the different versions to create - as I said - the SW version of this Tree.

World-Tree of Babylonian​

This tree stood at the centre of the Univers,it had white crystal roots penetrating the primordial waters of the abyss, which were guarded by an amphibious God of wisdom .​

Roots were 3 (in this case and many others). The Force Tree has 3 branches (not roots) but the number is the same, here and in many other versions. Apparently (MSW) we are going to see some amphibious guardians.

About crystal and the abyss (about the latter, remember that appartently Rey is going to meet and perhaps fight a sea monster) there's even more in other traditions...

Norse version ​

Again 3 roots. "Somewhere, in a space beyond space and a time beyond time grows a magnificent, huge tree, who's branches embrace and uphold the heavens, and who's roots reach deep into the Underworld - it is known as the World-Tree Yggdrasil."​

"Three sacred springs gush forth from beneath the three great roots: From the first flows the spring of wisdom and knowledge, jealously guarded by the hermit Mimir. (Luke ?) From the second, springs the well of destiny, guarded by the three Norns, the sisters of fate (perhaps somethng like the nuns MSW spoke about?)...From beneath the third root flows the river of life. Its waters carry the souls of the dead back to be reborn into their next incarnations. But this microcosm what not be complete without the serpent and the eagle, signifying the polarised opposites between the creative and the destructive forces of the Universe. At the very base of the tree lurked the serpent Niddhogg who constantly gnawed away at its roots. Its destructive powers were only kept at bay by an eagle, symbol of the sun, who lived in the upper branchesof the tree from where he continuously warded off the serpent's assaults. Thus, the forces of life and death are kept in equilibrium and the essential life-force of the tree is never damaged."​

​

"The images of the World-Tree and the Tree of Life are closely related and often merge. Sometimes they are replaced by the image of a cosmic mountain, which is also located at the centre of the universe and which likewise generates and sustains all life. All these images symbolically combine the male and female creative powers of the Universe. The obviously phallic connotations of the tree or mountain are identified with the male life-giving, creative force, while the chthonic underworld amidst the roots of the tree or within the crystal cave of the mountain represent the female transformational and regenerative power of the earth womb. Both aspects fused together represent the 'ursymbol' of life, the essence of cyclic existence and eternal self-regeneration.​

We see a cave in the BTS pics, we know about the sea creature, we are already speculating about the crystals.
But about Porgs and their nests? Look at the Siberian World-Tree

Up above there is a certain tree where the souls of the shamans are reared, before they attain their powers. And on the boughs of this tree are nests in which the souls lie and are attended. The name of the tree is 'Tuuru. The higher the nest in this tree, the stronger will the shaman be who is raised in it, the more he will know, and the farther he will see​

​

Finally...

Sometimes the Tree of Life is represented (in a combination with similar concepts such as the World Tree and Axis mundi or "World Axis") by a staff such as those used by shamans. Examples of such staffs featuring coiled snakes in mythology are the caduceus of Hermes, the Rod of Asclepius, the staff of Moses, and the papyrus reeds and deity poles entwined by a single serpent Wadjet, dating to earlier than 3000 BCE.

 

Good stuff!

Perhaps the Porgs are the representation of the eagle.

 

Well, why not?
But I must admit I'm intrigued by the chance that they may be somehow "souls" of force sensitive people dead or yet to be born (I'm thinking about the siberian tradition).

However the true point to me, is why are they using these motifs?

I mean, if I'm right, there's a difference between a Tree of Knowledge and a Cosmic/Worl or Life Tree and the meaning and the use of these symbolisms may change according to that.

If it's a Tree of Knowledge, if the path is that, we may expect some things.

If it's more than that, then there's room for many other speculations.
However it's still very hard to understand what they're going to do, because even in the case of the Cosmic/World of Life Tree itself traditions are a bit different (even though same details/elements are used) and they (I mean people at LF) are creating a new one.

I believe - but I'm speculating so fell free to disagree or add your own observations - that if the Force Tree and the rest of the things we're going to see on Ahch to
will be something more similar to a World/Cosmic of Life Tree, we can expect for sure that the lore of old (and already dead) generations of Jedi, may come into play.

What's a Cosmic or Life Tree? A representation of the cyclical nature of life, which is - from this pov - eternal.

Therefore - and that's interisting to me - there may be 2 more things (them both or just one of them).

1 - We cannot debunk the chance that they are introducing somehow the reincarnation concept. But this could be played out in many, many ways.
To be clear I don't think Rey must be Anakin reincarnated, but it could be that all the people - especially those force sensitive - may somehow come back.
If we think about Maz's line "if you live long enough, you see the same eyes in different people..." it could be. I mean, perhaps if you die and you're one with the Force and if the Force creates life, you or pieces of you may come back. And not just in a new born human being, but in an animal or a plant.. Chances are endless.
Therefore it may have to do or not with Rey's origins.

2 - As I said in my post, we also know about the Cave (and perhaps crystals are involved in that cave) and about the sea creature. In the BTS pics, we saw Rey diving...
and she's a woman.
So the symbolism of the feminine principle (the Cave, the underwater) is heavily represented beside that of the male principle (the tree itself, the snake to some kind of degree)
and this to me may imply many things... balance in the Force as there must balance between male and femine principles.
It could be just a metaphorical representation or there could be more.
I mean that could really lead to a "romance".
And not, I'm not Reylo... but I believe - for other reasons beside those that I'm discussing here - that there's the chance that the ST will end (end, not begin)
with the return of the Chosen One. This may be just another piece to the puzzle in my mind. Or it could be me seing to much of course.

However, if I'm right about the Cosmic/World or Life Tree, things are much more interesting than already are and of course anyone of us can see different things.
We know little, if so, and any speculation is legit.
But it's really interesting, I believe.

 

Didn't Chirrut say that kyber crystals were made in the heart of the strongest stars, not linked to trees?
Am I missing understanding something here?