ST Trees, The Force and Temples

I have a slightly tangential theory. Nothing about Rey and Snoke, although I guess that could sit alongside. The brother and sister gained Force powers from a tree and the Jedi and Sith are born. Before this time, the Force existed as it was created by all living things, but it was just directionless - an energy field capable of sentience, but essentially a blank mind. The girl is killed and as a Jedi with a light spirit she became one with the Force. The Force now had a mind (let's call her the first Whill) and this was added to over the millennia as more spirits joined the netherworld of the Force.

A collective consciousness forms, and this becomes the Will of the Force. Just as living things could interact with the Force, now the Force could interact with our plane of existence and it could also think. It could, for example, superheat the motivator of an R5 unit, rendering it unsellable. It could deflect laser beams around crazy blind space monks, or even deflect laser beams onto a ship's hyperdrive in such a way that it had to land on Tatooine for replacement parts. As only composed of Jedi and other light minded spirits, the Force only acts for good on its own and this is therefore the balance.

Luke, on his hunt for Jedi lore, discovers the legend of the tree and is uneasy. He sees the tree story as an accident - living beings were never supposed to have ability with the Force. The Sith have been destroyed however, and the light is the balance - his father even finally fulfilled the Prophecy, so although unnatural the Force is a power for good now.

Until Snoke pitches up. Whatever Rey is, Snoke could still be the boy, although wouldn't he know about Ahch-To, since the tree is most likely there so millennia ago Snoke was too? Whatever his origin, he turns Ben, Luke is betrayed and his fledgling order is destroyed. Luke is desolate. He sees the cycle continuing with his own order just as it did for the PT Jedi with Order 66 and no doubt at least one other time in history ("Once more, the Sith shall rule the galaxy"). He sees the cycle of the dark side and the light and the endless destruction as being due to the Force and its use and abuse. It's unnatural, but also now an abomination in Luke's eyes. He goes to Ahch-To in order to destroy the Force tree, and by destroying this nexus of the Force then the Force will no longer be able to be wielded. Kill the cycle of destruction. It's time for the Jedi to end.

He burns the tree with his lightsabre, but it will not be destroyed. Luke is banished to a different island and his X-Wing is dragged into the sea, stranding him. Rey turns up, by the Will of the Force, in order to save Luke - bring him back to his faith. Which is where TLJ kicks off.

 

As a Rob Bottin fan, oh yes I did. I thought those aliens were some of the cutest and most whimsical designs he ever created. Now those kids...not so much.

The turtle nuns crack me up. They so Muppet-like and funny to me. They feel like Star Wars as I seem to remember other turtle like beings from somewhere.

As far as the tree lore that folks are posting; I like some of the ideas and immediately thought of the World Tree from Norse mythology.

 

OMG!!!!!!!!

I totally forgot about this movie until you brought it up.


I need brain bleach!!!

 

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/?post_type=news&p=1268068#.WbhTrciGPcs

 

As I was perusing some articles on Yahoo, I came across an article where the author was insistent one of Luke's books is the famed Journal of the Whills. Yeah, ok, many have speculated that, but I was more interested in the GL Annotated Screenplay quote he included:

“Originally, I was trying to have the story be told by somebody else (an immortal being known as a Whill); there was somebody watching this whole story and recording it, somebody probably wiser than the mortal players in the actual events. I eventually dropped this idea, and the concepts behind the Whills turned into the Force. But the Whills became part of this massive amount of notes, quotes, background information that I used for the scripts; the stories were actually taken from the Journal of the Whills.”

Snoke is a Whill. The Supreme Leader is wise.

What if the Whills were the original force users and the Jedi were formed as a counter to them (and/or the Sith)? What if the Whills, maybe not necessarily straight up dark siders, were the ones who discovered you could USE the force for your own (arguably selfish) means (see: mind tricks, mind reading, levitating objects, seeing the future, etc.)? The Whills were magnanimous enough to share these ideas with others, but what if those others started to really use those powers for self-indulgent means? [Aside: Could the Sith predate the Jedi in the history books?] What if the Jedi were formed by those who appreciated the "being one with the force/nature zen-esque ideals" of the Force, but then cherry picked some of the Whills force power skills and rationalized them as a necessity to protect those less fortunate (see non FS beings) as an assembly of knights?

Vader and Palpatine both alluded to the Dark side being the true nature of the Force. I had always taken that as the Dark side being like the primitive, animalistic part in all of us that just wants to find the easiest, quickest way to get what we want, keep us happy/satisfied and attain/control beings and things (is this the Id?). But what if Palpatine and Vader are referring to ancient Whills teachings? Man is inherently evil kind of stuff. Teachings ambiguous enough to be fodder for sith principle, perhaps?

Also, don't we learn the Whills worshipped/used Kyber crystals in Rogue One and/or the Guardians of the Whills book? Snoke allegedly has a ring of black Kyber.

Imagine Luke learning the Jedi started under the noblest of pretenses, best of reasons, but then deliberately chose to use borderline dark side powers to "defend" themselves as knights? Add in his own experiences and I can see how he broke. Kinda makes a lightsaber look hypocritical.

My guess is Rey is going to hear all this and put her own spin on everything. The galaxy at large won't know the potentially clouded history of the original jedi, but the do know Luke Skywalker. The New Jedi could make things right, inspire people to rise up against evil and oppression. You have to keep fighting the good fight. Never give up. Pick up the lightsaber (symbolism!!) and go to work!

 

Our blind friend in R1 isn’t a dark sider. And why would a dark side cult have a temple on Jedha?

 

A sort of 'fallen angel'. I like your idea. Good catch.

 

Not sure how long this is gonna go, so strap in.

I've had a germ of an idea ever since it was mentioned that trees featured prominently with The Jedi. This was confirmed when the first teaser showed basically the Home Tree of the Jedi on Ahch-to, completely hollowed out with Journals inside.

What a lot of people(including myself) have glossed over is that The Jedi is a Religion. Its mentioned as such. Now, a religion typically is not comprised of mumbo jumbo platitudes and what not. Invariably, a religion concerns what the heck happens to us after we die. Nobody knows. So Religion tries to fill in that blank in order to get you to follow its dictates. You might meet your maker, you might go to that Other Guy, there might not be anything at all until everything ends. Who knows.

The thing is, that I believe the Jedi found a way to transcend death in a limited capacity. In order to do this, they need to attach themselves to a living thing. As The Force flows through all living things, they needed something that lived for a long time. In order to do this, they discovered that by whatever ceremony you want to dream up, they could attach themselves to trees. On death, their spirit, tethered to those trees, could co-exist with nature and provide them a form of Second Life beyond death. It would also allow them to impart their knowledge upon the living, who come to visit them, which then get compiled in the form of Journals.

Note that, and I haven't like gone back through all the movies, but every time you see a Force Ghost, its in the presence of trees. So what you basically have is a Jedi version of the Internet where Knowledge can be stored and retrieved(into Journals) to be able to impart that Knowledge on future generations. This is the backbone of the Jedi Order.

Now, if The Jedi have a means of Life after Death, what about our old friend The Emperor? Imagine you conquer a GFFA, what do you then want? You want the means to cheat death or outlive your mortal body. It gets old, it dies, you die, someone else takes over. That's no fun. You can extend it with tech, but still... you will eventually die. So how can you keep yourself from dying? The Jedi use Trees, but the problem is that Trees are incorruptible(i'm making that a conceit yes.. but then... who wants Evil Trees?). So they don't work for someone who has Fallen to the Dark Side.

What The Emperor discovered, is that in order to cheat death, you have to attach yourself to something you can corrupt. A human being. Then when you die... rather than like The Jedi, where you go into the trees... you go into the human and have the ability to use it as a new body. This is why The Emperor wanted Luke to strike him down in ROTJ. In doing so, he could fully go into Vader. The problem is, things didn't go the way he planned. Instead, the idea of Luke dying brought Anakin back from the Dark Side and The Emperor got tossed into the ball of Force Light, splitting the spirit from the body. Now that Anakin had redeemed himself, the spirit could no longer take him over(this was visualized in ROTJ), and instead went elsewhere(ultimately ending up inside Snoke years later).

At which point, the process begins again and a search for a suitable replacement body begins, culminating with Ben Solo... with ultimately Rey showing up to provide an even better option. Ben is now thoroughly corrupted, having killed his own father. The ST ultimately being how The Emperor, over a 30 year period, figures out how to finally get back to full power and exact his revenge on The Skywalkers, with the unwitting help of Rey.

And even deeper, its about how The Sith in the form of The Emperor, have found a way for the Dark Side to cheat death by being able to stay attached to living things, just like The Jedi... but instead of Trees, he uses humanoids to constantly stay alive, hopefully ruling a GFFA forever. This is also part of how The Force is no longer in Balance, because a certain being is not dying, allowing there to be constant Wars amongst the Stars as he attempts to rule them forever.

His death is ultimately what then brings an End to The Saga and brings Balance to The Force.

 

The Emporer is dead. How does Snoke fit in to this theory?

 

In my theories, the reports of his death were greatly exaggerated. Remember, we never saw him die. If you assumed being thrown into a ball of Force Light and getting turned into Smoke constituted death, thats on you :>. ROTJ was quite clear on this.. from a certain point of view. Go back and watch the scene again some time. Its very open to interpretation, if 6 isn't the end of the story.

Also note that JJ Abrams did this exact same thing to the Man In Black on LOST, and it wasn't the end of That Guy either. Nope... he ended up becoming The Smoke Monster.

 

Sounds way too convoluted TBH.

 

In theory, The Jedi can attach themselves to trees and thats the basis of the Force Ghosting and Journals kept by the living to impart their knowledge on future generations. The Emperor can attach himself and control corrupted humans in order to outlive his mortal bodies and rule a GFFA forever.

Simple enough?

 

In short, no it isnt. Where in the saga has the GA audience been told the Jedi attach to trees? and where does this relate to the GA to force ghosting?

You will need to explain all that to the GA before you get started on the Emporer theory.

 

They haven't... Yet. But the theory would explain a lot of stuff. It would give a basis for the Force Ghosting, give a reason for why a tree features prominently in 8, and provide one of the few concrete theories as to what The Journal of the Whills actually is.

Unless you want to go with what GA has been shown which is that.. it happens just because they needed a way for Alec Guiness to be in TESB and ROTJ. That isn't much of a story. But if they start alluding to how The Jedi came about and in particular its capability for its form of Life After Death, its likely prelude to showing how a form of that capability could be created using different means, and be used by The Dark Side as a capability to not only cheat death, but cause The Force to become unbalanced. People aren't supposed to be able to cheat death. It also then gives meaning to a lot of what The Emperor was actually doing with Anakin.

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It might take almost an entire trilogy. In theory, the point of some of TLJ is to start laying the groundwork by deep diving a bit into some Jedi lore. Remember... you shouldn't know who is behind this until the tail-end of 9, and if they do it proper.. his name will never be mentioned. Two words. That's all you need for the greatest oh **** moment in the history of movies, when you finally realize who is truly behind all this.

 

Alright, LJK, I'll bite. ROTS gave me the impression that Palpatine's dark side power somehow fed off Anakin. Like a vampire, or dark magic. Without going into all the examples, just look at the Vader "christening" scene. Palpatine has worked a spell (in more ways than one) over Anakin and with Anakin's commitment to the Dark side, Palpatine grows stronger (notice the weird breathing and his voice deepening).

Need our more scholarly posters to pin it down mythologicaly.Yes, the Sith rule of two might not exceed that number because of greed, evil, secrecy or whatever. But remember the whole symbiot stuff from TPM? Two dark siders grow in power by a mutual connection (magnets? Poles?) In order to maintain that power they cannot break the connection ("I must obey my master"). Or, at least, the supplier thinks he/she must contribute to that connection (see Vader, Kylo) in order to maintain mutual power. But, perhaps, like a battery once the consumer uses up the battery, it needs another or better one (ahem, Rey. "If what you say is true, bring this uber battery her to me."). So the Sith may have worked that way. A master duping an apprentice. But I'm not so sure Snoke is a sith, but a well practiced, knowledgeable (key word - "supreme master is wise") dark sider. Snoke could very well be an original whill who has stayed strong, seemingly cheating death, through his batteries (apprentices). [Aside: is it me or has Snoke appeared in better health in TLJ? Using his personal Duracell Kylo - growing stronger in dark side by killing Han. Kylo may have realized the trick. Afterward, he didn't feel stronger, but Snoke did.]

I don't think these dark siders cheat death by inhabiting another body, but by this seemingly mutual power bond/connection of dark side power. Kind of like a demonized/mirrored/distorted version of love between two people. The Power of love vs the power of the dark side. Hence this "connection" between Rey and Kylo. Not romance, but a feeling of mutual power ("together with our combined strength, we can end this destructive conflict. And bring ORDER back to the galaxy.") When, in reality, it's destiny pulling those two together (to bring balance), but for now the connection might be a trick. Rey may not understand "the pull" to Kylo and/or Snoke.

Resist it, Rey!!!

 

I would have thought attachment to trees was forbidden.

 

Yeah. I am also trying to remember where and when QGJ, OWK, Yoda or Anakin attached themselves to trees. I suppose Disney could go back and do a Lucas to retcon the saga.....

 

Correct. I use the word 'attachment' to describe it. The ability to be connected to Anakin. But should that connection be broken, by say the Emperor dying to a lightsaber, it would free his spirit to go into Anakin. Also note that iirc Palpatine never goes lightning hands until after Dooku has died. Should the Apprentice die... say due to an upgrade, the reverse should occur, with Palpatine absorbing the powers of the Apprentice. If the Master dies, the Master takes over the Apprentice. If Rey were to kill Ben, the abilities would go to Snoke. If Rey were to kill Snoke, the spirit of the master goes into Ben.

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Not sure if i'd go the way of both being stronger. I simply view it as one(the master) can tap into the power of the other. I don't think its vice versa. The Emperor was certainly far stronger(hence the 'unlimited power' when he finally got full access and then dusted Windu). The 'battery' or 'vampire' analogy being better metaphors. But at the same time, if the master is killed.. the other could be halfway across the galaxy and the master would then take over the apprentice. Its Force-based and irrespective of distance. Its also possible that The Emperor could control Anakin across time and space via the connection, which is part of the reason why Vader had to actually push him out in order to 'kill' him. Hence why he had Red Eye when he went to kill the younglings.

You jest, but lets flip it and ask whether this is the root of why attachment in the form of love was forbidden? Remember, when the Emperor finally 'attached' to Anakin, it basically ended up killing Padme. She wasn't corrupted like he was, but the fact they were connected when he fell to the Dark Side means the attachment ended up killing her. In the same way, it could be just as deadly for someone not part of the Jedi Order, who hasn't been prepared to be attached to someone that is, when they go to do the tree ceremony. The point is symmetry in the storytelling. If the darkness and the light are bound together, they should both have similar capabilities through different means based on whether they are Dark or Light. Light would use incorruptible Trees. Dark would use corrupted humanoids. Attachment by basically a muggle(either side) to anyone trying to attach, kills them. You don't get the benefits without either having gone through Jedi Training, or had your soul corrupted to the point a Sith Master can take you over. But it basically becomes two sides of the same coin. They're both trying to exist in a GFFA beyond their mortal bodies. The Jedi in order to pass their Knowledge to future generations, the Sith in order to be able to rule a GFFA indefinitely and never die.

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They really don't have to. AFAIK and can remember, the only time we have ever seen Force Ghosts is at or near tree(s). This has already been built in, its only expanding what has already been shown, and giving context to what you're seeing. Do try to figure a time we haven't, it would interest me if there were. Also note, i'm talking about actually seeing them in the physical manifestation, not when they're just saying something on voice over.

 

Obi-Wan appears to Luke on Hoth, a planet not renowned for its trees...

 

Hmm.. interesting exception. Thanks. Of course... given his hypothermia and likely semi-delirium, is Obi-wan actually there or simply in Luke's mind, or in something approximating a vision?

 

He also speaks to Luke on The Death Star and in his X-Wing, so I suppose we also need a separate theory for Force Ghost Radio.

 

Yep there have been force ghosts not near trees. I think the only thing canon right now said about darksiders cheating death is that line of mess Palpatine feeds Anakin and that line in the aftermath book about some Sith cheating death and living centuries past their time by absorbing the energy out of others or something like that. That could be just a made up legend also kind of like Palpatine's talk with Anakin but they did put it in that book.

 

Force trees might be able to transmit holographic communications to remote locations. Perhaps there are tundra plants below the snow that relayed Obi-Wan's communication to Luke. Tauntauns do eat lichens and small ice plants..... maybe they relayed Obi-Wan's communication to Luke. On a related note, on Star Tours, there's a holographic message from Yoda that is transmitted in the TFA period. Is Yoda transmitting from Dagobah, or is he able to transfer his spirit files to another tree, such as one on the Sanctuary Moon or elsewhere? Or, is he part of a network, watching and listening from plants at all times?

 

I don't think light side spirits live within particular plants, but the Tree is important. Jedi as religion is relevant, as Luke is currently undergoing a crisis of faith.

Before the Jedi, the Force existed, surrounding and penetrating us, happily wending through the millennia binding the galaxy together. The Tree is the original nexus of the Force, where it was first able to make a connection with the physical world and allow Jedi to ensure peace and justice in the galaxy by making rocks float etc. Jedi that die transform into the Force and join this energy field and provide it with a mind, a purpose, a Will. As the Force is all around us then Force Ghosts can appear anywhere.

After the destruction of his new Jedi and Ben's turn, Luke sees this never ending cycle of conflict and destruction as being because living beings can tap into and influence the Force. It's time for the Jedi (and indeed all Force use) to end, but Luke's plan to sever this connection to the Force by destroying the nexus didn't work - the Tree burned but would not be destroyed. Luke is banished by the Fish Nuns to his own island, whilst the Will of the Force arranges for Rey to be brought to Ahch-To in order to help Luke find his faith once more.

No idea how Snoke fits into all this. Seems more likely to me he is a figure from the history of the Force rather than Sidious.

 

Right... but the point being that in order to continue to exist within a GFFA, the spirit has to be tethered to something tied to The Force. In this case... Tree.

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Agreed... I always just glossed over it as a fact of the story without really looking at the possible ramifications. The key thing here being that I don't see them deep diving it, if it isn't setup for something similar with the Dark Side, and if that's the case there is only one really prominent dude that both died and bragged about cheating death. Its not rocket science. But I don't see them just riffing on the Jedi lore(which they are apparently going to do) in 8, for no reason. It has to be setup for other things, or its just spewing words, not telling a cohesive story.

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Well.. consider that under this theory, Snoke would be its own being, that was then taken over at some point after Sideous got split from his body. So there is a lot of latitude to write whatever as his backstory, there. It can simulatenously be that 'completely new character' stuff that Serkis talked about, while also having a hitchhiker actually controlling him.