[Trek] [Nemesis] Bits and pieces.

Discussion in 'Archive: SF&F: Films and Television' started by Everton, Jan 31, 2007.

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  1. Everton Chosen One

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    Jul 18, 2003
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    Okay, the majority of you probably think the film is terrible. I however, do not, and have a couple of questions to put out there.

    1) Dr. Soong gets a mention, but Lore does not. I've always been disappointed by this. If they felt confident enough to drop in a reference to one fairly obscure television reference, why not another? When B-4 is discovered, wouldn't the crew's experiences with Lore be a definite issue? I would've taken a note from someone that Lore was safely locked away somewhere in pieces, as this would at least have provided a bit of closure to Lore's story (I believe 'Descent' does not detail what happened to Lore after he was dismantled - and neither does 'Generations'). Plus wouldn't a mention of Lore simply deepen Data's disappointment that B-4 is yet another imperfect creation? His search for a brother in kind remains a vain one.

    2) The deleted scene on the DVD where the new First Officer receives his 'induction' from Riker. I'm torn over whether this should've been included on the film itself. Does the scene represent something that is too detached from the plot of the film, or, because the film is intended as a send off for the TNG crew, do we deserve a bit more of a goodbye than Picard striding down a corridor smiling to himself? My inclination is to say the scene should've been included.
  2. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    I went through the special edition DVD's extras recently, and the various interviews actually mention Lore a few times. I really do hope that, when they eventually make another Trek film within the "present" Trek era, they include Lore, as a Lore/B4 scene would be quite interesting.

    Nemesis gets a bad rap, but I agree that it's undeserved- it's far, far better than the utterly boring crap of Insurrection. Sure, the offroad action sequence felt disconnected from the rest of the film and the Romulans weren't used to their full potential, but Shinzon was an interesting villian (easily the best film baddie outside of Kahn, Saurin and the Klingon in ST6), and we got was is probably the best Trek ship battle in the franchise's history.

    Just because the film bombed at the boxoffice due to idiots at Paramount releasing it days before The Two Towers doesn't mean the film itself was bad. If anything, the creative failures of Insurrection are to blame more for making the audience just not care about Trek anymore.
  3. Darth Guy Chosen One

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    Aug 16, 2002
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    Lore's dead. Data dismantled him.
  4. JediPrettyBoy Jedi Master

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    Jan 10, 2005
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    When I first heard the title for this movie, I remember thinking that they were finally going to bring Q into the movies; especially since the indication was that this would be the last of the Next Generation movies.

    I came to this conclusion for several reasons. . .

    --Q was in the first episode of The Next Generation

    --Q introduced them to the Borg (possibly as a warning of the danger to come)

    --That danger had been dealt with in First Contact so they didn't need to explore that area again.

    --Q was in the last TV episode of The Next Generation which still left on a cliffhanger with him almost answering Piccard's question.

    --The title alone, Star Trek: Nemesis, made me think that we were going to get to see Piccard's actual nemesis from the show; that is, Q.


    Last, but not least.


    --This was an even numbered movie in the series so something spectacular was going to happen.
  5. DarthButt Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2003
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    I agree with this pretty much entirely. Nemesis is equal to First Contact in my opinion. And First Contact is at least as good as ST2 or 6. Most underrated ST movie, by far. And Insurrection's ending pulls through pretty well, but the rest of the movie is more like a mediocre TNG episode from season 2.

    There was an episode in season 7 (I believe) where Data meets his "mom" and she mentioned I think three other versions of Data that were made before Lore. This is one of those. So this does have some sort of tie in with the TNG series.
  6. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    >>And Insurrection's ending pulls through pretty well, but the rest of the movie is more like a mediocre TNG episode from season 2. <<

    The ending of Insurrection is just as dissapointing, I think. Having the Enterprise flown by a cheap-looking flight stick (which is probably made by Microsoft) that rises up on a cardboard pillar was just a plain bad idea, and the final fight between Picard and the main villian took place in an environment that looked like a bluescreen set without the effects put in (I swear almost everyone in the theater had to have done a double take when they revealed that area, in a "wait, they did finish the movie, right?" kinda way). And the villian himself was just not interesting at all.

    A shame, really, cause the trailers were pretty great for Insurrection.


    >>
    <<

    I'm sure they could come up with a reason to have to reassemble him or access his memory or something.
  7. Darth Guy Chosen One

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    Aug 16, 2002
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    Data seemed pretty intent on making sure he was never reactivated-- I mean, they left him in the middle of outer ****ing space and he still came back. No, Lore was probably melted down or incinerated or something.
  8. Everton Chosen One

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    Jul 18, 2003
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    Well I'd like to know either way. And fact is, the reticence of Trek to reveal Lore's ultimate fate means they haven't consigned him to history just yet.
  9. Darth Guy Chosen One

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    The TNG movies are over. He's not coming back; "Descent" was meant to be his last appearance.
  10. Everton Chosen One

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    So why not drop a teensy bit of closure into Nemesis? It was the ideal opportunity.
  11. Darth Guy Chosen One

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    Aug 16, 2002
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    There was closure. Data shooting and deactivating him; "I... love... you... brother."; Data mentioning that Lore was dismantled. It's everything short of him falling into an open volcano. Plus, without his emotion chip, he wouldn't be Lore anymore (hehehe... that rhymes).
  12. Everton Chosen One

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    Lore was discovered all neatly packed away in his 'box'. I expect that's the condition he currently resides in. Many things could happen. I agree they won't... but upon the discovery of B-4 in Nemesis, I think a mention of Lore:

    "Lore?"

    "No Captain, Lore was de-activated on stardate XXXXX. Never-the-less, we should be cautious."

    ...would have been great.

    Remember B-4's head springs into life without warning, and given that his very presence on the planet is a trap (although they don't know it at the time), it could have been Lore.

    Infact, would Nemesis not have benefitted so much if it had been Lore? The themes of the movie would still have survived. Data and Lore are brothers, and have an established relationship far beyond that of Data and B-4 - one became one thing, and one became the other. Plus a Lore stripped of his emotion chip would be an interesting beast.
  13. Darth Guy Chosen One

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    If "Descent" hadn't ended with Lore's "death," it probably would've been Lore. He just wouldn't be evil without the emotion chip; he'd be a more primitive version of what Data was in TNG.
  14. Everton Chosen One

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    De-activation doesn't equate to death.

    He would still have his memories and accumulated experience.
  15. Darth Guy Chosen One

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    I'll end by saying that B-4 would've been just as cheesy and stupid if it were Lore. Considering that it was a sideplot anyway, it wouldn't have reduced the mediocrity and the poor-man's-Wrath-of-Kahn feeling of Nemesis.
  16. Everton Chosen One

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    Jul 18, 2003
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    I think it would've enhanced the film. And would have given the writers the chance to not have to focus so much on the Picard / Shinzon thing - there are some scenes between the two that drag on far too much. You can't directly replace B-4 with Lore. Lore would've needed to be integrated into the plot more. A slightly different film.

    I just wanted to hear about Lore, and I don't think there'll ever be a better opportunity than Nemesis.

    Also B-4 was in no way cheesy and stupid.
  17. DarthButt Manager Emeritus

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    Jun 11, 2003
    star 5
    That's why I wish to God they would make the plot of the next film TNG related. To close it out. Nemesis kinda left us hanging a bit. Then go on with their stupid prequel idea that will tank and the fans hate.
  18. JediPrettyBoy Jedi Master

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    Jan 10, 2005
    star 4
    If they do make one final TNG film, then they need to bring Q into it since he was such an important part of the series. As stated above, he was in the first and last episodes for goodness sake. Even though I knew, ahead of time, that he wouldn't, I kept expecting him to pop-out at the end of Nemesis showing that he was somehow behind what was happening.
  19. zacparis VIP

    Member Since:
    Sep 1, 2003
    star 7
    I don't think Nemesis is terrible. I liked it, and it has the best soundtrack, after Generations and both Horner scores. :p

    Yeah, I was a bit annoyed about the absence of a Lore mention. I guess they wanted to keep the movie as simple as possible without confusing casual audiences.
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