TRIALS.

Discussion in 'Communications' started by Sith-Lord-Gunray, May 21, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Moderators: JoinTheSchwarz, LAJ_FETT, Ramza
  1. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    I can vouch for this, as well. There have been plenty of heated discussions on the banning and/or unbanning (and even the editing, or not editing) of people. In fact, there are a few people that were previously considered permanently banned unbanned due to re-evaluation and discussion by the MS.

    Also, Daveed, I'll see your Advisory Council and raise you a Focus Group!
  2. Darth Tunes SfC Part III Commissioner

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Nov 26, 2000
    star 10
    I miss focus groups.

    2008-2009 L.A. Lakers: World Champions!:cool:
  3. Katya Jade Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2002
    star 7
    Yeah. I get the idea of trials but I honestly think the system works pretty well. The banning mods don't get carte blanche to do whatever they want.
  4. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    So, how do you schedule the trial?

    How often are Mods organized and here that they can take part?

    Do you get banned first and then have a trial or do you get to continue to post up to your trial?

  5. Yodasbadgirl1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2009
    star 5
    I agree with this statement. I do think the bans serve a purpose. Are they all necessarily right? I don't think they all are. Then again I don' t think certain laws in my country are right either. Either way they (the powers that be) will not change the law or in this case "The modding procedure".

    It makes me feel powerless and dirty.

    I think it's a shame that "trials" are instantly dismissed, especially because in the "Star Wars" universe there are mediators (JEDI) and trials to determine the innocents or guilt. Thats why I love it so much.
  6. Slowburn Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2010
    star 4
    I couldn't agree more, Mel. And, concerning the statement "this system has been in place for a long time and it works just fine" that a lot of you have said; of course it works if there is no opposition. There may be arguments within the Mod Squad forums but that really doesn't leave the common member feeling represented. We have no say, and we have no power. If you engaged some sort of election for mods and took in the tiers of a democracy, this place would run a lot better and the public relations wouldn't seem quite so jaded. If all ideas for improvement are shot down such as these, the JC probably hasn't progressed much since it's foundation. I've really enjoyed the JC since I joined but this is the only part I don't like about it. Five years after the release of the last "Star Wars" movie and a lot of people here probably don't care about the saga as much as they used to, but they've grown to care about this place. Some are grandfathered into the elite group of totalitarians while others aren't, but I'm sure they still care about this place as much as those of us who are new here, but their voices would probably fall on equally deaf ears. That just isn't right.
  7. Grimby Technical Consultant

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2000
    star 7
    You do have a say. You are always welcome to PM the banning moderator or an admin to discuss your ban.

    Allowing public voting of moderators would never work. Winning a popularity contest doesn't qualify anyone to be a moderator.
  8. Slowburn Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2010
    star 4
    See, there you go with the automatic dismissals again. We are no longer talking about bans, we are talking about the infrastructure as a whole. And, like in democracy if you are at all familiar with it, elections do not put every single person up for a slot. Ideally, they would not be popularity contests either. As your friends have said, "if it works". Well, elections do work and they have since democracy was founded. This closed-doors gifted-only process isn't reassuring and does not give anyone a say.
  9. Darth Tunes SfC Part III Commissioner

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Nov 26, 2000
    star 10

    Which, at the end of the day, gets the banned user nowhere (most of the time).

    2008-2009 L.A. Lakers: World Champions!:cool:
  10. JoinTheSchwarz Comms Admin & Community Manager

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Nov 21, 2002
    star 8
    Probably because most bans are well deserved.
  11. Dingo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2001
    star 5
    Okay, you think there is a better way that over the last 10 years has not be considered and examined to death as a fashion for running these forums? Then tell us.

    And by that I don't mean "it should be run democratically". I mean, sit down and think about: how a message board runs; how the users interact with each other; how the technology at hand for use on forums of a size such as this have an impact on use and moderation; how the speed at which connections and interactions can occur; the time that it takes to reach a consensus from a group of people that are spread over the entire world; the balance of bureaucracy against sucking the fun out of being here; the real life versus internet message board balance; the impact that communications over a purely textual media have given the fact that 90% of the human communication spectrum is unavailable; the impact of the wildly varying cultural, ethnical, moral and ethical backgrounds of the people who come here have on their perceptions; how the vast spread of age and maturity levels shape what occurs; and the fact that this is a privately run business.

    If something should change, then tell us logically, rationally, clearly, unambiguously why this is so and how it should be done.



    Oh, and the members of this forum do have a way of getting a say. It's the forum you are posting in at the moment. More change has been initiated by users actually using this forum for the purpose it was initially created for than almost any single other fashion.
  12. Katya Jade Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2002
    star 7
    The process is in place because it works well. A user who gets banned now pretty much knows why s/he is getting a ban. It's not some secret how the forums are run - the rules and expectations are right there in a sticky thread. I hate to use the line but I will...it's an internet messageboard. The system that's in place works the best for this place and we haven't had a whole lot of drama around moderating and bans for a long time. Please don't start proclaiming injustice where there really isn't any. The mods do the best they can - it's a lot about common sense and judgment than hard and fast rules.
  13. Sith-Lord-Gunray Ex-Mod

    Member Since:
    Aug 20, 2003
    star 7
    Ok this wasn't my original point but since that has been mauled to death, I'll just mention this.

    From my 10 seconds of experience in MS, it seemed like only serious bans (really bad problem users, or really bad offenses) were discussed. Usually after the person had been banned, occasionaly before though. I never really noticed any discussion of bans before they happened (I can only recall one instance of that). To me, that makes the most sense, but it does create a small problem with regular users. How many times (especially in the JCC) has a mod banned a user because they had a build up of minor offenses. The user obviously doesn't know that's why, then after 3 days of me having to listen to them whine and moan about why were they banned, MS is full of incompetant mods, blah blah blah... basically there's a one way communication with MS. Yes, users can send messages to the mods. That's ideal. But realistically, the people getting banned have tempers and I've so often seen a good deal of them refuse to send in an unban request asking why they were banned. More likely, they'll harass the mods via AIM.

    Now I don't know if MS itself is going to think this is an issue. To me, I see it as a small flaw in the system, and one that contributes to a negative reputation of MS, which it really doesn't deserve. And that kind of stuff only provokes problem users to misbehave more. SO. There are a few things that could be done.

    In the event that a user DOES send in an unban request asking why they were banned - improve the explainations. I've had an extensive history of bans from my angsty preteen years, and I always sent in unban requests asking - but I rarely received thorough explanations. Usually just a couple of sentences. Some users (not naming names) have repeated offenses, and never seem to understand WHY they're banned, even after receiving explanations, thus contributing again to the problem above. In these cases, I would think citing line by line where the user went wrong. Basically, thoroughly explain what happened, less of "Well you flamed so and so, that's banworthy". Yes, I know that's tedious, but it would improve a LOT.

    Now for those who don't sent in unban requests, I'm really not sure. The issue here is that there's a lot of options for users to communicate to MS, but there isn't enough communication coming from MS itself.


    Anyways, that's my rant. I'll probably regret posting it 5 minutes from now. FTR, I'm not dissing MS by any of this, take no personal offense please.
  14. Slowburn Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2010
    star 4
    Which probably hasn't been very much, has it? If all users are met with this kind of hostility, I can understand why they don't even bother. And I have just given you a suggestion, multiple ones actually, and they are all shrugged away immediately. It has been thought out, and no matter how you spin the facts I will not be convinced that there is only one way to run a message board. Your excuses are irrelevant and I am not on trial here, it is the current bureaucracy (as you so skillfully put it). But you've established your case (aka "we're not listening") and I have established mine (aka "shouldn't they listen?").

    I proclaim injustice when I see it, that is my right as a member of these forums, though I'm starting to see that critique isn't very appreciated by those in power. Oh well, it rarely is. And I'm sure a lot of mods do the best they can and I'm sure they're decent enough people, but they're still part of this closed-off box leadership. The ways that I have been told that users get a say on these forums is minimal at best. It's through the cracks of a cage. How would I not get upset about this? Internet or not, this is a grouping of intelligent people and I'm just saying that keeping the dirty people away isn't a very good way to run the boards.
  15. Sith-Lord-Gunray Ex-Mod

    Member Since:
    Aug 20, 2003
    star 7

    I think the problem is that the way you're stating this is a big generalization. If there was a specific issue you were talking about, or something like that, it would be clearer.
  16. Slowburn Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2010
    star 4
    The specific issue is the overall system of control of the JC. I feel that this has been made clear.
  17. Rox Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 24, 2000
    star 6
    I'm gonna pull on old one but a good one. This is a private message board and the people who run it will run it how they want to do so. Over the last ten years people have used the Comms board to relay how they feel and what they would like to see changed. A lot of good has come out of this board, all brought up by the user base. Countless times this has been brought up and the mods will take what you have to say and weigh it against the current process. Again you have to remember this is not a democracy, it's a internet message board where the people in charge make the rules, not the people.
  18. Sith-Lord-Gunray Ex-Mod

    Member Since:
    Aug 20, 2003
    star 7
    Ok Slowburn is slowly burning this thread, can someone lock it up?
  19. Katya Jade Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2002
    star 7
    Personally, I believe 'problem users' are a problem for a reason. Those are the people I was referring to in my earlier post where I mentioned they most likely know why they were banned. Whenever I banned a problem user, they knew exactly why I banned them and, really, there were very rarely hard feelings between us afterwards. They understood my 'job' and knew they were pushing the boundaries because I carried on PM conversations with them about the issue. Now, that said, I went out of my way to have open communication with people so that they knew the boundaries. I think that's a big part of modding.

    This is really the most important point here. I really feel that in the day to day, it's important that mods let people know if they're skirting the boundaries. Warnings, if you will, or just letting them know that what they're posting could lead to a ban. That way, if the person does get banned, they knew it was coming and chose not to alter their posting.

    I have no idea if it even exists anymore, but the best tool I found for communication was a thread in the JCC Mod Squad to discuss problem users and/or bannings. I always felt it was important that the mods talked amongst themselves so that all of us knew what each other was doing, who we were warning, problems, etc. It's not only important to keep lines of communication open between users/mods but between mods themselves.

    Slowburn, like SLG said, you're making pretty sweeping generalizations here. Five years ago, there was a ton of drama, lots of traffic and this forum was a hotbed of threads discussing various issues. Now, things have settled down and, as far as I can see, the users and administration get along pretty darn well. Sure, there will always be issues from time to time, but, overall, this place runs more smoothly than it has in a long time. Talking about injustice and the heavy handed mods feels pretty much like you're throwing things out there to cause some sort of drama rather than basing this on any concrete issue. So if you have a specific problem, fine, bring it up to be addressed either here or via PM's, but please stop alleging that the MS is some big bad, power hungry gang wanting to 'squash the little people.'
  20. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    What you're saying in theory has its merits, but as you noted, elections happen everyday and I'll even go so far as to say that even in a "democracy", everyone isn't represented. The "election" system was approached once, if I remember correctly and it was a complete and utter disaster. I know a few people here that still shudder when it's mentioned.

    What's in place now is actually as close as you can get to fair "representation" here (as far as a message board goes), in my opinion. Members are encouraged to suggest candidates for moderator, there's system in place for feedback and suggestions (we're posting in it right now), and there has to be a vote by those selected as moderator to elect other moderators. As well as the moderator complaint process, forum feedback and other things, there have been plenty of rules changed or revised due to feedback here, if they prove worthy of it.

    Here in the US, we don't get to vote on each individual item that comes across a Senator's agenda. Just like we don't elect those that serve us daily like police, firemen, doctors, etc. There's just no way that every individual can be accomodated all the time.
  21. Yodasbadgirl1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2009
    star 5
    We have our say in a pm. The mod does the same.Put the appeals in a thread, so the public can read it. The ban still is in place but the appeal is done in the open not behind closed doors. The public don't need to vote but at least they will know why the person did to get the ban. Maybe it would prevent others from making the same mistakes.I don't know if you can lock a thread so only two people can use it, but it's an idea.

    No good comes from the closed door approach.
  22. Grimby Technical Consultant

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2000
    star 7
    So what you're saying is that you want a public record of all evidence related to a user being banned? You know, somehow I don't think that would work.

    If you want to discuss a certain issue, this forum is definitely the place you can do that. But stick to the issue and not a specific user or case. We do not discuss details of any ban in public and we never will. That discussion is reserved strictly for the user and the administration to share in confidence.
  23. Slowburn Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2010
    star 4
    Somehow I knew you were going to say that. [face_laugh]
  24. Grimby Technical Consultant

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2000
    star 7
    Yeah, it's kind of in the rules. ;)
  25. Slowburn Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2010
    star 4
    Trust me, I'm more than familiar with your rules by now.
Moderators: JoinTheSchwarz, LAJ_FETT, Ramza
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.