TRIALS.

Discussion in 'Communications' started by Sith-Lord-Gunray, May 21, 2010.

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Moderators: JoinTheSchwarz, LAJ_FETT, Ramza
  1. Qui-Gon_Reborn Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Dec 11, 2008
    star 6
    Slowburn, rather than making the assumption that we're reading what you have to say in congruence to a specific mindset, perhaps you should endeavor to think critically about what we're saying to you. I actually want to know what you're suggesting we improve upon; we all do, or this forum wouldn't even exist. There is not one other message board that I frequent, (and I frequent quite a few, probably too many for my personal health) that contains a forum where any and all users can comment on the administration of the forum. So, yes, we obviously want to hear what you have to say.

    That said...what are you saying? That we don't like you? You guys are not "our people." We're not monarchs. We're here for the exact same reason you are, except we're responsible for making sure the forums run as smoothly as possible. If that means stepping on a few toes, so be it. If that means hurting a few feelings, so be it. What do you want us to do? Stop banning people? Let the users vote on who is banned and who isn't? What, exactly, do you suggest? Because, so far, you haven't suggested anything.
  2. Rogue...Jedi Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 12, 2000
    star 7
    To be fair, I've seen a few others. They don't seem to have as much activity as this forum, or implement suggestions as frequently, though.
  3. Qui-Gon_Reborn Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Dec 11, 2008
    star 6
    Yeah, I can see how that would be. That's good to know that this kind of forum is being implemented elsewhere, though. Or at least attempted.
  4. Slowburn Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2010
    star 4
    When did I say this? I was clearly referring to board decisions with the latter part of my last post, aka letting the average user get involved. If you have read anything I have said, which I'm not quite sure you have, I have said "bans are necessary". Now you've arranged for several more of your dogs to back you up on a statement that has not even been said.

    I'm starting to pick up that this is how things are done here; anyone who makes suggestions are dissected by the ever-faithful backup crew until they simply give up or are banned. My suggestions are not cryptic, and if they were read with individual eyes instead of collective ones I think this would go a lot farther.
  5. Qui-Gon_Reborn Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Dec 11, 2008
    star 6
    If you will permit one of the "dogs" to make a suggestion -- please make a summary of what you're putting forth. Because we literally don't understand what you're saying. At least, I don't.
  6. Slowburn Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2010
    star 4
    Then none of you do. This collective mind has prevented this thread from accomplishing anything from the beginning. I have stated my case a million times and will not again.
  7. Yodasbadgirl1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2009
    star 5
  8. Sith-Lord-Gunray Ex-Mod

    Member Since:
    Aug 20, 2003
    star 7
    *oops editing this then*

    My suggestion is going to sound boring and dull and a repeat, but really it is true. Read this section. It's there for a reason, and it explains everything about any choice the mods would make in regards to users. It may not make sense personally to you, but consider the whole of the forums and all the situations that the mods have to deal with.
  9. Qui-Gon_Reborn Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Dec 11, 2008
    star 6
    Watch this, Slowburn. I'm going to take the thesis from each and every post you've made in this thread.

    The quick-trigger calls of the former do seem a little like an unquestionable dictatorship, and I think the normal users should have a little more say over that.

    A say over what? Please expand on this.

    I suggest that the ban page (if you will) dispenses with unban requests and gives the banned member a little more of an option, like "Contact Administrator" and "Contact Banning Mod" or something to that effect.

    This was addressed. You have the ability to PM an admin, manager, or your banning mod at any time during the duration of your ban. And before you're banned, if you have any questions. And after, if you still have more questions.

    These boards have a lot going for them but they are big on numbing things that are commonplace on other corners of the web. This would be a very sad world if no one questioned anything, including the current board banning system. It's healthy, if anything.

    Numbing what? Please expand on this.

    Some are grandfathered into the elite group of totalitarians while others aren't, but I'm sure they still care about this place as much as those of us who are new here, but their voices would probably fall on equally deaf ears. That just isn't right.

    Still no specifics. Beginning to see a pattern, here?

    This closed-doors gifted-only process isn't reassuring and does not give anyone a say.

    A say about what? Please expand on this.

    I proclaim injustice when I see it, that is my right as a member of these forums, though I'm starting to see that critique isn't very appreciated by those in power. Oh well, it rarely is.

    We've gone through four pages of this thread trying to understand what you're proposing, discuss the OP's premise, and address any issues you may have.

    I'm questioning the system for the sake of improvement.

    What, precisely, do you want improved?

    I am saying the same things over and over because it is being ignored just as often. The problem with the board is the administration itself; it is completely disconnected from the rest of us.

    I believe the only thing that's disconnected, in this situation, is your flow of ideas, which I'm greatly interested in hearing, but which simply don't make any sense.

    As I have previously said multiple times, if the board took on certain tiers of democracy then this would be solved. THAT is what I am suggesting. If you do not understand, you choose not to.

    Then what, specifically, do you want us to do?

    Slowburn, I'm giving you the courtesy of attempted understanding because you've come to be regular in a forum I care very much about. But you have graced me, and my fellow mods, with nothing but vague inconsistancies. We appreciate and welcome all feedback and discussion about our administration, because we're only human, and we love to get all the help we possibly can, but if you can't contribute to this original discussion without resorting to empty assumptions and circular logic, then we can't listen to you, because we can't understand you. Furthermore, it's disrespectful and unfair to SLG to stop concentrating on the main point of this thread. So, if I may, I request that you either summarize exactly what you're saying, or just accept the fact that we're just not going to get it.
  10. Rogue...Jedi Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 12, 2000
    star 7
    If you think MS is a collective mind and mods always agree with each other, then clearly you have no idea how things go around here. Perhaps once you've been around longer, you'll see what we're talking about. Mods frequently and openly disagree with each other. Happens all the time. Look through other threads in this forum if you like - there are examples galore.

    You've vaguely stated some general ideas a million times, but every time you've been asked to be specific or clarify your statement, you've just repeated yourself, without any specifics or clarity. That's not helping us.
  11. Yodasbadgirl1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2009
    star 5
    If you have a problem, please PM a moderator. RJ instructed you to do so, earlier in this thread.
  12. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    Eighty five posts? Seriously?

    Folks, this and so many other issues have been settled for years now. For those few who are new to these discussions, old discussions on bannings and related matters go back a decade here in Communications. There have been changes made over time, but all of those led to what we have now. At this point in the JC's life cycle (very late in life, to put it charitably), there's not much change on the way, other than changing board systems, which is just a technical issue.

    Just about everything worth discussing has long since been settled.
  13. Lowbacca_1977 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2006
    star 6
    It's probably worth highlighting that being a moderator isn't something handed out to people the way something like cabinet appointments or something occur, where a group of people just spread out to moderate all the sections of the board here.
    Instead, the moderators of each section are found by looking at the active posters in the board that they're being considered to moderate. Even though I'm a moderator, unless I go through a radical change in posting habits, I'm never going to even be considered to moderate the Role Playing or Fan Fiction sections, for example, because I'm not in either one of those sections of the boards. And when I became a moderator, I really didn't know moderators for other sections simply because I wasn't posting in other areas. The selection process is somewhat backwards from it being 'a circle of friends'.
  14. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    It's very easy to make a sweeping generalization and cast aspersions about being treated unfairly. It's a lot harder to actually work with people to solve problems--and when I say "work with," I mean just that. There are complaints about dictatorship and that sort of thing, yet the complaints seem to mostly be that our system isn't exactly how certain individuals would want it. How's that for a double standard, then?

    The system already exists. It's not starting from scratch, simply by virtue of that. Therefore, if someone wants to propose changes, they have to address specific problems and provide specific solutions--while being receptive to explanations on why things work a certain way. It's not sufficient just to complain that there's already a system in place, or that one wasn't privy to how it was constructed. There isn't a single person in Mod Squad that was in power when most of these rules were developed--we've all had to live by them and understand them--but then, equally, many rules have changed in the years since I've been a mod, too.

    So drop the persecution complex. The complaints ring hollow when this thread's still here, and mod after mod--and user after user--has come in and asked just exactly what you mean. You don't expect for everyone, either, so don't express outrage on behalf of a userbase that has better relations with the Mod Squad than it has in years.

    You represent just yourselves. And that's fine--that this thread is still going is a sign that we're receptive to individual complaints. But it's really not much of a discussion unless people are willing to both listen and speak.
  15. Dingo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2001
    star 5
    I am about to do this in a fashion that I hate, but to try and ensure this is as unambiguous as possible I'll do it this way. I worry about the appearance of a 'gang-up', but considering all users have the right to have their say, I welcome all users of whatever status to have their say no matter how it may appear if done so correctly. Also, QGR has done this in a fashion, but since some of this was direct specifically towards me I reserve the right of reply.

    Hostility: With nearly 95% of posts that I have made here in Comms it has been done so in a tone-neutral form. For text-only communications it is paramount to ensure the correct conveyance of ideas that this be upheld to avoid any misunderstanding. If you are reading any hostility into what I am writing, then it is not from my end that this comes from. With over 10 years of experience here in Comms, and nearly 8 of those as a general user and not a moderator or administrator the cultivation of this in communicating here has proven to be more effectual that posting with a specific tone to the text being written.

    Changes that have occurred due to the user discussions in Comms: 3 separate alterations to the fashion in which the administration was structured (more managers; a group of administrators; specified roles and structure to the administrators), expansion of the forums on 5 separate occasions, better relations between the administration and user-base, resurrection of the Advisory Council, creation of User Groups, the uncovering of sexual harassment by a former member of the administration, the realignment and redirection of the way in which the JCC operates on numerous occasions, alterations to the fashion in which users and SW celebrities interact, greater participation of the userbase in the process of selecting moderators, alterations to the way in which SW movie spoilers were handled to better protect those that wished to remain spoiler-free, establishing the boundaries of where off-board actions can have an impact on these forums, improvements to the relations between the communities of various forums, and a lot more.

    Forum bureaucracy: Yes, there are a multiplicity of ways in which a message board forum can be run. But just like there is no one specific fit for all countries, there is no one fit for all forums. Each will have specific needs and foibles that dictate the way in which it can function the most efficiently.



    Now: "And I have just given you a suggestion, multiple ones actually, and they are all shrugged away immediately. It has been thought out, and no matter how you spin the facts I will not be convinced that there is only one way to run a message board."

  16. Katya Jade Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2002
    star 7
    HI!
  17. Everton Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 18, 2003
    star 10



    ... ... ... ... ...

    I think this thread qualifies as nostalgia.
  18. Everton Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 18, 2003
    star 10
    Well, Slowburn isn't going to step into the light, and I'm not sure who else is out there with him. :p

    Minor stuff as and when, sure. But this thread is about big issues - mod appointments and ban etiquette - things with no mileage left in them. I actually think the unity of opinion (save one voice) across the thread demonstrates that quite nicely.
  19. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2000
    star 6
    Can we have SHOW trials?:p

    Like, if anyone is up for long-term or perm-banning let's make a big public to-do about it. Instead of just sweeping them under the rug let's give them the option to have their user notes brought into the open and allow regular users to vote on whether to give the person one last chance.


    Yes, I know this is a bad idea. But it's also kind of a fun one.
  20. Sith-Lord-Gunray Ex-Mod

    Member Since:
    Aug 20, 2003
    star 7
    You mean like reality tv scandals?
  21. FlareStorm Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2000
    star 6
    Many many other boards have a read-only forum where the admins post who was banned and why. I don't think its such a bad idea...it promotes knowledge of the rules, lets people know where the heck a person has disappeared to and when they can be expected back (if at all), lets users know they are being watched, and is interesting/amusing to read.

    NOT recommending that here without some heavy consideration and tweaking, so simmer down. Just sharing my e-knowledge. I've found the uber-secrecy here about bans here getting silly in recent times.
  22. Everton Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 18, 2003
    star 10
    Flare please stop recommending that here without serious consideration or tweaking. [face_plain]
  23. beezel26 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2003
    star 7
    first off, as a member of the judicimiary system I as a juror will let my vote count in some way but only after getting at least five jury summons in the pm box.

    Secondly,
    Usually the bans that are placed are well founded. The others are discussed and argued and the MS makes its decisions. Being banned and not having an offense against them I can say the mods do a fair bit. Most of the time. If I had to make a suggestion it would be this. If a user thinks a ban or an edit is unfair then they should have the right to argue in the banned users favor. For example a noob was being treated unfairly in the JCC and started cursing. I believe as a mod should have edited and given only a slight ban and a stearn warning to correct the user. Obviously from the thread the user was confused. It is not his fault if he doesn't know. It should be up to the moderator who banned him to give him instruction and a small banning to teach him how things are done. Does it suck that noobs are treated badly, well this is the internet, we are all guilty of it. Heck we need all the users we can get. Permabanning the noobs won't help us at all.
  24. standalone Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 15, 2009
    star 1
    Reading over this thread here's what I gather.

    There is concern over some of the moderator's actions, and suggestions have been made to try and rectify this.

    The forum staff believes the system works and only those who break the forum rules should be afraid.

    Because there isn't a lot that is out in the open the issue has cropped up numerous times in the past, and there is debate whether ideas to improve the process are dismissed out of hand.


    Now my take on it is, can the forum staff guarantee a lack of bias or error in their ways? No, of course not, I could point out something like hair trigger mods targeting a specific person as an example, but without going into detail it's simple human nature. Mistakes will be made. Sides will be taken. It's unrealistic to claim it doesn't, just the same as it's unreasonable to demand that this did not happen.

    With that said, would there be any objection to an outside review team coming onto the forums to review the issues members have with staff decisions? An independant third party, moderators and admins from IGN for instance, agree to listen to the concerns people might have, they read over the thread the problem took place and with their experience and expertise gauge how it was resolved. If the JCC do not wish to have their case notes and discussions witnessed they do not have to, the commission that is called in can base what they think of the staff's actions basedon what's on the forums.

    To me, the benefits of such an idea are many. It's an easy way for unbiaased experts to give their stamp of approval over the handling of issues on the forum and give advice, the JCC can come to a decision of their guidance on their own accord, the staff can be as helpful as they like or have nothing to do with the process, and we get what seems to have been asked for over an extended period of time. I do not see any ways such an idea might be a problem, to paraphrase several of the mods here, only the ones who have done something wrong have reason to be afraid.
  25. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    Outside review team?

    [face_laugh]

    This place is, well, fading away. Things are set in stone, aside from changing board systems. After over ten years, there ain't nothing changing that hasn't already been settled. If new films come along, that could introduce a host of new variables, but short of that, things are the way they're going to be. Any discussion on it is entirely academic, and you can look over a decade of Communications threads to see why.
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