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CT Turning Luke to the Darkside | Rule of Two

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by jimmycrank, Jan 13, 2016.

  1. jimmycrank

    jimmycrank Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 29, 2015
    We know the Rule of 2, Vader and The Emperor know the rule of two.

    So when Vader and Palpatine agree to turn Luke to the Darkside, Do they know / think that one of them must die for Luke to join the Dark side?

    Vader admits to Luke that if he joins him they could overthrow Palpatine and at the end of RotJ Palpatine commands Luke to strike Vader down and to take his Father's place at his side.

    But they must've known that the other would want to kill them when Luke Joins. This must have been an difficult Situation! Perhaps a factor in the downfall of the Sith / Vader's turn to the lightside
     
  2. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Yeah, they know, and they both expect the other one to be killed.

    That said, I'm not sure how much bearing the Rule of Two has in the Disney canon.
     
  3. jimmycrank

    jimmycrank Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 29, 2015

    Well we know Ren isn't a Sith (at least currently) and we're not sure Snoke is. So it may not have any bearing in the new movies at least.
     
  4. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Openly, Luke is seen as an asset. Secretly, both of them see him as the next Sith apprentice.

    The Sith master always expects the apprentice to conspire against him. With or without help.
     
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  5. CaptainHamYoyo

    CaptainHamYoyo Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Aug 18, 2011
    Maybe the plan they had for Luke "together" was for him to be a Darkside user, but not a Sith apprentice(like Asaaj Ventress, or the Inquisitors, etc). Of course secretly they were planning on using Luke to help kill the other and making him a Sith. But the official plan they had together was otherwise.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  6. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2005
    They both knew. The entire point was that both Sidious and Vader were plotting against each other and using Luke as a catalyst. For Sidious, Vader must die and Luke becomes his new apprentice. For Vader, Sidious must die and he becomes master over his new apprentice, Luke.

    Treachery is the way of the Sith, as they used to say.
     
  7. Drewdude91

    Drewdude91 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    May 21, 2011
    That's the thing about the OT. The PT was not yet established, and thus no Rule of Two existed when ROTJ was created.
     
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  8. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    The Rule of Two was created based off of what happened in TESB and ROTJ.

    Anyway, it is in play in the OT.

    "At this point, Vader’s plan really, now that he knows he’s his son, is to convince him to come with him. Join the dark side and together they’re going to overthrow the Emperor, which is the thematic devices used through the whole movies in terms of the Sith, which is Sith Lords are usually no more than two because if there are three, then two of them will gang up on one to try to become the dominate Sith. Anakin would have been able to do it if he hadn’t been debilitated and now he’s half machine and half man, so he’s lost a lot of the power of the Force, and he’s lost a lot of his ability to be more powerful then the Emperor. But Luke hasn’t. Luke is Vader’s hope. His motives at this point are purely evil. He simply wants to continue on what he was doing before which is get rid of the Emperor and make himself Emperor. He only sees his son as a mechanism for the ambition. His mad lust of power."

    --George Lucas, TESB DVD Commentary.

    "And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

    "The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; which actually there is something that in the next film is how Anakin becomes his apprentice."

    --George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.
     
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  9. MauiMisfit

    MauiMisfit Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 29, 2015
    The Rule of Two is shoehorned and retconned into the OT.

    It wasn't part of the original thought because both Sidious and Vader thought that Luke would be an asset -- not that he would kill one or the other (although, Vader obviously had designs).

    I don't care how many commentaries Lucas has - the OT did not have any concept of this rule. Nor should it. It is a foolish rule and Disney seems very keen on moving forward without it.
     
  10. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Again, re-watch both films. Vader wants to destroy Palpatine with Luke's help and Palpatine tells Luke to kill Vader. Lucas was laying the foundations in those films. And yes, it makes sense for their to be two, because of what happened in the films.

    "One of the themes throughout the films is that the Sith Lords, when they started out thousands of years ago, embraced the dark side. They were greedy and self-centered and they all wanted to take over, so they killed each other. Eventually there was only one left, and that one took on an apprentice. And for thousands of years, the master would teach the apprentice, the master would die, the apprentice would then teach another apprentice, the master, and so on. But there could never be any more than two of them, because if there were, they would try to get rid of the leader, which is exactly what Vader was trying to do, and that's exactly what the Emperor was trying to do. The Emperor was trying to get rid of Vader, and Vader was trying to get rid of the Emperor. And that is the antithesis of a symbiotic relationship, in which if you do that, you become cancer, and you eventually kill the host, and everything dies."

    --George Lucas, Bill Moyers Time Magazine Interview; 1999.


    The Sith are the natural enemy of the Jedi. As George Lucas describes it, the Sith were once in control of the galaxy 1000 years in the past. Unfortunately, the Sith's hunger for conquest got the better of them-so many Sith lords were vying for ultimate control that it led to infighting among their ranks. Such internecine struggles were exploited by the Jedi Knights of the era, and they were able to turn the tide and defeat the Sith.

    As Ki-Adi-Mundi states in Episode I, the Sith have been extinct for a millennium; however, not all were wiped out. A surviving Sith Lord sought to rebuild the order, to retake the galaxy, and to take revenge. This Sith Lord realized the dangers of having too many in the order, so he kept his existence a secret. It would be a long time coming, but he carefully plotted revenge. There would be only two Sith Lords at a time, a master and an apprentice, working in secret, planting the seeds for their eventual rise.

    --Star Wars Insider, issue 78; page 60


    As to what's going on in TFA, there are no Sith in TFA. Snoke and Kylo Ren are the only ones in the whole film, while the Knights seen in the flashback are only in that part. But that doesn't mean that Snoke won't try to tempt Rey to kill Kylo Ren, thus leaving the two of them. Nor for Kylo to want to tempt Rey to help him kill Snoke.
     
  11. friedbantha

    friedbantha Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 26, 2015
    Uh...all of Lucas's films are canon. All of them. Abrams and others have repeatedly said they will not undue anything Lucas did.
     
  12. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I know, and I know the Rule of Two was mentioned in TPM but I was thinking it was more elaborate in the old EU.
     
  13. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Well, the EU did have a form of the Rule of Two before it was a thing. I'm not sure if it came down from Lucas or not. In the comic series, "Dark Lords Of The Sith", Aleema Keto has Ulic Qel-Droma kill her cousin Satal, so that the two of them could be in charge. Then Exar Kun tries to kill the two of them, before they're anointed as Sith Lords, with Exar as Master and Ulic as his Apprentice. In "The Sith War", Aleema leaves Ulic behind during a raid and he's captured, only to be freed by Exar later on. Later, Ulic has Aleema and Creedo killed during the assault on Ossus, through an act of betrayal. In "Golden Age Of The Sith", when the Dark Lord Marka Ragnos died, Ludo Kressh and Naga Sadow fought for control of the Sith. The two went to war with each other.

    By the time TPM came around, we had "Jedi Vs Sith" where we saw Darth Bane's origins and how it came about. But then the "Old Republic" games came out, so it was tweaked with the Bane novels, so that all of it fit together.