Discussion in 'Denver, CO' started by nnaydolem, Sep 13, 2010.
And we have our SPN thread back! Horray!
Three weeks and three days until the new season! I think I might try to have a premiere party, but it's hard when it's the middle of the week.
How did that double post happen? Hmm.
FIVE DAYS FIVE DAYS FIVE DAYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ARE YOU READY?!?!?!
6 hrs and 15min left!! (5hr15m for you lucky people who are an hr ahead for tv.)
S__C's question about pie on the show got me to thinking about the subject tangentially. I have two questions as a result. Does Sam ever successfully bring back pie for Dean? Ever? I can think of at least three instances when he didn't. One was really not his fault, but the other two...? Is it really accidental, or a very subtle sibling jab?
I think it's younger brother getting even in his own ways for older brother being a jerk.
OK! first how do we highlight to hide spoilers?
so what did we think of the Looney Toons episode?
I liked that Cas was such a big part of it. What i can't figure out, what is amanda tapping doing with him? what do you guys think?
We don't highlight anymore, we code it, like the quotes, but using "spoiler" instead.
Remove the spaces: [ spoiler ] Type spoilery thing. [ / spoiler ]
I thought it was funny.
VERY clever!!! Thanks!!!
Spoilers up through 8.08:
I honestly haven't been impressed by the whole of the season thus far. There have been moments of brilliance to be sure, but as a whole I can't help but feel the show hasn't lived up to previous levels. I think the main thing bothering me is the "Sam's year off" storyline. It just seems too out of character to me. I can believe that Sam would want to leave hunting. I can believe that Sam would leave hunting. I can believe that Sam would eventually stop trying to find Dean/find out what happened to Dean. However, what I can't believe is that Sam would do all this without first at least making some effort. The end result feels to me as though the writers decided they wanted to have a selected conflict drama, but then manufactured the situation through actions inconsistent with established characterization. And to me, not only is that poor storytelling, but it undermines the ongoing development as it is based on a poor setup. Now, it is possible that things aren't quite as they have seemed so far. I've read some theories online that maybe reality wasn't quite what Sam has related - that in fact he suffered a bit of a break from reality after Dean and Cas disappeared. It could be parallel to the way that Dean's escape from Purgatory (and Cas staying) didn't really happen the way Dean remembered. And in one of Sam's flashbacks, his girlfriend's father says "you're living in a dream world". Maybe that's a clue? That actually seems a bit more believable to me and would be an interesting twist. It's not too inconsistent with Sam's mental problems the previous year. I tend to think they won't go that way, but I wouldn't be disappointed if they do.
Having said all that, I really enjoyed last week's episode. It felt like a step back in the right direction. And Cas, of course, was brilliant. The loony-tunes concept was crazy and ludicrous, but the characters themselves admit that to be so. In fact, it was the whole point.
I'm not sure what to make of Naomi yet. On the surface, her actions would appear to be deceitful. She (or someone) has put a mind-whammy on Cas and is using him to spy on the guys. She's listening to his very thoughts. This would paint her as bad guy. However, on the flip side I was struck by her last question to Cas, when he's feeling lost and hurt: "what do you want to do?" She seemed to listen to him when he said she didn't understand, with a look silently inviting him to explain, and gave the impression she understood his feelings. It didn't change her decided course of action in the least, of course, but still, I was struck by her question to him. It almost gave me the impression she was trying to guide and help him in her own way. And yet there is a strong disparity in her statements. She says that Castiel can make things right by doing what he is told to do - the traditional attitude of Heaven - and yet ends the conversation by asking him what he wants to do - a question pertaining to free will. So overall, I am still not sure what to make of her.
And then there is the question of just who the heck is she? How is she (or they) doing this to Cas? To overpower an angel's mind (reading his thoughts, compelling him, wiping his mind) in this way can't be trivial. Is it possible because Cas was so weak after Purgatory? Or is she that powerful? It occurs to me that the storyline left the fate of Metatron somewhat open. The personal note at the end of the tablet read by Kevin implies that Metatron left. Was that left as in ceased existence? Or left as in left Heaven? Could Naomi be Metatron or someone close to him? She's in a section of heaven that apparently few angels have seen and would appear to be scary powerful. She says her name is Naomi, but if I remember correctly this is the first example of an angel name that doesn't sound very "angel-ish". Is it her real name? (Though I don't know much about the subject so I could be wrong on that point.)
What did you guys think?
I feel like there were aspects of the episode that were good, but in my opinion they're pushing the Dean vs Sam in conflict storyline too far. Obviously they can't completely mend this latest issue completely overnight, but some sort of steps in the right rather than wrong direction would be nice. How long has it been since they actually got along rather than ignoring problems and pretending to get along, or outright fighting? I watch the show for two brothers who mean everything to each other, not two guys who haven't gotten along in years.
Promo for Jan looks interesting...
IDK they have had some major conflict before, i mean SO much so sam went off on his own for awhile. I mean it's like any family, you ignore problems i guess.
QHM and i have talked about this...what about Michael in the pit...and brother dearest and i really do NOT like the fact that they are totally ignore the 'year' that DEAN took off with Lisa. [\spoiler]
I feel bad for not commenting more here, but I'm FOUR shows behind in my writeups for Sequential Tart. :/ I do feel like this season knows where it's going, unlike last season, which kind of meandered a bit.
Dean is being a total tool, though. Spoofing a text from Amelia? He needs a 2x4 to the face.
Are you referring to the fact that Dean didn't get Sam out of the Pit during that year with Lisa? Or just the year off itself?
There are certainly some parallels there. I'm not so bothered by either of them taking time off of hunting to be honest. It's realistic, I think. It's the personal family situation that gets me. Between the two situations, the big difference to me is that while Dean didn't hunt during that time, he also didn't give up the idea of getting Sam out. He didn't know how to do it, didn't get anywhere on it, but even though he also had the 'normal life' he didn't give up looking for a way to save Sam. If they showed Sam trying to figure out what happened to Dean, even if completely unsuccessful, I would have been satisfied with his time off. It's the apparent complete lack of trying that seems out of character to me.
It's true that families always have problems, and if an average person can be good at ignoring them, Winchesters have it down to an art. I guess for me it's just been too much, too long and without any positive caring interaction to balance it out. I mean, even a "I hate all of this, but you're my brother" would help. There were really bad times between them in seasons 4 and 5. They split up how many times? But even when it was really bad, at the end of it they showed that they cared about each other even if they can't always admit it, and this was what brought them back together. Now though, they're missing that. To me it feels like they're sticking together because they're obligated and because its necessary for the job. Not because they want to, not because they're brothers who would do anything for each other. It makes me sad. Last year a friend of mine started watching the show, and to sum up the main theme of the entire thing for her, I said the story was about the importance of family. Maybe it's just the writing, and I can hope they're headed towards fixing it at some point. It also brings to mind that scene from French Mistake where one guy suggests cutting out the scene where the boys sit on the hood of the Impala and talk about their feelings and the producer laughs and says 'yeah, and you can answer the fan hate mail' or something to that effect.
I can see all of those points. and just the year off itself...Dean didn't TRY to get Sam out of the pit, he left hunting completely. and now Dean gives Sam so much grief about not trying to find him. Just seems a little double-sided AND Sam never brings it up. HELLO he was in HELL! that wasn't for you that was for Dean. because if you recall Sam did everything he could to get Dean out of hell when he was there....
so what do you think about Bennie taking a bite out of that guy? PERSONALLY i think he deserved it....i just hope it doesn't start a spiral.
and i like bennie a lot.
I think the guy had it coming, like Dean said. (But then there's Amy, who didn't have it coming, and Dean killed her anyway.) The guy was warned away, and he used a human as bait and brought it on himself. Bennie was basically using his weapons at hand (vampires are always armed, as Spike once said) to defend himself and an innocent person. The problem is if it starts a bloodlust and Bennie loses control -- which by all indicators is not hard to lose (witness his reaction to Dean's blood -- quick-healing neck you have, there, Dean -- and his granddaughter's blood).
Dean's perpetual double-standard is really annoying me. If Sam didn't feel so guilty over things so easily, he'd lay him out. The boys are alienated from each other because Dean's not listening when Sam is attempting to communnicate. Whether Dean's POed that Sam left hunting, or didn't look for him, or whatever (Sam basically had a nervous breakdown that was two seasons coming, and he lost *everyone* -- really, he can take some time for himself), he's not paying attention to Sam as a person at all. So what if there was a girl? Dean had Lisa. So what if Sam tried for a normal life? So did Dean, and he didn't look for Sam, or he would have found him. I'm really rather hacked off at Dean. The only thing he sould have been mad about was Sam dumping his phones (and that Sam did this, and was so obviously *freaked out* over hitting the dog, says to me that he did indeed have a nervous breakdown).
I had a convo on FB with a Tart about the most recent episode. It mostly involved coded responses to avoid spoilers and lots of capital letters and emotional whiplash. Some of this will probably end up in my Tart writeups. LOL.
Hm. Actually, Dean did try to look for Sam during that year. At least, that's what Dean said and I don't think we have reason to think he's lying in this case. From 6.01:
Dean: I showed up on their doorstep half out of my head with grief. God knows why they even let me in. I drank too much. I had nightmares. I looked everywhere, I collected hundreds of books, trying to find anything to bust you out.
Sam: You promised you'd leave it alone.
Dean: Of course I didn't leave it alone! Sue me!
Dean didn't succeed, of course. He probably didn't even find anything promising enough to move beyond research into practice. But he tried to the best extent that he was able. So in this one aspect, I don't think it's entirely a double standard. From what we've been told so far, it sounds as though Sam didn't even try to look for him. And that's the part that bugs me, because I don't think that is in character at all. Everything we know of Sam previously says that he should have tried something, even if it was a complete failure. I'm bugged because it feels like the writers are breaking out of character continuity for the sake of manufacturing drama. If Sam did have a complete nervous breakdown, otoh, that would be a reasonable explanation for the disparity. There are some hints that this may be the case, so I hope that is where they are going with this. I think they need to explicitly lay it out if this is the case, though. Don't leave it merely implied.Otherwise the idea is just fan conjecture.
It is fair to say that Dean isn't listening to Sam. It's convoluted, though. Let's assume for the moment that Sam did suffer a major breakdown. It would be nice if Dean would pick up on the hints Sam has dropped, put it together and figure out that there's something more going on than Sam has said. One aspect of their job is detective, after all, yet Dean isn't piecing together clues in a case where he should have a distinct advantage (ie he knows Sam well). On the flip side, Sam could come out and just tell Dean, but he hasn't. But of course, Dean, with all of his own issues and attitude, isn't making it any easier to come out and tell him. Who is more at fault, the person who knows but doesn't say anything, or the person who should be able to put together the clues and figure it out but doesn't? *shrug* It's probably some of both. Certainly Dean shouldn't be taking Sam to task for stopping general hunting for a year or the girlfriend. I suspect that those aren't the real issues, though. But again, I think the writers would need to have this stated more explicitly.
I just hope that this is all going to come together for a reasonable payoff and conclusion at some point.
It occurs to me...
Remember the mental institute episode from season 5? At the end, Sam tried to talk to Dean about having trouble coping, but Dean refused to allow it. Dean said the only course of action is to bury all the crap and keep going. Now, 3 seasons later... if Sam did have a mental breakdown, looking back on this it is easy to see how he wouldn't feel able to talk to Dean about it. Dean was ok with the mental problems when it was external, ie Sam's wall coming down. But regular emotional stress overload? Not so much. (Probably because he'd then have to consider the load he carries.)
Actually, I just rewatched 8.06, and when Sam went back to Amelia's the day after they fell into bed, Sam said, "It felt like my world imploded and came raining down on me, and I ran." I think that, plus the actions we've witnessed (turning off his phones, his reaction to hitting the dog, his telling Amelia that she "saved" him) are about as close as we're going to get to Sam talking about what happened to him and his mind after Dean disappeared -- and you're right: I don't think he'd tell Dean much more than has already been said, specifically because of Dean's reactions in the past.
I did forget about Dean saying he looked in books, etc. At least he knew where Sam was, though. I don't think Sam knew where to even start looking for Dean. That, on top of his promise to not go looking for Dean, and I can understand why he just bolted. Dean also had a soft spot to land with Lisa. Sam didn't have that until he found Amelia, completly by accident. Uhm, by accidentally hitting a dog.
Now I need to rewatch three more and write them up before I leave on Saturday, on top of making at least one necklace and two bracelets.
New episode tonight! I haven't seen the preview but I do know who the guest start is, so it should be a fun one!