Discussion in 'Archive: SF&F: Books and Comics' started by mara_jade_rox, Apr 21, 2008.
I just got home from the bookstore. We had about 600 people. It was a lot of fun!
In my tiny little german bookstore.
I'm not happy right now.
I'm getting it from the library, but I'm number 242 on the list, so I doubt I'll get it before college.
So no feedback yet. My wife said that it was exceptionally weird and the least of all the novels.
I started reading it just a few minutes ago. I'll deifnately post feedback when I'm done.
After reading reviews, saying the book sucked ... well, I hope it won't.
I finished it in two sittings, broken up by an unfortunate need for sleep.
I think that it's the best overall of the four, though as a piece of craft it's inferior to the first book. The first book stood on its own, told a complete story in of itself. This book really feels like it's built on what came before. The second and third books are forgettable overall. I honestly think that someone could go straight from book 1 to book 4 and not feel too lost.
I was rather pleased that one major plot point occured within the first half of the book. Very pleased indeed.
50% of shippers will be disapointed. But that was a given, no matter what Bella did.
So I just got done with the first part of the book and it was cute.
I feel sorry for Jacob, though. I mean, he's supposed to be Bella's friend -- why not accept her decision?
Anyway, Edward and Bella off to Isle Esme was nice.
Especially when night came and he bit into the pillows. That just cracked me up.
Bella too much for you, Edward? And then the headboard? LOL
The few revies I've read from fans kept saying something about Bella's pregnancy and how it doesn't make sense because Vampires can't procreate.
Well, different Vampire universe, imo. I think it really does make sense.
Just as Bella put it: how would the male Vampires know if they could father children, if they've never tried it with a human before?
The little nudger, as Bella put it. Too cute.
Edward seems to be freaking out though. And saying they'll get rid of it?
I would have slapped him if I were Bella.
So far I think it's great. Now off to read Book 2 from Jacob's POV.
My favorite part is from 348 to 524. One character goes through some major life changing events in that span, and those pages cover how that person deals with it. It's pure character building, and while some moments don't hit as well as I'd like, others are just about perfect.
Basically, the transformation of Bella into a vampire. Throughout the series, we've gotten her on the outside looking in. Obviously comfortable with them around her, as much as a human can be comfortable. But it's something else to see her on the inside, to see her become a vampire and to get that perspective. Her growth and training, her joy at her newfound strength and her new confidence in herself, those were all a pleasure to read. The actual transformation process was very well handled, every bit as nasty as promised.
I would have liked to see more time spent with regular humans, after Bella became a vampire. There were some great scenes when she goes to town to get some fake IDs, seeing how people react to her. Too short though. And while her father obviously can figure out a fair amount about what she now is, I really wish that he'd been given the full story. Given how closely they're associated with the wolves, given his relationship with a member of that group, I would think that the usual caveats don't really apply so clearly. I would have loved a Bella scene with Charlie where she tells him outright what's going on, rather than the many subtle indications. And I would have loved more about a degree of alienation from humanity, the knowledge that she can no longer just walk down a busy city street - she'd cause a car accident, and not due to being clumsy herself. Whenever I think about vampire stories of becoming vampires, the scene that I always come back to is in the book Interview with the Vampire, where Louis sees his aged sister leaving flowers on his grave, decades after his "death." I'm not asking for a reproduction of that scene or a jump into the future, but some serious thought about how it's going to be like seeing every human she knows get old and die - Jacob included - would have been nice. There were some thoughts along those lines, but mostly only in how they affected her daughter, and one throwaway line when Jacob realized that she'd long outlive him.
Anyhow, great job overall showing Bella's change into a vampire. The climax was far less interesting.
The love scenes were a little spicier than I expected. Meyer keeps things relatively clean, leaving the really spicy stuff to imagination, but they were definitely pretty hot love scenes.
For me it was hard to get into it at first. Probably because I couldn't give it the one sitting read it deserved because of a hectic work schedule this weekend. But I did get to savor it better then just devouring it cover to cover like I usually do. At parts it felt forced but others it felt right.
For me, I really enjoyed the right after Bella became a vampire. Edward taking her hunting, and testing her to make sure she could be around Nessie. At first I was against the whole Bella being pregnant and I was so ready to be angry because I thought Bella's going to die. And Edward is going to be stuck with this kid no idea what to do. Which granted would of been funny to watch.
I didn't like seeing everyone instantly fall in love with Nessie either. I mean yeah she's a baby and that's what happens usually with babies people are close too. But...I would of loved to see more of a resistance to her. Because she is against the grain, at least some flinching on everyone's parts.
I'm sad yet glad there wasn't an all out war at the end though. And that Carslie didn't die. I kept expecting him to die. After Jacob's first setting steps on Cullen land thinking they turned Bella and her not pregnant.
And I finally understand why Myers will never write New Moon from Edwards perspective because he was going crazy without Bella and she made that apparent in BD because just the thought of her dying and watching her die was driving him insane. It was interesting how he showed that to Jacob.
What I'm wondering now is...When Nessie becomes of age and Jacob can start aging again will she be able to turn him into a vampire. Since he will no longer be a shape shifter? Or will he forever stay a shape shifter to stay with her?
I didn't even think the love scenes were spicy. *shrugs* Meyer left a whole lot to be imagined. I've read spicier, suffice it to say. But it's teeny book so it's understandable.
So, I had my first Oh-my-God moment. But not a good one.
She did not just write that...
Oh, wow...she did.
I just got done with Jacob's part. (I got up an hour ago; a whole hour earlier just to read some more ) The baby is born.
Uh...yeah, the whole birth thing was disturbing. I know they're Vampires and they have their ways but Edward biting through to get to the baby?
I got annoyed because of Jacob's whining. After three books you'd expect him to accept and be good with it. But instead he praddles on about how much he loves her, bla bla yadda yadda yadda.
Still, I like Jacob. I really enjoyed the whole new Alpha male thing. And his blond jokes.
I don't like Rosalie either, so I thought they were funny.
If I wouldn't have to get ready for work, I think I'd get the book done this morning. I'll read the rest tonight and I hope it'll get better.
The baby's name is horrible, though. Renezmee? Nessie? When I heard Nessie I couldn't help but think of the Loch Ness monster.
481-483 pretty much push the limits of what you can do in a teen novel in my opinion. Nothing is explicit, obviously. Stephenie Meyers hasn't morphed into Jacqueline Carey. But I defy anyone to show me a hotter written sex scene that'd pass muster in a teen novel. There's obviously hotter sex scenes out there - for better or for worse, I think that I was reading hotter at age 10 - but not many manage to give the impression of that much heat while keeping things PG13.
Sure, sure. It was a little spicier than I expected as well. I thought it would be bland. She did leave it to the imagination, which was kinda nice. lol So...how many times DID Em and Rose have to get a new house?
Well we know the kids won't be reading any totally trashy romance novel crap in Meyer's books.
I have to say that my beefs about the book can be summed up like this:
What kind of Utard author names a kid Renesmee?
Well, gee, the Volturi weren't such bad***es after all.
Can we stop making me think that Jacob is a dork who deserves to have a Mary Sue imprint named Renesmee?
Enough, Steph. We get that they have sex. Lots and lots of sex.
For a full review, you can check my blog in my profile.
As names go, Renesmee is really no worse than the likes of Dumbledore, Frodo, and others.
Dumbledore is Old English. Renesmee is an 18-year-old girl's attempt to be creative and it's a revolting name made out of two great names.
That it's old English doesn't mean I don't cringe every time I read it. Then again, about 50% of the nouns in Harry Potter drive me batty. Not a fan at all of the names in that series. I agree, the name is bad. But it's not exactly the only terrible name in fantasy literature.
*sighs* I've never taken this long for a Meyer book before. I'm at page 600-something and it's so boring!
So everyone's dazzled by the little girl? Everyone? That's a little far fetched.
And now we have Super-Bella on the loose?
I am so dissapointed in this book.
And Edward -- what did she do to his character? Where's the charming Vampire we got to know in Twilight?
The ending could have been so great. Instead it's just horrible.
I am so disappointed with this book.
Yes, I'm Team Jacob. This doesn't mean I wasn't prepared for an E/B ending; in fact, I expected it. I also expected Jacob to imprint. So when I say I disliked the book, it's not because I'm a disgruntled 'shipper. It's because the book was 800 pages of opulent froth interspersed with moments of demonspawn baby drama that read like The X-Files meets The OC. I suppose I shouldn't have expected anything more from this series, as it's always been heavy on the melodrama, but somehow I can't wrap my mind around the more bizarre plot twists.
And don't even get me started on Bella the Supreme Mary Sue.
On the bright side, I loved Jacob's narration, and Leah really developed as a character. Not so crazy about the fact that the wolfpack splintered (and I thought Sam's portrayal was a little off throughout), but Jacob's pack was fun to read about.
Meyers books have all been heavy on melodrama. This was par for the course that way.
Bella becoming Super Bella definitely happened. And I'm glad ? and somewhat surprised ? it happened as it did. Meyer has a tendency to write female leads (first Bella, then Wanderer) who essentially rely on the strengths of others, and who are loved for some obscure reason by people who are strong. For the most part, their own greatest strength is to ensure what's thrown at them. Wanderer starts towards being self-sufficient by the end of The Host, when she leads the raid to get medicine. But even what's essentially the climax to The Host, Wanda just reaches a point where she decides she can't ensure any more, and stops. When her own strength fails her, it's the strength of others that support her.
Through 3.5 books, Bella relied on the strengths of others. She could and did endure, and similar to Wanda, she reached a point where she couldn't endure any more. And similar to Wanda, in her moment of greatest weakness it was her friends that held on to her and wouldn't let her die. With Bella becoming a Vampire herself though, she was no longer the weak one. The stretch of pages from the time she becomes a Vampire until she starts talking about the threads of her life are some of the best part of the series. For the entire series up to that point, Bella has needed someone else to look after her. Finally, she's free of that. She's the strong one. I like that section because I like reveling with Bella in her newfound strength. It's Clark Kent discovering he can fly, Hal Jordon finding the power ring, Wally West cutting loose and seeing just how fast he can go, that sort of moment.
Bella bringing down her first meal is a scene of beauty. The prey has become the alpha predator. The angst is gone, the worry is gone, the fear is gone, and Bella shines brighter for it. The ugly duckling is a beautiful swan. That third quarter of the book is necessary to set up the final quarter, where Bella essentially pays a karmic debt: after a series about how she's prone to misfortune and danger, it's now primarily her task to protect someone who is weak. Tables are turned.
As for Nessie, I have mixed feelings. I think that Bella's narration made it pretty clear that a big reason Nessie was able to be so loved so quickly is because her mind was so clean and bright ? plus of course, she's a small child. It didn't stop being annoying that everyone loved her so much. That there were some who refused to touch her was a good touch. As for Nessie's very existence, I once again have mixed feelings. I have no problem with there being a Dhampiresa in the book, I understand that events happening as they did allowed for Meyer to give Bella a child of her own before she became a vampire. The plot of the book was also obviously driven by the origin and existence of Nessie ? without Nessie, it would have been a very different book. Would Jacob have been so likely to let Edward turn Bella? Would Jacob have gotten along as well as he did with Bella after her turn had she just let Edward turn her normally? How long would Bella have gone before turning? All sorts of fun questions.
The issue I have with Nessie is that she really is a Mary Sue. Way, way too smart and powerful for being so young. That drove me nuts. Her existence isn't a problem, her basic nature isn't a problem, that people love her isn't a problem in of itself ? it was taken to extremes a little I think, but you also have to consider that to some extent it's like a Christian human having a chance to meet the baby Jesus. You can bet that they'd give their lives to protect him. No, my problem is that she's at an age where most babies are still discovering that they have toes and she's very deliberately waving at people and reading Victorian poetry.
Drives. Me. Nuts. Even the rapid aging wasn't so bad, that she was precocious even for her apparent age was really, really annoying.
Anyways, Super Bella needed to happen. It was very important, in my opinion, for Bella to be the one t
Just finished. I read at a leisurely pace after getting the book on Sunday. It was good, but was not as good as it could've been, I feel otherwise I would've finished it Monday, probably. It didn't have me dying to turn page after page like TWILIGHT did. As Raven said, TWILIGHT is clearly superior in craft.
I have one primary gripe:
1. Things almost went too well. It took away a lot of urgency from the book and my slowest time reading the book was spent between Bella formally meeting Renesmee and Alice dropping the flowers. To a lesser extent, I had the same feeling when Edward and Bella were at Isle Esme... I was waiting impatiently for something to happen, which finally it did (the pregnancy).
I was initially disappointed with the ending (no big action sequence lol), but now that I reflect, it's growing on me. I just suppose, that as a writer, I would've had the fight anyway. Edward as well as said the Volturi would be back, in some form.... so, mechanically, just for an exciting read, why not have the right now? But, thematically, there were many reasons there was no fight in the end.... not the least of which was that the Volturi are just big cowards.
As for the name Renesmee? It is perfectly fine. There is nothing wrong with it because it's Bella's creation. It's an extension of what kinds of names she would create being the character she is. Carlie (soft C?) is also indicative of that, too. We the readers now know Bella likes cheesy combinations. So what?
I am now officially completely finished with the book.
I didn't like the ending too much. I was kind of dissapointed that the Volturi just left. And way too much talk.
BUT... Meyer's left a few unanswered questions. Maybe there'll be new books, concerning Nessie?
I can't imagine the Volturi just turning their backs on the Cullens. I'm pretty certain they'll return with some other silly reason to see Nessie.
Then there's the thing with the scientist Vampire thinking himself to be God. It's an intersting story arc.
How will Nessie fit into the normal human world? Will she be able to go to school like every other kid?
And what about Bella? I'd love to see her interaction with her old friends.
Maybe Breaking Dawn isn't truly the end just yet.
I suppose I have two opinions concerning Breaking Dawn. It was rather long and now having finished it I feel like there was a lot of info that wasn't really necessary. Jacob's part was wonderful. I feel he's grown as a character.
Edward seemed different -- maybe it was the fact that he became a father? First there's shock and fear. Fear for Bella, fear for whatever it is growing inside of her. Shock that she's pregnant, since he didn't know she could conceive from him.
Then there's desperation mixed with fear. He had no clue how to cope with this situation.
I did think it was a little exaggerated but looking back to those few pages where he has his talk with Jacob, I can acutally undersand him.
He was basically about to lose his mind due to fear, I think.
I would have liked to see more of the human world. More Charlie would have been nice too. But it seems he and Sue are getting along quite well.
Maybe the next books could deal with Nessie and Jacob? As strange as it was for him to imprint on her, I would love to read their lovestory as well.
With Edward, as the father, hovering around them. That's a funny thought.
Breaking Dawn was alright, but by far not my favorite. It lacked the Bella and Edward magic from the previous books.
The happy ending was different. Life isn't a happy ending and here everyone got what they wanted.
Well, except the Volturi.
They need to get back into the picture.
The Volturi are so intersting, Meyer could expand on them as well.
Oh and one part that made me laugh, was when Edward called Jacob son. Hadn't seen that one coming at all.
I guess we'll just have to see.
Personally, I didn't care much for the book.
I liked Bella better human. I never wanted to see her become a vampire because to me that seemed the easy solution. I didn't like Renesmee's name either. It seems really obnoxious. Jacob's perspective was really fun to read. He made me laugh with almost every thought.
My favorite scene was probably when Bella was preparing to send Renesmee of with Jacob. It was really sad. I cried when Alice left. She was always my favorite and I was disappointed to see how little Meyer used her in this novel when she had so much more potential as a character.
Hey guys. Though SW is my first love, I'm also one of the assistant admins on TwilightMOMS.com. Nice to see fellow SW fans are fans of Twilight as well.
The reaction to the 4th book is almost splitting the fandom in half. There seems to be a few fence sitters, but mostly there are about 40% who disliked it and the rest loved it. Some fans are taking extreme measures and either leaving communities or even returning their books. It's ridiculous!
Although I had a hard time swallowing BD, there were parts I loved upon my first reading and loved even more the second time around. I would never let it ruin my love for Twilight though - it just took a different path than I was expecting.
Anyway, just glad to see a Twilight thread started here.
I just sat down and reread the entire series over three days. Rereading them as a whole, the complaints about Breaking Dawn are a little easy to follow. It definitely has a much different tone than the first three books. And it's reinforced my opinion of the quality of the book.
First of all, let me say: I am really glad that the Jacob/Edward/Bella love triangle ended as it did. It was the most exhausting and annoying plotline in the second and third books. If that plot was what interested people, I can see how the end of that plotline as it did would annoy people.
That Bella and Jacob have different voices is good, a sign of good writing. Bella before and after her transformation having a distinctly different voice while remaining Bella is a sign of better writing. I've mentioned this before in a couple of different ways, but it bears repeating: Bella goes from prey to predator.
When Bella becomes a vampire, she definitely changes. She can't be clumsy as a vampire. It's not a part of what vampires are. That her mental gift and/or her mental preparation has made her somewhat ready for being a vampire mentally and skipping over the newborn stages is something that I can understand complaints about, but I have no personal problem with. Either Meyer would have had to take the route she did, or she would have had to write Bella as a crazed newborn, or she would have had to skip forward a year or so.
Getting back to Bella as a vampire: her changes are fascinating. Meyer has a hard job here to balance. Bella must still come across as Bella, but she can't be the same Bella she was as a human. Meyer solves this by stripping away Bella's insecurities. Bella is still the same person. But she no longer worries about the Jacob/Edward divide. She no longer worries about being inadequate for Edward. She no longer worries about hurting herself. She's no longer faint at the sight of blood. Where once she cringed, now she snarls.
She's exactly the same person, but has been stripped of those insecurities, and that changes the focus of the character. The underlying person has stayed the same. The focus has changed.
So I finished New Moon about five minutes ago. Twilight is better though I didn't mind New Moon. My main complaint is how Bella with Jacob in the middle sections are a less over-the-top version of Twilight mainly because Jacob is less of a naughty word than Edward. Did notice this novel felt like a 500+ page setup for Eclipse. While I don't mind some cases of teen angst I'm a little warry about Eclipse possibly having too much.
I do have to agree Bella, while a pretty good portrait of teenage girls, is rather up there with annoying protagonists. At least Meyer fixed the problem in The Host.