Twirling in Lightsabre Combat

Ophelia started an amazing thread about lightsabre combat. I'm impressed with her knowledge of swordplay. I've only studies sword/stickplay in books and a few classes, a lot of which has focused on forgotten European styles and mixed Bruce Lee style combat (my teacher's teacher was Bruce's student - and he was good). I posted this response on the END of her thread, but I feel that this is an interesting point that I have to make and I want to post it on a new thread so people can read it.

My only training in combat was a brief adventure in Philipino stick style, kali. My teacher loved it and explained to me that one of Bruce Lee's students discovered it soon after his death and incorporated it into Jeet Kune Do. I feel very, very compelled to throw my hat in this arena for the simple reason that my teacher taught me why you twirl!!!!!!

Here's the thing: a lot of people talk about how twirling is just wasted energy, but that's not always true. There were two main reasons he gave me for twirling my stick. I imagine that there are more reason that a master would use, but these are the ones that I learned:

One: if you miss your target. You take a swing at someone and you realize that it will not land so you IMMEDIATELY send your stick into a twirl. This gives you a second chance at the target and actually SAVES energy. This is because you twirl from the wrist, and so your arm moves once but your hand strikes twice! This can work with a deflected blow as well, bouncing off your opponent's weapon.

Two: fake out your opponent! Again, it's a twirl from the wrist, turning one strike into two. You take a swing and you miss or are blocked. Your opponent is safe from your attack and is free to counteratt- oh crap! Suddenly, your blocked strike has twirled into another strike to the head and you've won.

Wait, no; three: The umbrella. This is a particular move where you strike and IMMEDIATELY twist your weapon into a defensive position. This allows you to strike and IMMEDIATELY set up a defense against counterstrikes. It ALSO adds grace and momentum to your strikes - it's called an umbrella because once you've struck and turned, you are free to take the weapon behind your head and back to striking position. (Strike, extend arm; turn blade downward; rotate arm around head to striking position.)

This is why twirling can be INCREDIBLY effective, though I admit that I've yet to use it in a fight. So you can see how twirling can really, really help you REPOSITION your weapon into an advantageous position WITHOUT committing a large body or arm movement (and exposing yourself). That is to say, if you need to get your weapon here, but it's over there, twirling will get the weapon where it needs to be with a MINIMUM of effort. It also makes your strikes worth DOUBLE. An umbrella turns a strike into a block; a twirl turns your missed strike into an unexpected bonus strike. Twirling also adds flow, grace and coherency to your movements. It allows you to move around WITHOUT stopping your motion. It requires strength, torque and counter-torque and speed. But it works.

With a weapon like a lightsabre with a weightless (supposedly - I imagine it has weight or at least air resistance - but it's fake, so who knows?), twirling can give you an INSANE advantage. Note the way Anakin uses twirling in AOTC. True that this is STAGE FIGHTING and, thus, NOWHERE NEAR ACTUAL COMBAT, so his often ineffective twirls hearken to the actual techniqe that some people use.

Kali and many Philipino arts like it are VERY flow-conscious. Your strikes flow from one to the next with no jarring stops (glottals in the vocabulary of the fight) like some styles. And so Jedi fighting is a lot like it in that it's twirly, graceful, powerful and deceptive. My teacher showed me how a good knife fighter will let you parry his strike and then, with a twirl, cut your palm WIDE open. Very simple. It scared the crap outta me.

By the way, Kali is an ancient, advanced and very secret art (unlike many "secret" Japanese styles). Remember that combat is universa

 

I wouldnt look that far into it, im no sword master, but the twirling in there is there mostly for flash, and most fancy stuff is all just for show. Even though im not really a specialist in weapons, most fights are strait to the point, not really a dance, its just better to keep things plain and simple, my master has told me several times that "the knowledge of several moves is insignificant to the master of one" Of course that doesnt apply to the GFFA.

 

I learned all I know about swordfighting from movies, so it is nice to have an expert on the subject. My question is not about the twirling of swords, but the twirling of the body. When someone is fighting and they spin around, aren't they leaving themselves vulnerable or is it a good tactic?

 

is there a point to anakin's form where he raises his entire sabre over his head??? that seems to expose the rest of the whole body, or at least the legs.

 

Axle, are you referring to "Attack of the Clones", and more specifically, Anakin's duel with Dooku? If so, then it is important to understand that that particular duel was not intended to be realistic. People seem to have a very tough time grasping this for reasons I will never understand. The entire sequence between Dooku and Anakin in the Geonosis hangar is purely visual abstraction - it is a further aesthetic stylization of an already fantastical environment - "distortion" for artistic means. There isn't any logic behind it, necessarily, unless the logic is connected to Lucas' desire to explore the realm of color and tone in an abstract visual poem.

 

Axle: The overhead stance is primarily for offense-powerful overhead blows. And you can still defend from it- just how you move your arms.

 

look, i understand that it's form III and it's based for power, but it doesn't have any practical basis. perhaps this might have something to do with how they're using lightsabers and you could move them faster since they have no substance to the blades, and both users are imbued with the force. this form still seems to lack any true defensive element though. i dont know, maybe it's just me. i did like it when dooku swung his saber up in the same position to match anakin though.

 

The upper stance is a legitimate swordfighting posture as far as kendo and medieval swordfighting are consernced. It actually was very realistic. Now about the swirling thing? Swirling your sword/saber for a follow-up attack or for aquiring another stance (there are actually no defensive moves in swordfighting, only counter-attacks) is pretty realistic. Swirling your body is suicidal. It's just for spectacle.

But I must agree, the ep2 duels had a completely other purpose than giving us a crash-course in swordfighting. We should accept that at some point.

 

There isn't any logic behind it, necessarily, unless the logic is connected to Lucas' desire to explore the realm of color and tone in an abstract visual poem.

The sword fighting in SW is choreography. It's all done for artistic purposes.

Don't care who tells you otherwise, the twirl (the physical turning of the body in a complete circle) is stupid in a real fight. That's not to say that it can't be used as an element of a tactic in a larger strategy, but the penalty for turning your back far outweighs the benefit of whatever technique you want to apply at the end of it. If you get the opportunity. It's not a technique that is taught as a basic element of sword fighting curriculums because it is so easy to counter. I suppose once you get into the higher echelons of a school's training system, you might find it.

Here are two examples of the artistic use of a full turn of the body. In The Last Samurai, there's a scene where Algren and Ujio end up in a mutual "killing" when they're practicing. Both turn their backs at the same time, their backs actually roll off of each other, and then they pivot so that blades stop at each other's opponent's neck. (Ujio should have dropped and done a leg sweep. This is where the master lets his guard drop.)

No spoilers.

 

Yes, Plurimus, you are correct. However, I was citing a specific scene, not attempting to make an all-encompassing statement regarding every swordfight in the saga. There is, of course, a difference. The duel in "Attack of the Clones" between Anakin and Dooku is visual abstraction; Lucas himself admits to having referenced Scott Bartlett. It is also choreography, as you have mentioned, but not the sort that adheres to the traditional logistics of sword-fighting. Why? Because it serves a different purpose.

 

There isn't any logic behind it, necessarily, unless the logic is connected to Lucas' desire to explore the realm of color and tone in an abstract visual poem.

The duel in "Attack of the Clones" between Anakin and Dooku is visual abstraction; Lucas himself admits to having referenced Scott Bartlett.

I know you don't mean there isn't "any" logic behind it. There was an editing and aesthetic logic. Did you like this visual poem? On the face of it, it seems pretty uninteresting, especially compared to the color schema of ESB. Where is the reference to Scott Barlett?

My take on those scenes was that GL was experimenting with alternatives to a failed Yoda Dooku fight. It's clear from the DVD commentaries that there was a huge fear that Yoda would come off as slap stick. We know that GL created the "wizards duel" as a bridge between the Dooku/Anakin fight and the Yoda/Dooku fight at the end of the choreography progress, which shows the concept of the duels in AOTC were fluid.

 

Another comes from the new movie ROTS. Not an official spoiler because it's out in Hyperspace.

Seeing as how some of us aren't hyperspace members, yes it is a spoiler. Please don't use spoilers in the non spoiler threads. Thank you.

 

is there a point to anakin's form where he raises his entire sabre over his head??? that seems to expose the rest of the whole body, or at least the legs.

Have you thought that maybe he was purposely opening himself up. In fencing it's called second intention - basically you open up a target to your opponent, the idea being that they see an opening and attack it but that's exactly what you want them to do so you already have a counter ready.

 

That is absolutly right. If it ever looks like you have your guard down in a stance, it is most likly your oppenent setting you up. A lot of fencing and sword play is all about mind games.

 

is there a point to anakin's form where he raises his entire sabre over his head

This is THE most powerful fighting stance (and its variations across historical and cultural styles) for a swordsman. The sword is raised giving the sword its greatest power from both gravity and the torque of the arm's and wrist's musculature.

From this position, in one move you can hit anywhere on the body (from head to toe). A strike with such power MUST be answered with either a strong block or a retreat out of distance. (This presumes that you accurately predict where the strike will land.)

Two people with swords raised may actually kill each other if they let their swords drop without thought. That's why this attack has to be timed so that the swordsman raises his arm(s) at the end of an opponent's feint or failed attack. A slight step back or an oblique step to the side may also give the defender an opening to drop his sword on the attacker.

A thrust to the opponent who has his sword overhead has to instanteously effective in some way to prevent the opponent from dropping the sword. Effective thrusts could be to the face/throat, or to the ribs (well, between them with a sword).

An attack into this stance must never be taken lightly (no pun intended). One experience in kendo will teach you this.


Have you thought that maybe he was purposely opening himself up.

I'd have to add another thought. I would use the word invitation, which is consciously opening up a target for an opponent to attack. An invitation is more of a purposeful opening up of a target. For example, one drops the point in order to "invite" an attack to the arm. The tactic is to invite an attack while the defender has a counter move (counter attack) in mind. The attacker takes an invitation if he/she knows he can hit the target before a counter move/attack can be made (i.e. the defender is slower than the attacker), or he feints toward the opening to "provoke" a response while having his own tactical intentions. An invitation can be made to look as if the defender is doing it on purpose (it's goading the opponent) or he can do it and act like he isn't aware that the opening is there (which is a furtive technique).

In kendo, the jodan stance (with the sword above the head) is not an invitation, but an attack mode. Yes, the front of the body is "open" to attack, but it is also completely protected by the direct line of the blade. Also, no attack to the center can be made unless the attacker knows he will land before the defender in jodan can drop his sword. Yes, the opponent in jodan may be killed, but the failure to take out the defender in a single, instantaneous slash or thrust would result in the mutual hitting of tagets, potentially killing both. Mutual killing is not usually considered a successful strategy.

If one attacks a defender in jodan, it's best to aim for the wrists, which dissipates (or destroys) the counter attack.

 

I've read what you described about the "over-the-head" stance as being the most powerful; however, the lightsabre is very light, the blade is sharp all around, and the blade requires (most of the time) very little force to cut anything.

The over-the-head stance seems to be very effective for standard type swords, but for lightsabres it might not be the best stance...or at least the stance you described is not that much better in regards to other lightsabre stances.

*shrug*


Ciou-See the Sig

 

The over-the-head stance seems to be very effective for standard type swords, but for lightsabres it might not be the best stance...or at least the stance you described is not that much better in regards to other lightsabre stances.

What other stances, for example? The example I give applies to all long cutting weapons used by a biped, including one with a so-called massless blade.

 

*waits for ophelia to come in and say SOMETHING*

 

What I mean to say is that since the lightsabre is, in some significant ways, a different kind of sword that there might be as powerful, if not more powerful, stances than the over-the-head one.


Ciou-See the Sig

 

What I mean to say is that since the lightsabre is, in some significant ways, a different kind of sword that there might be as powerful, if not more powerful, stances than the over-the-head one.

If there are other more powerful stances, specify them.

A stance with any kind of impact weapon gets the most force, strength, and torque when dropped from a high point (over the head) to a lower point because of gravity. If you've had to stand and try to defend against someone in this position, you would know that the point of impact on the target is extremely difficult to predict. A strike can be made to the head, the head's side, neck, shoulder, upper arm, lower arm, wrist, side, hip, upper leg, knee cap, lower leg, all in a single swipe. Short of changing the physics of the universe (i.e. that of gravity, which appears to be equivalent in the SW movies), you can't change these physical facts. Added to this physics part of the equation are the physiologic factors of the body which include upper arm, shoulder, mid-section, musculature which give power and control to a strike. The only way to defend against this kind of strike is to pre-empt it or to avoid it.

A possible counter to the above head stance is a thrust. This requires precision, speed, and strength (though less conceptionally with a lightsaber). The requirement to overcome an above head strike with this attack is the same with another vertical strike: it must pre-empt the attack, or avoid it and then strike immediately. The scientific principles of this are timing and vector.

In addition, there is the psychological aspect that training and experience gives to a person to defend against an above head attack. A person of repute can unnerve a person in an above head stance because the fear of an attack is exacerbated by the fact that the full body is open when the sword is placed above the head. This causes the defender to change from a high position over the head to a middle position in which the sword is placed forward directly between the attacker and the defender or by lowering the sword from an above-the-head position to a position to the side of the head, which permits a quicker strike and block at the expense of the power physics gives to an over-the-head stance.

When you are talking about slashing cuts, every sword fighting style has recognized the power danger of an over head stance and its potential. Sword of Damocles is a simple cultural example of this. Why would the basic principles of lightsaber fighting differ from real sword fighting?

Perhaps an expansion of this discussion could be extended into hand-to-hand dagger combat which essentially employs a weapon which weight falls into the apacial area of the hand directly. Of course, a compensation must be made that no dagger or short knife is held with two hands like a lightsaber, as well as the fact that no dagger-like weapon has the reach of a sword (i.e. a lightsaber).

 

the over-the-head sword stance is directly samurai in origin or kendo.

twirling the sword is primarily used to loosen up the wrist.

 

No, the over-the-head stance is also found in medieval swordmanship. The fact that almost nobody's giving a damn about it doens't mean it doesn't exist.

And the over-the-head hit is the most powerful one can deliver. It doesn't have to do with the weight of the sword so much, but with the body of the attacker being used a massive lever.

 

samurai.

 

The fact that almost nobody's giving a damn about it doens't mean it doesn't exist.

The over the head stance is found in EVERY style of swordsmanship. My description of this position's strengths apply to any historio-cultural style of sword fighting, not just that of Japanese swordsmanship.

Just don't twirl when you're in this position unless you opponent is also twirling at the exact same moment.

 

Wouldn't that be a very good moment to stike the opponent instead of twirling around like a couple of Russian dancers? Don't forget, the first rule of swordfighting is "kill the other guy"..hehe, I love simple rules.