PT Two questions about Mace Windu

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Eggrert, Feb 24, 2013.

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  1. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    That's pretty much what he did, too
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  2. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    Perhaps no one can. After all, the Sith Order was created by a rogue Jedi Master. I think Palpatine was right when he said that the Jedi and the Sith were two sides of one coin. As long as the Jedi exists, there is always the possibility that the Sith might rise . . . over and over again. One could say the same if the Sith continued to exist.
  3. Teaviex Cue Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 25, 2012
    It's very surprising how he does not understand that.
  4. Ambervikings91 Jedi Master

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    Dec 1, 2012
    star 2
    Everybody seems to accept that this prophecy is actually true when we dont know its true. That is just the standpoint of the jedi. That is like if we filmed a movie from a christian, muslim or whatever point of view thent he viewers just assume it is correct. Maybe the prophecy is just jedi trying to make sense of something unknown.
  5. TheRevanchist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 13, 2012
    star 2
    He thought that the Sith were extinct but after the duel of Qui Gon/Obi-Wan with Darth Maul, then situation changed.
    He believed Skywalker. 'Then our worst fears are true' or something like that he said to Anakin after he told him about Palps.
    The Jedi decided that Palpatine has to be removed and they probably have to take over of the senate for some time, cause they were sure that Palpatine is being controlled by someone in his inner circle. Anakin telling him that in fact, Palps is the Sith Lord only made things worse.

    The kid was in fact one of the most powerful Jedi, the believed to be the chosen one, a member of the Jedi High Council, a good friend of Palpatine and the person who was assigned to spy on him. Not exactly no-one. And that same kid was genuinely shocked when he told him about Palps.
  6. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    But that's not how balance is represented in the films. In Star Wars balance is achieved by destroying the Sith and their corrupt use of the Force. "You were the Chosen One. It was said that you would DESTROY THE SITH not join them."
  7. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    I think in TPM they could have shown a greater connection of the discovery of the Chosen One and the re-emergence of the Sith. In the film they almost treat the two event as completely separate from each other, and even then they focus more on the liberation of Naboo (not that it's a small thing but...the Sith are back!) than finding out about the Sith. It would have made more sense to me if Windu or Yoda was like:
    "If the Sith have truly returned then perhaps the prophecy is coming into fruition. The boy may indeed be the Chosen One."
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  8. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Or at least, that was the Jedi's interpretation of that prophesy.
  9. SlashMan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2012
    star 3
    I'm sure they had doubts about the prophecy still being accurate, especially after the Sith's disappearance. But nevertheless, they were all aware of what Qui-Gon was referring to. The presence of a potential Sith Lord and the discovery of the one believed to be the Chosen One seems to be what made Qui-Gon make the connection. Even Yoda believes Qui-Gon's theory by the end. But the Council still isn't in favor because of the potential liability that Anakin could become.
  10. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    (1) One can easily slip into EU territory here since the prophecy isn't referred to much in the PT at all, but the question has an erroneous assumption: that the prophecy says the Chosen One will bring balance to the Force by eradicating the Sith. I don't think anyone actually says that's the wording of the prophecy, only that the Chosen One will bring balance. The various interpretations of the prophecy seem to be part of the reason the Council's so unsure about what Anakin's role is meant to be. Even Yoda says "clouded, this boy's future is." And the second issue is the context of Mace Ki-Adi-Mundi's dismissal of the possibility of a Sith Lord. Remember, in TPM Qui-Gon only knows that Darth Maul was "trained in the Jedi Arts." He says to the Council "My only conclusion can be that it must be a Sith Lord." Ki-Adi-Mundi dismisses that specific possibility on the presumption the Sith have been extinct for a millennia, and Mace says he doesn't believe the Sith could return without the Jedi knowing. So at that point all the Council has is that there's someone out there who can use the Dark Side and is trained in the Jedi Arts. That need not necessarily be a Sith. It's only at the end of TPM that Mace explicitly concedes that Darth Maul, at least, was a Sith. Moreover: the discussion about the Chosen One doesn't have a connection to Qui-Gon's conjecture that Darth Maul was a Sith. It's a separate issue that Qui-Gon brings up, and his evidence for the Chosen One is the possibility that Anakin was conceived by the midichlorians -- which leads the Council to assume he's talking about the prophecy. It doesn't have to do with the Sith.

    (2) Mace specifically says to Anakin that "If what you say is true [i.e. that Palpatine is the Sith Lord they've been looking for] you will have earned my trust." You can interpret that a couple of ways:
    (a) "If you're right, you must be entirely mature, intelligent, and cunning enough to fool a Sith Lord and stay alive while doing so. No reason for me not to trust your position on the Council if that's right."
    (b) "If you're right, you are confirming a dreadful suspicion that all of us, including me, have had. I will be convinced that you are one of us and you are a true Jedi." Here, Mace is also acting on the precautionary principle, since he's afraid that if Palpatine is a Sith, he'll act against the Jedi on realising he's been discovered before the Jedi have a chance to stop him. That's why Mace takes a posse with him. As to why he tries to arrest Palpatine without so much as a "Hey, recite the Sith Code for me, why don'tcha" -- I have a very strong suspicion that what's unsaid in that scene is that Palpatine is not hiding from the Jedi at that point. He's showing himself as a Sith and detectable in the Force. I think Mace and the others can sense the Dark Side centred on him at that stage, and Palpatine is only expressing feigned surprise for the benefit of the inevitable political repercussions to come, which he's orchestrated. The Jedi, of course, act immediately on that sensation they get from the Force: they try to place him under arrest.
  11. Skelter Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 1
    Damn man, that's an awesome way of putting it.
  12. Jcuk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2013
    star 4
    So did a 'chosen one' come into existence the last time the Sith were around? When the Jedi defeated the Sith before. Every time the Sith surface there must be a 'chosen one' who defeats them and brings the force into balance?
  13. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    ..But that's the thing, the Sith have never truly been destroyed. Since their creation there has always been a Sith Lord around to create a new order. Anakin was the only person to truly destroy the Sith, meaning there are 0 Sith Lords left in the galaxy. In hiding doesn't mean destroyed.
  14. Jcuk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2013
    star 4
    But that's the whole thing isn't it. There must be a natural balance to things. One can't exist without the other, yin and yang, light and dark, good and evil. So on those grounds ridding the galaxy of the Sith altogether would surely throw the force 'out' of balance. Thats my take on it anyway.
  15. rumsmuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7

    I'm pretty sure that Lucas has been quoted at least once saying that the prophecy was fulfilled.
  16. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    If you're going only by movie canon, then the extinction of the Sith did not lead to the fulfilment of the prophecy, because the Jedi had already tried that. The Sith have been "extinct" for a thousand years, per Ki-Adi-Mundi (or at least laying really low going by Mace's uncertainty in the same scene) but it's clear the Jedi did not think the prophecy had been fulfilled when the Sith were wiped out.

    If you're going by material coming from Lucas, the proposition isn't that the Sith have to be wiped out for the Prophecy to be fulfilled; it only requires that balance is brought to the Force. Lucas was apparently saying that the Sith were distorting the Force, causing the Dark Side to fill it, clouding the Jedi's perceptions. The Dark Side is a sort of shadow to the Force, and the Sith's effect on it was to make the shadow replace the light. Anakin's task as Chosen One was to bring the Force back into balance, to restore the Dark Side to its place as a shadow on the Force, not the pre-eminent power within it. That's probably not expressed very well, but in my defence, neither does Lucas.
    Last edited by Saintheart, Mar 27, 2013
  17. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Balance of the Force, not balance of the Force-users. Ridding the galaxy of Sith does not throw the Force out of balance because the Force is not a Jedi/Sith head count.

    From ROTS: "Is he not to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force?" "So the prophecy says."

    No. For one thing, most Jedi were destroyed, but they were not all destroyed. In movie-only canon Yoda and Obi-Wan survived, and later trained Luke as a Jedi. In the EU various others survived. For another thing, Anakin killed relatively few of them. The bulk of the Jedi were killed by clones, and Order 66 did not depend on Anakin.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Mar 27, 2013
  18. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    Yeah, I remembered that a few hours after I'd posted - my bad. In my defence, Yoda does warn both Mace and Obi-Wan one line later that the prophecy could have been misread. Without someone reciting the damn thing on screen, I don't think there's a positive way to know one way or the other.
    Last edited by Saintheart, Mar 27, 2013
  19. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    But IIRC Lucas has said precisely that: balance is brought to the Force by wiping out the Sith.

    The dark side is a side of the Force, and as such is not external to it. I suppose, using the above terminology, we could call it a shadow to the light side. Lucas sees the Force as naturally two-sided. To bring the Force back into balance is to restore the dark side to its place in balance with the light side, as opposed to the unbalanced state in which it grows out of bounds and threatens to "overwhelm" the light ( acting as the pre-eminent power ).
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Mar 27, 2013
  20. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    We are in violent agreement, as someone once said... :)
  21. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Your take can be whatever you wish to believe in. But in the SW films it's stated that bringing balance to the Force means destroying the Sith.
  22. Jcuk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2013
    star 4
    What works better? Luke to Leia,'the force is strong/the midi chlorian count has always been predominantly high/ in my family. My father has it/ had a high count. I have it/ have a high count. And my sister...Damn I'm bashing again!! I must fight the need! Sorry everyone, sorry. :)
  23. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    Who said this in what movie? A Jedi Knight or Master?
  24. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    In ROTS, the Masters begin to wonder if they have that prophesy right, you know, right before their chosen one helps to wipe them out.
  25. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Master. Like it makes any difference.
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