Two totally different takes on Hayden

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by _dArTh_SoLo, Oct 17, 2002.

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  1. Lagniappe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 1999
    star 4
    "Lagniappe: The reasons why Anakin was with Padme the whole time are important--"

    Well, it may be important to your point concerning his feeling for her or his duty or his courage or whatever... all the Anakin is really a great guy stuff..., but it has no bearing on my point whatsoever.

    You are saying Anakin does not stalk Padme because he does not tag after her...I am saying, we don't know if he would tag after her or not, becuase he is never put in a situation where he NEEDS to...he is always close to her, and she is always suggesting that saying, "No," does not really mean "No."

    (Which in my opinion is a very dangerous message for GL to be suggesting anyway, but that is another issue.)


    (I hope the above clears up confusion for those who did not seem to understand my reasons for saying the "WHY"s were irrelevant to my point. I thought I explained myself clearly, but apparently not. I even said I agreed with certain opinions, but that does not change the point I was trying to make. I certain did not try to dismiss anyone's opinion. Yes... I understand what you are saying and even agree with it...but it does not apply to the point I am trying to make.)

    "Besides, if she felt that uncomfortable with Anakin, she could have gone to the Council and requested a different Jedi to protect her--and, knowing Padme, she would have. "

    As I said, she is naive and she still thinks of Anakin as that little boy who helped save her planet. Of course she is unlikely to do anything that would cause a stain on his record...and she wants to help him overcome his frustration and anger...she is a helper...a giver...not necessarily a bad thing, and in many ways a good thing - but not healthy when combined with someone of a temperment like Anakin.

    "I think forbidden love is very romantic myself."

    Romantic, yes. I too like the Arthurian tales...but that does not make it "healthy." Most tales of forbidden love end tragically...remember?

    "Besides, it wouldn't have been forbidden, and they wouldn't have had to hide their marriage, if the Jedi didn't have stupid rules about it. "

    Perhaps there are good reasons for those "stupid rules"... reasons which will be better explained when Anakin and Padme's relationship comes to ruin. Yes, by our western standards, these rules seem harsh and difficult to understand, but they don't say "absolute power corrupts absolutely" without reason. Keeping Jedi away from attachments reduces the chances they will use their powers for self purposes. Just like Anakin did with the death of his mother.

    "There are more important things than politics."

    To a senator, who was queen at 14 and has spent her life learning the art of politics?

    I think you are projecting your own values on Padme.

    " A hell of a lot goes into a relationship."

    Yes, and how much do we SEE between Padme and Anakin? Where are their connections? Their shared experiences? What is their relationship acutally built upon?

    Anakin's fantacies and Padme's desires to heal the universe?


    And as far as their political differences, we are not talking about Republicans verses Democrates. We are talking about fundmental difference in the entire philosophy of what goverment IS and what it is meant to do!

    "The rest of your post, IMHO, degrades both Anakin's and Padme's characters, suggesting that they are both too stupid to know what they want."

    Where did I suggest they are stupid? Since when is confusion and uncertainly and even naivete indicative of stupidity? I don't think either one of them is stupid. Anakin is not stupid. He is immature and headstrong, but not stupid. Frankly, I think Padme is very smart, which makes her whole relationship with Anakin a bit dodgy for me. I don't believe she would be drawn to him. She would see he is unstable and needs time to mature. But, it apparently works for you. Fine.

    "There have been plenty of "quickie" marriages, and many have worked."

    And a heck of a lot of them don't.


    " I personally see a "Romeo and Juliet" type scenario, bu
  2. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    Perhaps there are good reasons for those "stupid rules"... reasons which will be better explained when Anakin and Padme's relationship comes to ruin.

    Reasons, maybe, but not good ones. That's why those rules are no longer around in the OT--Luke and Leia are both raised in families. They are also not around in the EU, if you follow it. I am convinced the Jedi fell because of their inflexibility and lack of vision--inflexibility when it came to training a young boy who needed training but was not raised according to their customs, and lack of vision in seeing that a Sith Lord was rising to power right under them. People like to blame Anakin Skywalker for the fall of the Jedi, but where do you think Palpatine fits in? If anyone is naive, it's the Jedi Council.

    To a senator, who was queen at 14 and has spent her life learning the art of politics?

    I think you are projecting your own values on Padme.


    Politics is her job. That doesn't mean her life revolves around politics. I've known I wanted to be a teacher since I was fourteen, and that's what I do now--but I didn't base my relationship with my husband on his view of the American educational system.

    And I disagree that Padme is naive (which, if someone calls me "naive", I translate that to mean "stupid"). She hasn't gotten herself elected Queen of her planet for two terms and then Senator because she was naive. She knows what's going on.

    And I don't know why you think a smart woman wouldn't like Anakin. His worst faults are that he's stubborn and has a temper--so what? I'm stubborn and have a temper--does that mean no smart man would ever like me? Anakin is good-looking, boyish, and charming. I personally would find it very appealing if a guy were to insist on finding my assassin even if it wasn't explicitly implied in his mandate; if he were to love his mother enough to disobey work orders to go after her when she's in danger; if he were to ride a strange-looking animal across a field to make me laugh when I've been having a hard time; if he were to use the Force to cut up a piece of my favorite fruit and feed it to me--and if he were to tell me that I made such an impression on him that he hasn't stopped thinking about me for ten years.

    I find the old, stuffy, let's-stick-to-our-duties type guys incredibly boring. And I don't consider myself stupid.
  3. Lagniappe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 1999
    star 4
    "Perhaps there are good reasons for those "stupid rules"...

    "Reasons, maybe, but not good ones. That's why those rules are no longer around in the OT--Luke and Leia are both raised in families."

    Actually, the rules are no longer around, because the Jedi are no longer around. So their good rules as well as the bad ones are no longer around.

    "I am convinced the Jedi fell because of their inflexibility and lack of vision--"

    I agree with you here. The Jedi seem determined to bring about their own downfall. And the COuncil fails both Anakin and Obi-wan. (In fact, IMO GL is making the Jedi entirely TOO witless. Protectors of the Universe or keystone cops?) However, that does not exonerate Anakin from his blame in what is to come. In the end, he will make his own choices....

    Unless GL throws in some totally unexpected plot twists and makes Anakin totally into a victim.

    "To a senator, who was queen at 14 and has spent her life learning the art of politics?"


    "....Politics is her job. That doesn't mean her life revolves around politics."

    Ah, but it DOES...everything we are told of Padme suggest that her universe has been centered around politics....at least up to this point. Anakin is aparently the first distraction she has encountered, and she is uncertain of how to deal with him.

    "And I disagree that Padme is naive (which, if someone calls me "naive", I translate that to mean "stupid")."

    The definition of naive is not "stupid." It is "unaware" or "innocent." Would you call one of your students "stupid" if they did not know how to do something they had never encountered before? Is the baby who puts her hand into a flame "stupid" because she has not learned it will burn? If you interpret naive as stupid, then yes, I suppose I did call her stupid, but as that is not what *I* meant, I think I can state that I had no intention of calling her "stupid."

    "She hasn't gotten herself elected Queen of her planet for two terms and then Senator because she was naive. She knows what's going on."

    She may know a lot about politics, but she seem rather new to the art of love.

    "And I don't know why you think a smart woman wouldn't like Anakin."

    Again, this is NOT what I said. I never said she would not like him. Obviously., she likes him. I said, I find it hard to believe she would be drawn to him, as in marriage.

    "His worst faults are that he's stubborn and has a temper--so what?"

    So what? A stubborn guy with a temper who just happens to be able to force people to do things with his mind, can use weapons with great accuracy, has the ability to toss objects across rooms, fling people around with force pushes, levitate objects, and kill very efficiently? I would steer clear.

    Oh, and I would say wiping out a whole village including women and children is a bit of a fault, wouldn't you?


    "Anakin is good-looking, boyish, and charming."

    I guess I am more likely to judge people based upon their actions rather than their ass. :)

    "I personally would find it very appealing if a guy were to insist on finding my assassin ... if he were to love his mother enough to disobey work orders to go after her when she's in danger; if he were to ride a strange-looking animal across a field to make me laugh ...he were to use the Force to cut up a piece of my favorite fruit...and if he were to tell me that I made such an impression on him that he hasn't stopped thinking about me for ten years."

    Yes, but you left out the other bits, like almost leaving his master to be destroyed, killing a whole village, using the Force for trivial matters (like feeding you fruit), getting bent out of shape whenever his skills are questioned, whining about how unfair his master is for not letting him do whatever he wants, rushing in to fight someone when unprepared rather than listening to his teacher...


    " And I don't consider myself stupid."

    Why do you feel the need to say this? do you feel I have called you stupid? If so, I assure you that is not the case.

    I may not agree with you, but t
  4. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    So what? A stubborn guy with a temper who just happens to be able to force people to do things with his mind, can use weapons with great accuracy, has the ability to toss objects across rooms, fling people around with force pushes, levitate objects, and kill very efficiently? I would steer clear.

    Well, I wouldn't. You're turning Anakin into Darth Vader too soon here. Besides, if the ability to "kill very efficiently" was a fault that kept a person from having a mate, no one in the military would ever deserve to get married.

    And as far as the village--I don't feel like getting into it here, but all I'll say is, people who don't like Anakin love to forget the other side of this--what the men in that village did to his mother, who was probably more innocent than anyone involved.

    I guess I am more likely to judge people based upon their actions rather than their ass.

    That's insulting. The only part of "good-looking, boyish and charming," that has anything to do with his "ass", as you say, is "good-looking." "Boyish" and "charming" are both attributes of one's personality.

    Yes, but you left out the other bits, like almost leaving his master to be destroyed, killing a whole village, using the Force for trivial matters (like feeding you fruit), getting bent out of shape whenever his skills are questioned, whining about how unfair his master is for not letting him do whatever he wants, rushing in to fight someone when unprepared rather than listening to his teacher...

    I addressed the village part above. I don't think it's right, but people love to forget the other side of it. When he "almost left Obi-Wan to be destroyed," let's not forget he was doing it to save Padme. "Getting bent out of shape whenever his skills are questioned"--I've been known to do that myself, especially depending on who is questioning them. "Whining about how unfair his master is"--he's a teenage kid. Did you never do that, or were you the perfect child? "Rushing in to fight someone unprepared"--again, I can relate, being an impulsive person myself.
  5. _dArTh_SoLo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    star 4
    ok this is just stupid

    the thread is intended to praise hayden and his portrayal of Anakin Skywalker

    lets keep on topic and please don't bash
  6. Lagniappe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 1999
    star 4
    " You're turning Anakin into Darth Vader too soon here."

    No, but I can see the signs.

    "Besides, if the ability to "kill very efficiently" was a fault that kept a person from having a mate, no one in the military would ever deserve to get married."

    Last time I checked, the military didn't have jedi powers.

    "And as far as the village-- all I'll say is, people who don't like Anakin love to forget the other side of this--what the men in that village did to his mother..."

    I have not forogtten, but I do not see that as excusing his actions. He, more than most, has been taught to control his emotions, and the dangers of the darker emotions, but he CHOOSES to let loose and kill, not only the Raiders who killed his mother, but the innocent children who had nothing to do with her death.

    "I guess I am more likely to judge people based upon their actions rather than their ass. "

    "That's insulting."

    I guess you missed the smiley, aye? I'll admit, I was teasing you a bit based upon your earlier comments. I suppose I could have been a bit more prim and proper and said, "I guess I am more likely to judge people based upon their actions than their attractive looks."

    There. Is that more acceptable? If you felt insulted, I apologize.

    But I do wonder if you are not mixing up the actor and the character a bit...Hayden seems to be a nice guy, but Anakin has some dark traits which you seem to dismiss as unimportant, when in the end, they will be the most important to his destiny and future.

    "I addressed the village part above. I don't think it's right, but people love to forget the other side of it."

    And as I said, I did not forget, but that does not change what he did. Your POV seems to boarder on "blaming the victim."

    "When he "almost left Obi-Wan to be destroyed," let's not forget he was doing it to save Padme."

    Ah, no... she was safe with him on Tatooine. He just suddenly decided to follow the will of the Council when the ordered him to stay put, knowing his master was in danger...and this after disobeying every dictate of the Council and his master left and right all through the first part of the film. Rather odd.

    "Getting bent out of shape whenever his skills are questioned"--I've been known to do that myself, especially depending on who is questioning them.

    So he is somehow justified because you also do this? The person countering Anakin's desires is not some nobody without a clue. Obi-wan is his Master....someone older and far more wise in the ways of the force. Obi-wan may not be sure how to deal with Anakin's temperment or abilities, but he also realizes Anakin is not ready to fully express those powers. He lacks the self control...which is clearly evident in his attack on the Tuskan Raiders.

    "Whining about how unfair his master is"--he's a teenage kid. Did you never do that, or were you the perfect child?"

    Hie is NOT just a teenage kid! He is a kid who has been trained by the Jedi for the last ten years! He has undergone trials and tests designed to teach him to calm his emotions and put self-desires and ego aside! We cannot judge him by the same standards as we judge the typical American teen at the malll....


    "Rushing in to fight someone unprepared"--again, I can relate, being an impulsive person myself.

    But you have not spent ten years under a tutelage that is designed to control your impulses. You are not Anakin. His life experiences are totally different. His training is totally different. His abilities are totally different! And this isn't about impulse buying at Wal-mart...Anakin is facing an enemy who has shown himself to be cunning and strong and deadly. Anakin knows better. He makes a clear choice to disobey Obi-wan, and they both pay the price for his pride and folly.

    As for the "bashing" bit....am I bashing? Do you feel bashed, Anakin girl? If so, I will stop discussing this with you. I feel we are agreeing to disagree over issues. I do not feel I am making any personal attacks on you, but "bashing" is in the eye of the behol
  7. Lagniappe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 1999
    star 4
    "the thread is intended to praise hayden and his portrayal of Anakin Skywalker."

    Then I am apparently here under a misconception. From the title, I thought this was a discussion of Hayden's acting in AOTC, whether one thought is excellent or not. I did not realize that differing opinons were not welcome.

    In my first post, I said I thought Hayden did a fine job with what he was given. However, as I did not have much more to say than that, I chose to address another subject of interest that was raised.

    I do have to wonder, though, that if there is so much confusion about exactly WHAT Anakin's motivations are, is this not an indication that Hayden's acting did not make things overly clear? Or maybe GL did not make it clear to Hayden? I would really have liked to have seen Hayden given more of a chance to strut his stuff in AOTC, for I have heard he is quite talented. Perhaps we will see more of this talent in Episode III.

    Lag *who does not know if she will return to this thread, as it seems she is unwelcome.*
  8. _dArTh_SoLo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    star 4
    I named the post the way I did to show how ridiculous the contrary opinion is

    so lets just praise him here, and not bash

    and anakin is NOT a frieking stalker...I'll post more about that later
  9. naw ibo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 5
    let's not forget he was doing it to save Padme.

    Padme, who didn't need saving, but in which he chose to assume the worst(he's always claiming to be so in touch with the Force, couldn't he have sensed it? If he had put his Jedi training into practice). Padme, who had put herself and him into the middle of an enemy planet with almost no plan and no logical reason to believe what little plan she had would work. Who encouraged him to allow them both to be put into the middle of an extremely uncertain, sensitive and dangerous situation without support(because no one knew they were going there). "good intentions" doesn't absolve someone from the consequences of their actions. Padme was in that situation because she chose to put herself into that situation, one which she had no reason to be in. At which point she forfeits any special protection from anyone, IMO. She is now not a Senator being protected from assassination attempt, she is a combatant and she and he both have to accept the danger that comes with that position. She seems to, he doesn't.
  10. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    But I do wonder if you are not mixing up the actor and the character a bit...Hayden seems to be a nice guy, but Anakin has some dark traits which you seem to dismiss as unimportant, when in the end, they will be the most important to his destiny and future.

    I can distinguish between an actor and the character he portrays. [face_plain] The way I see it is that you, like many other people who don't like Anakin, are trying to focus on his darker traits, in order to make him into Darth Vader sooner than he actually is.

    Let me also add that Anakin has been my favorite character since Return of the Jedi--at which point, Hayden was not only unknown, but was also not yet out of diapers. I started following Hayden's acting in May 2000 when he was selected to play Anakin--I watched an episode of Higher Ground just to see an example of his acting. I had no intention of watching more than one episode, but I was so awed by Hayden's acting talent that I became hooked.

    As far as Anakin's training--maybe he had received that training for the past ten years, but you have left out an important characteristic here that changes everything--Anakin was not raised like the rest of the apprentices. He had more baggage than you or I could ever think of having--how many of us were raised as slaves, and taken away from our mothers at age nine? The Jedi did not take into account Anakin's special circumstances when training him. I saw no evidence in either the movies or the novelizations of the Jedi actually giving Anakin some real instruction on handling his emotions--he seems to be simply told that a Jedi does not know anger or fear, and that's the end of it. Completely unrealistic expectations for someone in Anakin's circumstances.

    And no one said you weren't welcome here, and I don't necessarily feel like I'm being "bashed"--it's one thing when someone disagrees with me, but I felt like a couple of the things you said in your last post--like the implication that I choose my men for their looks before their personalities--were rather condescending.

    and anakin is NOT a frieking stalker...I'll post more about that later

    Amen. Geez. If I haven't made that clear in my posts, I don't know what else to say. I think some people just want to believe Anakin is a stalker so they can feed their bad image of him. I wish some people would try to forget "he becomes Darth Vader" and just focus on this movie--or, alternatively, realize that there are reasons why people behave the way they do, and the way to solve problems is to get to the bottom of those reasons, rather than categorizing people as either "good" or "evil" and sending the "evil" ones away.

    naw ibo: The problem is that you're expecting someone in their situation to be rational. I personally would not be--and I know I would behave exactly the way Anakin did, and I would take someone like Obi-Wan, saying what he said, to convince me to change my mind. As for Padme--she went to Geonosis, and demanded that Anakin come with her, because she wanted to save Obi-Wan. She thought she was doing the right thing. I would have had a hard time staying put myself.

    Side note: My husband and I have this ongoing conflict--he will take a situation (the most recent has been the DC shootings) and try to look at the rationale behind it, the logic, in order to solve the problem, whereas I'll try to put myself in the minds of the people involved and try to figure out what's going on that way. He says I'm "overdramatic", I keep telling him that human beings aren't logical (if we were, we'd be droids), and that not everything can be rationalized easily. I wonder if this isn't two different common personality traits, both of which are showing up on this thread and several others.
  11. Obi-Can Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2002
    star 3
    Darth_Solo,
    Are you really saying you don't want frank discussion here? That all you want to here is how great Hayden is, how pretty he is, and that he had an oscar winning performance in Star Wars. That he's the next James Dean and any and all who don't recognize this steller talent are just too stupid to see it. That his great talent outshines the likes of Ian McDiarmid, Christopher Lee, and Ewan McGregor (Dream on).

    If that's the case I totally misunderstood the name of this thread, I thought the title clearly stated that you were open to both points of view and that you don't find criticism personally threatening to your ego. That you thought Hayden's performance was great, but that you recognized that there were differing opinions.

    If that is the case, I'll have to follow Lagniappe , because that's just a -- well lets just say very uninteresting. Sounds Like a fan thread not a Star Wars discussion thread. Have fun.

    If you like frank discussions you should look into the Love Story thread.
  12. Lagniappe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 1999
    star 4
    Darth Solo...

    "I named the post the way I did to show how ridiculous the contrary opinion is..."

    Well, I guess that pretty much outright dismisses any opinion which does not match your own. A shame really. One limits one's self if one refuses to even consider other sides of an issue.

    "so lets just praise him here, and not bash..."

    I suppose I must have a differing opinion on what consitutes "bashing." For me, "bashing" is criticism without reason or ideas to back it up...blatant insults with no merit or thought behind them.

    I do not consider contrary opinions which are supported and well considered to be "bashing." If we are no longer allowed to criticize anything nor discuss weaknesses but only strenghts, then we risk becoming nothing more than fawning sycophants.

    "...and anakin is NOT a frieking stalker...I'll post more about that later ..."

    I think this depends upon HOW one interprets his actions and behavior in AOTC. He does not "stalk", that is true, but he shows indications of personality traits that are also found in those who may become stalkers... obsession, desire to possess, anger when thwarted etc.
  13. The_Abstract Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2002
    star 4
    And he shows personality traits becoming of good, decent people.


    Self-sacrifice, meditation, subserviance, love, obedience, humor, sorrow.....


    We all know where he is headed, all we're saying is he is not there yet.

    And Hayden's performance is a good balance of the Anakin of TPM, the Anakin in AOTC, and the future Darth Vader.


  14. Lagniappe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 1999
    star 4
    ". He had more baggage than you or I could ever think of having--"

    You and I, probably yes, but I would not presume to speak for everyone on this board. I am certain some have suffered terribly in life, and in all honesty, Anakin's slavery did not seem so bad.

    " I saw no evidence in either the movies or the novelizations of the Jedi actually giving Anakin some real instruction on handling his emotions-"

    But did you see any evidence that he had not? There are ten years unaccounted for, that we know very little about. Much could have happened during that time.


    " but I felt like a couple of the things you said in your last post--like the implication that I choose my men for their looks before their personalities--were rather condescending."

    And I have apologized for my jest. Perhaps it was in poor taste.


    "...ongoing conflict--he will take a situation (the most recent has been the DC shootings) and try to look at the rationale behind it, the logic, in order to solve the problem, whereas I'll try to put myself in the minds of the people involved and try to figure out what's going on that way."

    As do I. Empathy is one of my strong suits, but that does not mean I excuse individuals their choices, for in the end, one decides how one acts, regardless of the rationale behind it.

    That is all for now. Though I do not agree with all you have said, I do feel the need to add that I respect you for your profession. I too am a teacher, and as a fellow teacher, I understand both the importance and the difficulties of your chosen profession.

    So let us part without bitterness, aye?

    Lag
  15. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    Lagniappe like you said that's what you saw. Not everone saw that though.

    Also we all saw different things.

    The end.


  16. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    Obi-Can:

    That his great talent outshines the likes of Ian McDiarmid, Christopher Lee, and Ewan McGregor (Dream on).

    I love Ewan McGregor, and I think he's an excellent actor, but...let's not go here. How many awards had he won/been nominated for by the age of 21? Has he won/been nominated for as many as Hayden has, even now?

    I think he deserved Best Actor for Moulin Rouge at the Golden Globes, but I don't think he's better than Hayden. Damn good? Yes. Better? No.

    And comparing Hayden with Ian McDiarmid and Christopher Lee, who are both old enough to be his grandfather, is not a really fair comparison.

    Lagniappe:

    But did you see any evidence that he had not?

    Either he had not been taught, or the Jedi really sucked as teachers, because after ten years, he still didn't know how to let go or manage that fear and anger. Even students who flunk my class can at least ask to use the restroom in French or Spanish by the end of one year.

    Since I have more faith in the Jedi's teaching abilities, my guess is going to be that they didn't really try to teach Anakin control.

    Empathy is one of my strong suits, but that does not mean I excuse individuals their choices, for in the end, one decides how one acts, regardless of the rationale behind it.

    I don't necessarily excuse them, because I believe people have to take responsibility for their actions--however, I do understand, and I believe punishments should be geared towards prevention and rehabilitation more than anything else.

    So let us part without bitterness, aye?

    Agreed. :)

  17. Jedilisa Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2002
    star 3
    I agree with you Abstract.
  18. Jedilisa Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2002
    star 3
    "Yes, and how much do we SEE between Padme and Anakin? Where are their connections? Their shared experiences? What is their relationship acutally built upon?"

    I personally,wanted to see more of Padme and Anakin in the movie,but, let's not forget that there are a great deal of things going on at the same time..So, George Lucas did not
    ,I believe, include them because he is explaining the beginning of the end for the Republic(but, that's another discussion/thread).I have a question for you..did you read the book? or did you just see the movie? Because to me, the book explains more about Anakin and Padme and how their relationship develops throughout the story. Anakin may be inexperienced in certain things, but, Padme did have a love relationship before Anakin(that is another discussion/thread).So, technically, Padme knows what she wants and is not so "Naive" as it was put before. When she said "No" she meant "No" and Anakin backed off and never touched the subject again, not until she professed her love for him. But, that does not mean he did not have to care/watch/protect her..He at that point became her "Jedi Protector" and he did just that..he protected her from everything..he is willing to give up his life for her.
  19. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    I'd like to comment on something Palo_Bianco said a few pages back:

    If all films are created equal, and everything comes down to opinion, then no film can ever be better than your least favorite. AOTC is no better than the SW Holiday Special. ANH is no better than Leprechaun in Space. Any filmmaker who cares about putting any effort into their work is wasting his or her time, since they can just ship it right away and it'll still be just as good as everything else anyone has ever done. In fact, the whole craft of filmmaking is a joke, since nothing we do will ever top Scary Movie 2 or Pluto Nash.

    Forget all that. All films are not created equal. Actors, directors, writers, cinematographers, editors and members of every other profession in the business vary widely in talent, dedication, experience and luck. The right crew at the right time can pool their skills to create the Wizard of Oz or The General--but for every masterpiece and crew behind it, there are a hundred indifferent hacks cranking out straight-to-video knockoffs; check your local Blockbuster for endless examples of what I'm talking about. Cookie-cutter slashers like Ax 'Em and Final Stab, lobotomized, cut-rate shoot-em-ups like The Last Siege and The Tunnel, and more identical sex thrillers than anyone could ever name.

    Palo, are you arguing that AOTC is just as good as any of these? Personally, I think that "eye of the beholder" goes only so far.
  20. _dArTh_SoLo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    star 4
    anakin is not a frieking stalker and I'll tell you why, and if he is u can call just about anyone one.

    I'll be quite frank with you; I can really identify with Anakin. The feelings that he exhibits for Padme are ones that are reminiscant to his own; he's just trying to express his feelings. he really cares for her, deeply, and it's not just lust. He truly cares for her, and you can tell that from the movie....maybe he doesn't truly love her, like he thinks he does...but if you can't tell that well you are blind or just plain...

    Just because he thought of her the past 10 years doesn't mean he is a stalker or stalkerish. He was taken from his mother when he was 9 years old. True it was his decision, but his mother PUSHED HIM TO GO, as did Qui Gon. He was so young, and couldn't have possibly known what the outcome would be so don't give me that BS. Padme was the one warm place he could go in his heart; thinking of his mother only brought him pain. He was all alone, and Obi Wan could not have possibly understood. No one in the Jedi order could have identified with him.

    Anakin is just trying to come to grips with his feelings, and DEEPLY cares for Padme. It's not his fault he cares for her so much, he can't just wish away his feelings.

    I swear the dialogue from the fireplace scene was like exactly what I have felt at times for a very special person, and it is NOT FUN!
  21. SWfan2002 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2002
    star 4
    I swear the dialogue from the fireplace scene was like exactly what I have felt at times for a very special person, and it is NOT FUN!

    I agree. I've experienced emotions like Anakin described in the "fireplace" scene. That's why I actually like the scene-- because I can connect with it, as embarassing as admitting so may be.
  22. _dArTh_SoLo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    star 4
    I'm gonna be super honest here; I have so much in common with Anakin it's not even funny--personality wise. It's amazing, and that is why I love SW so much. I can identify with it more than anything else, it's really cool.

    And I'm not a frieking stalker

    so shut up about the stalker business
  23. jedi scholar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 1999
    star 3
    Ok,I know I'm coming very late to this thread, but I feel that I must throw in my two cents.

    I believe that all art is subjective. A person's engagement with a particular work of art is highly influenced by her/his own world view. There is no such thing as a definitive opinion about any work of art. The same is true for artists like actors. What an individual thinks about a performance is totally linked to her/his own feelings and impressions.

    If an actor/actress can get me to believe that what I'm seeing is genuine or strikes emotional chords within me, then I am predisposed to view the performance positively. Hayden's performance met those criteria for me, but I respect that the same does not hold true for others.
  24. naw ibo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 5
    Padme was the one warm place he could go in his heart; thinking of his mother only brought him pain. He was all alone, and Obi Wan could not have possibly understood. No one in the Jedi order could have identified with him.


    Anakin is training to be a Jedi knight, he shouldn't be "escaping" it with fantasies of Padme. He is being dishonest and disrespectful by doing so because there are people who are taking him seriously when he says he wants to be a Jedi and doing their darnedest to give him the tools and the experience and the understanding he'll need to reach that goal. In essence he is allowing them to waste their time and their energy and their care. Thinking of his mother shouldn't have brought him that much pain, his mother loved him and allowed him to go off to what could have been a much better life than he had had up to then. He's actually disrespecting her own sacrifice if he's allowing her memory to bring him pain that he needs to stay away from it instead of focusing on the good things(hmm...focusing on the negative again perhaps?).

    Why does he "care so deeply" for Padme he can't think straight before he even meets her again? Be real, he knew her for a few days when he was 9 years old, absolutely everything else is built up on a fantasy, an unreality. It isn't based on anything real. It's an unhealthy preoccupation. No it wasn't based on lust when he was 9(but nine years olds do certainly get strong crushes:) ), that doesn't mean it isn't part of it now. He's grown up since then, things change, and his feelings for her are no longer simply a nine year old latching onto a pretty older girl who is kind to him. In the intervening years, she has become his escape mechanism, he's built up a whole fantasy world around her, his way of not facing reality, his way of justifying his waywardness to himself and it has indeed become mixed with those hormones that develop when one goes through adolescence.

    As for Titanic, hey I didn't buy that either, I thought it was just a bad movie, but really the love story was all just an excuse to hang the sinking of the ship on anyway. Now I like that part. I don't care how much money it made I don't know anyone who actually thinks that is a "such a great love story" or even that it is a great movie. Even the ones who saw it multiple times see the movie now and look back and think of it as some weird aberration, like they got caught up in some wave of mass hysteria. :)

    I love Ewan McGregor, and I think he's an excellent actor, but...let's not go here. How many awards had he won/been nominated for by the age of 21? Has he won/been nominated for as many as Hayden has, even now?

    I think he deserved Best Actor for Moulin Rouge at the Golden Globes, but I don't think he's better than Hayden. Damn good? Yes. Better? No.


    Hayden and Ewan have been acting professionally for the same amount of time. They both have their first professional roles in 1993. So obviously Hayden started at a younger age. Ewan celebrated his 21st birthday on the set of his first professional role(aside from a bit part in Being Human), which was one of two male leads in a British miniseries directed by Dennis Potter. So when Ewan was twenty one, he had little professional experience, whereas at twenty one Hayden already has many years professional experience under his belt.

    He's actually won quite a few awards. But he isn't American or North American, many of his films have not been American or North American, he isn't going to be nominated for the same awards. Trainspotting is an amazing and groundbreaking film, but it was virtually ignored over here. But he's won alot of British and European awards, both of the academy and film critics types and of the people's choice types. He also won London theatre awards for that play he did a few years back, Little Malcolm and his Struggle Against the Eunuchs.

    These include but are not limited to:
    2002 won : International Press Academy Golden Satellite(off shoot of Golden Globes--satellite/globe get it ;) -- g
  25. Jemmiah Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2000
    star 5
    "I named the post the way I did to show how ridiculous the contrary opinion is.

    so lets just praise him here, and not bash."

    I've read this thread with interest, even although it's gotten heated from time to time, but I guess it would be ultra-boring if we all sat down and agreed with each other constantly. However, I agree with Aniandami. People have different opinions. Am I, or anyone else for that matter, not allowed to express an opinion? Because the words I have quoted suggest that anyone who does dissagree and take a contrary stance is an imbacile! And I'm sorry, but that IS insulting. :mad:

    I quite liked Hayden. He surprised me; I liked the Tusken scenes in particular. He worked well in the meadow scenes (incidentally I thought this was Portman's best part of the film too). Even as a dyed-in-the wool Obi-Wan fan (who I personally identify with far more than Anakin) I enjoyed his performance very much. But I resent being told that I can't have a different opinion to anyone else if I wish. And if I disagree then I do not like being called "BRAINDEAD" for doing so.

    Hayden is good. But he is not perfect: nobody is. Not you Oliviers or your Guilguids.


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