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Lit Ultimate Star Wars

Discussion in 'Literature' started by darklordoftech, Feb 10, 2015.

  1. Tzizvvt78

    Tzizvvt78 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2009
    The problem is when the chips are down, the Rebels ended up winning not just due to "determination", but actually using resources (log traps, from an abundant forest moon), hijacking a walker (an Imperial vehicle) and using actual heavy firepower of their own, in space. The majority of battles are still won simply by wearing the opponents down, while Yavin (using the Force) and Endor (getting unexpected allies) are outliers.

    The new canon seems to put more emphasis on the Rebel forces than this book would give the impression of. In the upcoming Battlefront novel, Twilight Company is an actual military unit with a professional designation, the 61st mobile infantry, fighting in the "Mid Rim Campaign". In Commander, they're getting all kinds of mechanized units from the CW. This isn't just the WEG campaign group we're used to from the EU.

    "The Rebel Alliance is too well-equipped, they're more dangerous than you realize."

    LFL is finally starting to emphasize this.
     
  2. iucounu

    iucounu Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2014
    The effectiveness of the Imperial war machine is always compromised by its leadership, is the point, I think.

    In ANH, we see stormtroopers and TIE pilots on the Death Star fail horribly to stop the rescue team, but at least part of that has to be because Vader and Tarkin have ordered them to let the rebels escape. Their overconfidence comes from two different philosophical sources (the Sith and the Tarkin Doctrine respectively) but it combines to doom them.

    In ESB, the Imperials take Hoth, but sloppily, because of the incompetence and overconfidence of Admiral Ozzell, without whom the rebels would have been crushed.

    In ROTJ, the Emperor concocts an elaborate and prideful trap which overlooks the Ewoks, who shift the delicate balance of probabilities on Endor, and also Luke's Jedi strategy of self-sacrifice, which confounds his Sith manipulations.

    The narrative contrast in the Clone Wars is that the leadership of the Army of the Republic is all Jedi, and they're better leaders than the Sith or the pyramid of interchangeable fascist officers under them. The values of the armies are different; the fascists are bullies and drones, but the clones are, paradoxically, better people than them, with more individuality, loyalty and bravery. It's the Jedi officers who are always - in the stories - bringing those qualities out of them. Anakin commands respect; Vader wields fear; one works better than the other, and the fact that the two armies are using very similar hardware is intended to underline that.
     
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  3. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    I also dislike standard TIEs "really" being "TIE Lines" or "TIE/LNs".
     
  4. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012

    Different strokes for different folks. I seem to recall this being a bone of contention for years in the Fleet Junkie thread, in a reread of it. Maybe the Story Group have just finally come down on one side (X-Wing, and WEG, instead of Saxton).
     
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  5. Tzizvvt78

    Tzizvvt78 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2009
    Why would Ackbar in ROTJ order just his fighters to focus fire when he's sitting in a warship? We even hear his voice reverberating through an intercom, he's obviously addressing everyone.

    Why would TCW, which Lucas precided over, emphasize fleet combat using capital ships slugging it out, combined with fighter strikes? Over Ryloth, the fighters get mauled by capital ships when their own cruisers withdraw. Against the Malevolence, the bombers destroy the ion cannon, but the ship is still functional. In Legends, the battlecruiser Helmsman only got its armor punched through by a supercharged shot, not a regular fighter bolt. The ship itself was still active afterwards.
     
  6. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Retired Fleet Admiral star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 28, 2003
    Yeah, Ackbar's "concentrate all fire" line was undoubtedly a direction to all Rebel ships within range. Not just the various squadrons, but any capital ships as well. At this point in the battle, the Executor is surrounded, her escorting Star Destroyers are starting to fall to Ackbar's capital ships, and the battle is starting to turn. It is the perfect moment to literally swarm the SSD. Ackbar's big cruisers start to zoom in, pounding away, while fighter squadrons exploit gaps in the Ex's shields to knock out key systems. It is a perfect moment, which culminates in the loss of the Big Ex and the ultimate rout of the Imperial Navy at Endor.

    --Adm. Nick
     
  7. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    It's a pity we don't get to see the cruisers doing that pounding - walls of laser fire battering the shields, torpedo detonations by the dozen, and so forth.

    I noticed that in the old EU, a lot, fighters flew through the shields (ray shields, probably) to attack the vulnerable spots. After reading Outbound Flight, that was how I interpreted the A-wing attack on the Executor.
     
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  8. Tzizvvt78

    Tzizvvt78 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2009
    I think it's wrong to say fighters can fly through shields, when capital ship shields should be for countering both enemy capital ships as well as enemy fighters. Why something that can stop capital ship fire should allow lasers from starfighters is illogical, even from an in-universe POV.
    Even if there were different types of shields that had different settings, why wouldn't capital ships have two layers, where one stops lasers and the other physical objects?

    The stories where shields played a big role in canon, usually gives them some other weakness, like slow to recharge (Cat and Mouse) or they allow slow-moving grounded objects to pass through (TPM, ESB, the Onderon arc). A-wings are noted for their speed, so I doubt they'd pass. The Endor shield is a good example, the fighters don't fly through, they veer off at the last second.
     
  9. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Yeah, fighters going through the original Death Star's shields would be an exception. The ship's defenses were explicitly said not to be worried about fighters.

    Big Ex? The proper nickname for Executor is "Cutie"

    :p


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
     
  10. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    This makes me nostalgic for the days of Poster Monthly, where Imperial equipment is described as being superior to Rebel equipment.

    http://www.theforce.net/image_popup/image_popup_global.asp?Image=timetales/misc/arcana/post6-03.jpg
     
  11. Vthuil

    Vthuil Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2013
    You know, I don't think I've ever seen the suggestion in there of the TIE fighter engine as superior to the more visible "rocket" engines of Rebel fighters picked up by any subsequent material.

    I wonder sometimes how much other behind-the-scenes production intent stuff wound up being completely ignored by later sources.
     
  12. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    There's the "nebula" at the end of TESB (CINEFEX) being made into the galaxy in later sources, there's the "radar domes" being made into primarily shield generators or "communication and deflection domes" - with the deflection function emphasised, and so on.
     
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  13. WadiumArcadium

    WadiumArcadium Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2014

    Yep. Bit disappointing but the Force Awakens prints with the September release sound nice.
     
  14. anakincol

    anakincol Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2009

    The shield blocks the stike from the sword but admits the slow kinjal from Dune type of idea?
     
  15. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    I think that was how droideka shields worked. Maybe the same applied to Dreadnought shields in Outbound Flight.
     
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  16. anakincol

    anakincol Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Thank the maker they apparently figured out how to nullify the holzman effect in star wars, though I thought Frank Herbert really did a good job with that idea to explain why human society went back to slugthrowers and melee weapons, laser hits shield, nuclear explosion at both ends of the shot.
     
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  17. A8T

    A8T Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 9, 2014
    So, is the Acclamator still used by the imperials as a transport long after the clone wars (didn't think this would be in the book, but just checking in case).
     
  18. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    The TIE getting named for its engine always gave me the impression that its engine was an innovation.
     
  19. Tzizvvt78

    Tzizvvt78 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2009
    Given all the things Lucas ripped off from Dune, yep.
     
  20. Trebor Sabreon

    Trebor Sabreon Former Manager star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 15, 2010
    I'm curious whether the 501st merits a mention in the book?

    And if so, if there is any evidence that they continued on as a Legion beyond the Clone War, into the Imperial Period (and if there's any mention of "Vader's Fist")?
     
  21. iucounu

    iucounu Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2014

    The only mention I see is this -

    "Accompanied by the 501st Legion, later known as Vader's Fist, Vader and the troopers massacre the Jedi Order..."

    There's no entry for the 501st otherwise.
     
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  22. Trebor Sabreon

    Trebor Sabreon Former Manager star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 15, 2010
    Hey, thank you very much for taking the time to check it out for me! I really appreciate that. :)

    One of the things which sounds intriguing about this book is that it's giving us an idea of some of what has been retained as canon going forward.

    And that's the reason I asked about the 501st. Someone pointed out that, when you get right down to it, we don't even know whether the Legion ever existed beyond ROTS (let alone if something straight out of the EU -- like the moniker "Vader's Fist" -- was going to be kept)?

    For all we really knew, the LSG may have decided that the Legion was disbanded, reorganized, etc. before the Imperial Period ever really got going.

    ----------

    As to what was said in the book: "Accompanied by the 501st Legion, later known as Vader's Fist, Vader and the troopers massacre the Jedi Order..."

    Well, there are two ways of reading the entry, I suppose:

    - The first goes something like this: "Years later, when telling stories about this historical mission, people would often describe the troopers of the 501st who were by Darth Vader's side that night as 'Vader's Fist.'"

    - Or, one could see it as: "The troopers of the 501st Legion marched with Darth Vader on the Jedi Temple, before continuing on to serve with Vader and the Empire for years afterward. They would later pick up the nickname "Vader's Fist" at some point along the way."


    I personally prefer the latter, as I'd like to believe that most all of the good stuff about the Imperial 'five-oh-first' was kept relatively intact.

    One way to know for sure is to have Vader appear surrounded by an elite cadre of Imperial Stormtroopers in a dark times novel, an episode of Rebels, or even Rogue One, and then have the troopers actually referred to as the 501st Legion in the dialogue.

    Even better if some would-be rebel says: "The 501st? Wait, you mean 'Vader's Fist'? Good luck, friend. It's been nice knowing 'ya, but, um... I think I may have left my oven on back at home." :D
     
  23. iucounu

    iucounu Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2014
    What the new canon decision does, as far as I can tell, is just to give the LSG the option to declare any particular EU story canon or non-canon on a case-by-case basis. There doesn't seem to be any kind of scorched-earth, no-going-back policy in effect; they're cherry-picking.

    I'm pretty sure '501st' was already canon (wasn't it referenced in TCW?) but maybe 'Vader's Fist' hadn't been mentioned explicitly yet, but it'd be weird to dispose of it - it's a neat nickname and I doubt they'd come up with something better.
     
  24. Tzizvvt78

    Tzizvvt78 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2009
    I assume the 501st being with Vader on the Tantive IV and Echo Base is still canon? There's no sense in renaming them into another unit.
    The 501st was in TCW, yes, but called the 501st Battalion, not a Legion.

    Apparently, SW in 100 Scenes is the source for the 501st Legion being active in the Empire:

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/501st_Legion/Canon#cite_note-100_Scenes-1
     
  25. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    I always got the suggestion in most sources that they were superior -- small, lightweight, and high-performance. The games have TIEs and X-wings at the same speed, the X-wing novels usually concur, while other sources have them faster.

    X-wing engines have to share power with shields and more lasers, but they're bigger and bulkier for sure too.

    TIE engines are smartphone computers and X-wings are desktop computers. The latter can do more stuff but the former is way smaller and quickly responsive to its lighter weight demands.


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
     
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