Un question....

Discussion in 'Communications' started by RidingMyCarousel, Apr 20, 2003.

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  1. Gay-LenKenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2000
    star 5
    C-3P0, you said the following

    "I for one was extremely dissappointed when a prominent member of the Basher's Sanctuary was made the TPM mod.

    For the life of me I don't understand why anyone who dislikes TPM would become mod for that forum.

    I feel that the TPM board became a "basher only" haven.

    I truly felt that my postive opinions of TPM in that forum were unwanted"



    You say it's a "basher only" haven, you disapprove of any bashers modding in that forum, and you felt the bashers ruined the forum by forcing out positive opinions of the film.

    Then you say that you don't have anything against the bashers. I'm not buying it.


    "I haven't posted regularly in over a year."

    Then you also have no idea what the atmosphere is like in the TPM forum at the moment. You can't testify from recent experience that you felt positive comments were unwanted. You are talking about what you observed a year ago.

    Moreover, one of the threads they are advocating removing is one devoted to positive opinions and discussion about the film. One that bashers don't come in and harass people. They don't argue with the participants or insult them for liking TPM. Bashers aren't forcing everyone with a positive opinion out of the forum. Some of them are even supporting the DF's right to be in the forum.

    One more time, there could easily be individuals who call themselves a gusher or a basher that are breaking the TOS and harassing people. And those people, as always, should be dealt with. But locking the threads will not discourage those people. It won't make them change their attitudes, behavior, biases, etc. It would instead be punishing large groups of people for something they aren't doing.
  2. C-3P0 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 20, 2001
    star 4
    You don't have to buy it.

    I'm not selling anything.

    I simply don't understand anyone wanting to dedicate the time and energy that goes into moderating on a movie that they do not like. Maybe that point was unclear in my first post.

    Even if changes are made, I have no intention to go back to posting in the TPM forum. However, I do believe that there are many other people like me who have left that forum because of the hostile atmosphere and petty bickering on both sides. Maybe some of them would return if these changes are made.

    The AOTC forum appears to run much more smoothly, and they don't have these "Sanctuary" threads.


    Besides, I said I haven't posted regularly in a year. I've been a lurker because I no longer feel the need to justify my likes or dislikes of these films.

    From long-term experience I came to the obvious conclusion that no one will change their minds, and that cyclical arguments are frustrating, not rewarding.


    I fully intend to begin posting regularly again when some actual Episode 3 spoilers start.

    There's no need to dismiss me out of hand simply because I have a different opinion.

  3. royalguard96 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2001
    star 5
    Check the threads at SOTJ about redxavier, DrEvanzan, and the Basher Posts from Hell. There is no interest in getting rid of a divide (which stems from experience, not the threads) - there is interest in getting rid of posters.

    I believe it's been established by the admins that off-site material have no bearing at all on what takes place here on-site. Such issues are irrelevant, I believe except in the case of determining ban lengths. There was a spirited Comms thread recently which addressed this topic.

    I also think GriffZ brings up a legitimate question. I think a lot of us are willing to see points you make, QS, yet, I do not see any concession or budging on your part, from points other people have made. I think it's frustrating for them and makes them feel like you're dismissing them without truly hearing what they have to say. If nothing else, it gives the appearance you are looking at the issue from an isolated point of view and not an objective one.

    I have no doubt that my response will garner quite a few reactions from the principles involved in the past few threads. No doubt there will be cries of flame-baiting or trolling, calls for my demotion for being a biased mod, etc. What you will not see are admissions that these folks have a history of trolling and harassing fellow posters, that it is their behavior, and not their opinions, that has caused them to get in trouble.

    From this, it sounds like you are focusing more on the posters than the issues that are brought up, which contradicts what you say people should be doing. Look at the issues raised, not the people who raise them.

    As I stated in a prior thread, I have a middle-ground solution: temporarily lock the DF and BS and see what happens from there. There's no reason they can't be unlocked in the future if the results aren't objectively desireable.
  4. UK Sullustian Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 4
    Surely the most important question is why does a group of people who dislike a film, have there own special thread in a forum dedicated to that film?

    I could understand maybe having one in Whatever Misc Is Called Nowadays, where a negative view on one film can be viewed from the overall perspective of the saga and doesn't need to be actually discussing TPM, or if it has simply become a chat club then it goes into the JCC, but why should it stay in the TPM forum itself?

    Why?

    I'd like to think that enough time has passed for us to put the entire TPM Gusher/Basher thing behind us.

    UKS
  5. slavegirl Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 4
    Moving or locking the two threads won't solve anything - the problem isn't the threads, but, as I said in one of the other threads, a few extreme posters who stir up trouble in them. I think it's fairly obvious that many of the people who want these threads abolished aren't doing so to unite the fanbase as they claim, but to get rid of certain posters they dislike.
  6. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
    The loudest voices aren't always the correct one's.
  7. C-3P0 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 20, 2001
    star 4
    Yet, sometimes they are.










    I think this thread has some valid points and deserves more effort than a fortune cookie reply. Especially from the moderators and administrators.
  8. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
    Alright, no need to attack. I don't feel I need to reply in tomes and chapters just because the initial post was set up in such a way. It is best to let the thread go on as it is. The original topic is so broad and lacks specifics that it is difficult to respond to. Folks on each side get all bent out of shape. It is so much easier to respond to specifics rather than the way it was initially written. Fit that response in your fortune cookie.
  9. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    So, the question here is actually not asking the question, but instead asking whether or not the question it's not asking should be asked?

    How about someone just ask the question and let's see. Because as far as whether asking the question which asks whether or not the question can be asked, I'd have to answer the question to the question of whether or not it can be asked with a "yes."

    Your winning numbers:
    11-03-19-40-13
  10. royalguard96 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2001
    star 5
    OK, let's try this:

    Are you in favor of doing away with defense forces and sanctuaries? If so, why, and if not, why not?
  11. C-3P0 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 20, 2001
    star 4
    Sorry if my post came off as harsh.

    I simply believe that I made some good points about the disparity between the TPM forum and the AOTC forum. One line responses are frustrating when you really attempt to get your point across.

    Besides, I thought under Kadue's communications reforms, the mods at least would try to keep the threads on tack or at least read the entire thread before giving a flippant answer.



    I am confident that if the Basher/Gusher threads were removed from the TPM forum more people would feel comfortable there. It already works in the AOTC forum.

    I hold no hard feelings. :D
  12. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    It depends. For "community forums," no. For "discussion forums," yes.

    Forums set up for discussion of something should IMO allow all free, unfettered reasonable debate on the merits of the focus of the discussion, regardless of whether it is positive in tone or negative in tone. Let the points stand or fall on their own merits. In a discussion, gushing is just as bad as bashing is, and neither should have to exist.

    However, it needs to be recognized that there can be a valid and valued community-building aspect of the camaraderie involved in some types of defense forces/paradises/havens/etc. If the community forums in question allow such focused "chat" threads, then certainly basher/gusher-focused threads are definitely a reasonable part of that class.

    If I can use the EU forums as a specific example. In Lit., basher/gusher types of threads are not (and IMO should not be) allowed. However, in EU Community, basher/gusher types of threads are allowed, because they're just an arbitrary extension of the types of threads that are also allowed in that forum.
  13. C-3P0 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 20, 2001
    star 4
    Thank you for a more intelligent response Genghis12.

    I would submit that Star Wars Community is the logical and reasonable place to house these sanctuaries.

    Their prominence in the movie discussion forums alone leads to an atmosphere of polarization on the basher/gusher issues.

    By no means do I want all bashers or gushers to go away. Intelligent discussion is very possible with opposing views. Just look at the healthy AOTC forum.
  14. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
    I disallowed basher/gusher threads and sanctuaries of any sort when I was moderating the AotC prequel/post-release forum and now for the 3SA. It's best to have a thread title that isn't extreme, but rather one that encourages both sides of the opinion in a civilized manner. The aforementioned threads automatically put folks on the defensive. By having a thread title about a specific topic, the extreme posts/users stand out much more readily.
  15. GriffZ Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2001
    star 6

    So why are the threads allowed in the TPM forum? Surely some of that hostility leaks over into the AOTC/3SA forums as well.

  16. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
    I never go to TPM and haven't seen AotC this year. But I can tell you it's not spilling into the 3SA.
  17. GriffZ Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2001
    star 6

    Would you agree that the Sanctuary/Defense Force mentally isn't helping the AOTC/3SA forums?

  18. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
    Well, I don't tell another mod how to run their forum. But I think it's obvious it isn't helping. It's best to set a rule where they're disallowed. If you allow a basher, you have to allow a gusher. Anytime you have an extreme love or hate thread, you're doomed. I would sweep them all out of TPM and AotC and start fresh. But that's just me. I can say I never saw any Comms threads when I was with those forums saying there should be sanctuaries. I established a rule, enforced it always and consistently, and it has worked well ever since.
  19. GriffZ Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2001
    star 6

    And that's why you are the best.mod.evar.

  20. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
    GriffZ, we should all listen to you. You speak words of wisdom. ;)
  21. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    This isn't about ridding the forums of bashers. It is about abolishing exclusive threads that do not tolerate dissent.

    Quix is quick to bring up my past in which several TPM mods have labled me as a trouble maker, not exclusively because of flaming, although I have been approriately punished for some flames. Most of that has to do with the idea that the opinions I put forth are causing other people to flame me, hence they lable it "flame baiting".

    A great portion of things I have been "noted" for have to do with my claim that the problems others have with the films I love simply isn't my problem, it's theirs.

    Quix (I guess he works in the mental helath feild) turns up to tell me that I am telling others they have mental problems, when that was nothing at all like what I was saying.

    Long story short, I don't think Quixotic should be in charge of deciding this matter, because I do not think he can be fair about it.

    He wants the sanctuaries to stay open because he is a regular poster in the BS. Truth be told, when the sanctuaries were originated, they did help keep things under control. But now, we actually have moderators that are good enough that we no longer need these forums, and I think the stigma of being "exclusive" threads makes them at their very nature against the spirit of the TOS.

    I was banned from the Basher's sanctuary, not for trolling, but for countering some of their negative points (well I might add).

    They told me that "gushing" was "decidedly off topic" and it was considered "trolling" in that thread.

    So for quix to say people are only banned from the thread for "trolling", he is correct, but then again for that specific thread dissent with the nagativity IS considered "trolling".

    To me, this goes against everything this forum should be about.

    I have nothing against the bashers, and I hope that when we put these days of having such a negative division between fans behind us, they will continue to post in regular threads to represent their stance.
  22. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    So this has turned into yet another "Close the basher/gusher threads" discussion?

  23. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Well first it turned into a "lets paint the sanctuary abolishment movement in an easily dismissed light" thread, then I changed it into a "no this is what I was really trying to say/clarification of Quixotic's mud slinging" thread.
  24. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
    Perhaps you and QS should really be working this via the PM format versus a public airing of dirty laundry.
  25. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    There was really no reason for Quix to bring my past up in this discussion. It really has no bearing on this matter.

    If he is going to spout off his "opinion" of my posting behavior here, then I don't see the problem with allowing me to give my side to it here.
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