Un question....

Discussion in 'Communications' started by RidingMyCarousel, Apr 20, 2003.

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  1. GriffZ Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2001
    star 6

    That's a valid point. Too often in Communications do people attack the person and not the person's argument.

  2. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
    Which is why I addressed the both of you and not only you.
  3. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    I trust that this matter will be handled in a fair manner, and I mean no disrespect to Quix. He is a good Mod overall, despite our differences.
  4. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    Well if I am not mistaken, this is a forum specific issue pertaining to the TPM forum. As such, once all the discussion is said and done, I think the decision is up to the TPM Mods. Despite whatever questionable motives might have been behind the instigation of this round of discussion of the Basher/Gusher threads, good discussion from people with valid things to say and no games or ulterior motives has happened here and in the AC. Now it's up to Quixotic-Sith and oakessteve to discuss things, if they feel the need, and make a decision.

  5. GriffZ Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2001
    star 6

    Well if I am not mistaken, this is a forum specific issue pertaining to the TPM forum.

    I disagree. I think the "Basher/Gusher" debate effects all the film forums (but especially TPM and AOTC) and as such is up to everyone - members and mods alike - to discuss it openly and freely right here, in Communications.

  6. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    Yes griffz, discuss all you want. But the decision is up to the TPM mods. That is the point of my post above.

  7. GriffZ Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2001
    star 6

    And my point is that it should be up to all the film mods.

  8. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    As much as I respect Quixotic Sith and Oakessteve, both of them have a conflict of interests in this matter. The only fair thing to do in my humble opinion, is to have moderators outside of the TPM forum discuss the matter.

    If we leave it up to just the TPM mods, the matter won't be given any consideration, as shown at least in part by Quixotic's rush to sweep this all under the carpet.
  9. Yodaminch Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 6
    As yodajeff pointed out the aotc forum itself has no cliques. So basically shouldn't it be the tmp mods who make this decision? I don't see it in aotc and no one reports any problems in classic trilogy and no one's seen episode 3 so this really is only their decision.
  10. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    I would be happy with that if they didn't have a conflict of interests with the matter.
  11. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    It's not really like Quix or Steve have shown partiality to either the Defense Force or the Sanctuary. And for the records, both of them are "members" of both threads.

  12. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
  13. DarthSeti5 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2001
    star 5
    Ummm . . . hi. I'm the creator of the TPM DF. I started it over two years ago to serve as a place for the fans of TPM to talk about the film that they love in an atmosphere in which negative comments could be eliminated. It was NEVER intended to be a two-sided discussion and the caretaker of the TPM DF knows this. One thread out of the whole forum doesn't seem to infringe on the other discussion threads. And, if someone has a problem with the thread as a pro-TPM area they can simply choose to NOT click the mouse button when it hovers over the link.

    As for the discision on this matter, it is for the TPM moderators alone. They were made moderators because they are the right people for the job. I have trust that QS and Steve won't let a silly "membership" get in the way of making a thoughtful choice.

    ~ DS5
  14. Oakessteve Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 9, 1999
    star 6
    I do think that this is really only a matter Quixotic-Sith and myself can decide on, as we probably know The Phantom Menace forum, it's problems, and it's regulars better than many of the other moderators. Of course, input from the moderators of the other film forums would be much appreicated, but I think we, along with input from the regulars of the forum, are the only ones who can make an informed judgement of it. Yes, I could be considered a member of both threads, but to be honest, it's not like my life would be over if they were locked. I like to think that I'd base my decision on whether or not they contributed to The Phantom Menace forum in a positive way, more than anything.
  15. obi_wan_kanathan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2001
    star 4
    I don't see any reason why the sanctuaries should be closed. I saw the way the TPM forum was before the sanctuaries and it wasn't pretty. When the two sanctuaries were created, it made things much better.

    While the threads originally may not have had the intent of allowing the other side to come in and argue about the film, it has changed into that, much like other threads (including this one) have changed to another purpose.

    Right now, they are great threads and have probably done a lot to help out the TPM forum. They act as community threads for people with similar ideas to bond together, and when one side comes to debate the film with the other side, those two groups also form bonds. This IMO is what makes a forum strong and allows for more intelligent posting.

    Yes, there are people out there that troll about how bad or good the film was. But there's nothing that you can do to get rid of those people except ban them when they troll.

    If these sanctuaries were closed, the bonds and friendships that existed between these groups would be gone. You would soon have a large number of gushers and bashers hating each other again and disrupting the forum. And many newbies that had a certain opinion on the movie would no longer have a place where they could talk about it with people that have that same opinion. I'm sure that a few of these newbies would become "rogue" and troll around the forum talking about how they hate or love the movie. If there was a group for them to go to, they could talk about their opinion with others with similar feelings and gradually work up with actually debating the movie with others.

    I realize that the AOTC forum doesn't have these sanctuaries. But you have to remember that they have similar threads in the Misc board for this. And it's almost certain that TPM was hated by many more people then AOTC was. There are still many people that think that AOTC was a horrible movie, but even most of them don't think that it was as bad as TPM. So even though there are gushers and bashers for AOTC, the distance between most of them is a lot smaller and so there is a lot less backlash against those with different opinions.

    Ultimately, it's up to Quix and Oakessteve to decide what to do as it's their forum. Yeah, they have their own biases, but so does every other mod here. And there's no reason why they shouldn't have their own opinion. The two of them have done so much to help out this forum, that frankly, I think they deserve to decide what to do with their own forum.
  16. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    Go-Mer so you trust Quix and Steve as good mods and to make good decisions, yet you think they would be biased in regards to the DF and Sanctuary. Sound like you DON'T trust them when it's most important for them to do their jobs well.

  17. YodaJeff Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2001
    star 7
    DarthSeti5 said (bold added for emphasis):
    "I'm the creator of the TPM DF. I started it over two years ago to serve as a place for the fans of TPM to talk about the film that they love in an atmosphere in which negative comments could be eliminated. It was NEVER intended to be a two-sided discussion and the caretaker of the TPM DF knows this."

    Binary Sunset (creator of the Basher's Sanctuary) said (bold added for emphasis):
    "Well, I don't encourage gushers to post in the Sanctuary. Indeed, I prefer it when only bashers post there. As the opening post in the Sanctuary states, non-bashing posts are off-topic."

    It looks to me like both threads were created with the intentions of only letting "bashers" or "gushers" post there. Neither of the statements above sound very inviting to discussions to me.
  18. obi_wan_kanathan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2001
    star 4
    Well, I doubt that Carosel orginally intended for this thread to argue about whether the threads should stay or not but it's happening anyways. It doesn't matter what the creator of the thread intends, but rather what the posters intend.
  19. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
    It looks to me like both threads were created with the intentions of only letting "bashers" or "gushers" post there. Neither of the statements above sound very inviting to discussions to me.

    And if the times and the threads never changed, there might be merit in that. I've said it elsewhere, Jeff, there is a lot more to the threads in question than the voices of two posters. Ignoring the opinions of the many folks who have spoken up to say what positive and helpful communities they have become to focus on two posters does the rest a disservice, imho.
  20. royalguard96 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2001
    star 5
    I agree with Jeff. Having two big sanctuaries like that in a forum inherently creates at least the appearance of division within that forum, if not division itself.

    However, just because Binary_Sunset doesn't want "gushers" in there doesn't mean they are explicitly forbidden from posting in there, as long as they aren't intentionally antagonistic. Just the same, "bashers" have always been able to post in the DFs, although you don't see much crossover like that very often in those two particular threads.

    NO forum should be off limits to anyone in the JC. Period. And I think that any intention of having a particular thread off-limits to any person or group of people is bad for the JC.
  21. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
    Just so everyone understands what we're dealing with here:

    The only people who have been forbidden to enter threads are people who have trolled the thread by way of personal insult, group insults, and flame-baiting. They have been barred from participation due to behavior, and *not* due to opinion. The threads are not havens for flaming or trolling - they are just as policed as the rest of the forum. The threads are congregations of similar minds, like the TESB Fan Club, the Royal Handmaiden Society, etc.
  22. Nebucchad Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2002
    star 3
    The only people who have been forbidden to enter threads are people who have trolled the thread by way of personal insult, group insults, and flame-baiting. They have been barred from participation due to behavior, and *not* due to opinion.

    And I thought those were grounds for ban from all JC...
  23. obi_wan_kanathan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2001
    star 4
    They probably were punished in some way. But if you know that a certain user who has been banned before is only going to cause trouble if they enter a thread, why not tell them not to post there anymore? It saves a lot of trouble for the mod and keeps the thread peaceful.
  24. Django211 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 1999
    star 4
    Just thought I would add my two cents. I?ve been coming to these boards since the SE?s were released. I remember all the speculation of what Episode I would be & the grumbling about the title. At that time no one wanted to hate the prequels. When the film came out many people didn?t like it. Notice I didn?t say all or even a majority; in fact the majority seemed to like it. But a lot of people felt let down and wanted to voice their opinions.

    In many instances extreme posters that felt the film was good treated any thread that voiced some disappointment harshly. ?You didn?t get it?, ?the OT had the same problems?, ?the acting is supposed to be inspired by old films?, ?why are you posting here? were just a few of the accusations at disappointed fans. After a while you could be sure that any thread with criticism would have extremists defending the film & eventually fights would break out. This happened on the other side as well. People that loved the film would post threads about things they liked & disappointed posters would come in & tell them they were wrong. Out of these fights the terms gusher & basher came about, both as an insult.

    The sanctuaries were created so that one could voice their opinions without having the thread derail into fighting between posters rather than arguments about the film itself. Its not that differing opinions aren?t welcome its that posters would rather discuss the film than the other posters. There are a handful of people with whom the PT have no faults & seem to take things personally when criticism is aimed at the film or at Lucas. On the other side there are some that feel there is nothing redeeming in the PT. I don?t think one can blame the threads but certain posters who can?t tolerate differing opinions.

    I think the sanctuaries are fine where they are because for many TPM was where the Star Wars saga changed. Many feel AOTC was an improvement over TPM but those that were still let down feel that it merely continued the downward slide that began with TPM. I don?t think there will ever be a big happy community as long as there are people who feel the need to insult or belittle someone?s opinion. Getting rid of these sanctuaries won?t get rid of these opinions, which I think is what some of the more vocal posters really want.
  25. C-3P0 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 20, 2001
    star 4
    I think the suggestion is to move them out of the movie discussion forums and into Star Wars Community.

    The people who want to continue their social clubs will be able to without polarizing the TPM forum. :D
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