Understanding Anakin, & his point of view.

Okay, I made a breakthrough in another forum a while ago now, about how Anakin/Vader thinks, how he changes so much in between episodes.

I: Good Kid
II: Angry Teen
III: Tragic Hero, child-murderer, pregnant wife killer
IV: Villain Pushover, held by a leash
V: Unleashed, has the power
VI: Sympathetic, last-minute Hero

I started off agreeing he changed too much in between episodes, like he was a compeltely different character each time, but then when I was typing I found out I was actually defending Anakin's strange/sudden character "evolution," and then I typed some more and made a breakthrough!

I'd like to just tell you what I came to learn about him, but then you would have no idea where I'm coming from, so I'll just copy down the original post I made in the Prequel forum. I know it's kind of sloppy and unorganized, but that's only because I was thinking while I was writing it up!

And this topic does relate to the entire saga because it is about the thread that ties the different Anakins/Vaders together, in all 6 movies, not just the prequels.

Anakin has a characteristic, that preoved to be his strength, and his fatal flaw.

SORRY it's so long, but here it is, congragulations to anyone who reads the whole thing, youwill (hopefully) completely understand the story of the Chosen One after reading this!







Anakin did NOT want to save Padme, he wanted to OWN Padme.

She was just a possession, Anakin thinks of people as possessions because that is what he was brought up knowing his entire early life, being a slave himself.

When he was left his mother he regretted it, and became miserable in his Jedi training, being away from her. His loyalty was with Qui-gon, because Qui-gon cared for him. He was loyal to the Jedi only because of Qui-gon. He still thinks of himself as a slave to the Jedi, since he has to call Obi-wan master. Anakin might have been the first Jedi not to come from the Republic, and he was old enough that it mattered. The Jedi assumed he already knew Republic beliefs, like equality, but he didn't. They never taught him important beliefs of the Jedi that they assumed he knew, since they knew it their entire lives.

He wanted to be a Jedi for the adventure, for the power to control the fates of slaves, which is the exact opposite of being a Jedi (as Yoda says in Episode 1), and he quickly learns. He feels he threw away his life to the Jedi, but he still wants to be the kind of Jedi he imagined, a hero. And he also has loyalty, coming from being a slave, being loyal to those he doesn't like or understand.

Some people say they shouldn't have made Anakin stay "in love" with Padme for 10 years. But it's a very important point, Anakin felt complete (even though he was a slave) in Episode I, and hangs onto those things.

He hangs onto the memory of his mother, and to the memory of Padme. They are the ONLY ones that cared for him. Becaus ehe has such a sense of loyalty, he wants to sere/protect those he loves. The fireplace scene shows ANakin never got out of his slave mentality, when he professes his love to her, he says he'll do whatever he asks, that is HIS idea of love.

He becomes interested in Padme at first because she's so beautiful, but then learns how caring and compassionate and strong she is. And that she actually cares for him. She reminds him of his mother. So by staying attached to his mother, he stays attached to Padme. Padme falls in love with Anakin because she sees a person with strong moral values, and he is her Savior too.(battle of Naboo, the assassinations) She does not know that Anakin is not loyal to actual moral principles, but he is just loyal to his masters, who job is to protect these moral principles.

The rest of the prequels Anakin spends his time trying to get back to that pre-Jedi life, that sense of security. But he has also grown attached to being free. He wants to make the world the way he wants it, and he wants to be free. That combination leads into greed.

Anakin's transition from episode 2 to 3 is not as big a

 

Excellent post T_M (and I did read the whole thing .)

Some of your views, are ideas that I've had since seeing ROTS at midnight. While some of your ideas are ones that I've never thought of.

Let me first address the idea that I've had in common with you for a while. Anakin's demise is determined by his loyalty to people (who he feels represent principles) rather than the principles themselves. What determines a strong person from a weak person is that that the strong person believes in ideas, while the weak person believes in people. That is really the ethos of Revenge of the Sith--and an excellent lesson to all of us. Anakin sees Palpatine as democracy itself, as the Republic. He has such a trust in the individual ("I'm glad you chose to serve, the Republic NEEDS you.") The Republic doesn't actually need Padme, Anakin just places a great deal of trust in the individual.

His trust in the power of an individual seems reasonable, because the Jedi themselves have such great trust in him.

When Skywalker turns, he isn't torn between good and evil. He is torn between protecting the friend he is loyal to, and the Jedi Master who never trusted or liked him (while also having Padme in mind.) That is why he turns on Mace, that is why he is forced to join Palpatine...in some ways anyway.

Your idea about how Anakin doesn't understand most concepts, is brilliant. That is one thing I never really thought about.

I do disagree with you on one point, Obi-Wan. You've stated that Obi-Wan didn't love him, I disagree.

"You were my brother Anakin, I loved you!"
-Obi-Wan Kenobi Revenge of the Sith

Obi-Wan did love him, despite being a Jedi. I'm convinced that if Obi-Wan were fighting Palpatine, Anakin would've never turned. If Obi-Wan had remained on Coruscant, galactic history would be very foolish.

The Jedi Council makes two critical mistakes in the PT, they separate Obi-Wan and Anakin, Kenobi and Skywalker twice. Both times, there are great consequences for those mistakes.

-Seldon

 

Yup, Midnight showing was amazing, it's true that Anakin thought of her as a possesion, he acted liked he owned her soul in the novelization. HE got too wound up in what he was doing and was'nt thinking straight, I think that has something to do with his fall.

 

I think that Obi-Wan really loved Anakin. Obi-Wan did whatever he could under the circumstances, but Anakin was truly too big of a task for him. Obi-Wan reminds me of some parents of criminal teens or something, who are decent people, and do the best they can, but their kids still turn out wrong. Obi-Wan _did_ love Anakin, but Anakin could not appreciate his love, because he was spoiled from childhood.

 

Well, not necessary spoiled, he was a Slave, I don't think you can get spoiled from that. Even if your the only child.

 

maybe obi wan should have told him sooner that he loved him instead of saying it right before he leaves him for dead...

 

Excellent stuff TM!

I believe you are definitely on to something. At the same time, it kind of meshes with the Anakin Force Ghost we see at the end of ROTJ, I think.

Anakin shows who he really is, his spiritual form, the one who was loyal. He shows Luke that Anakin.

More later

 

The thing is, he shouldn't have to say it.

If Anakin hadn't been so jealous/suspicious of him he'd have known it, and a large part of him definitely does. Padme does the same, she doesn't tell him she loves him until they're about to die. She also contineously tells Anakin how much Obi-Wan cares for him. The fact that Anakin even needs to HEAR it instead of realizing it himself shows how disillusioned he already is regarding people/love.

- O_F

 

Interesting post... I most say. I liked most of what you write, but the conclution I dont agree.

Anakin wasnt 100% loyal... if he was 100% loyal and searched as a true Jedi the truth in himself he would have found out that he was was wrong, that he time to time let the dark feelings run through him.

Sadly he is a disturbed person, first because of the loss of his mother. and second the loss of the only Jedi he looked up to, Qui-Gon. He was like a father to him, the one he never had.

Yes, the Jedi councel make big mistakes... I believe, sooner or later the Jedi order would breake up anyway, because I sence ther were problems among them. Even when Jedi`es are good, they are not perfect.

During the training of Anakin they doesnt seem to concider a minute his disturbed past and loss of important person in his life. The good thing is that Obi-Wan takes care of him, but later the councel split them up, and Palpatine are able to a influence on Anakin. The councel know that Anakin are a powerful and strong person, maybe they believe Anakin are too strong, and thereby wait to find out what to do with him. They wait too long. This is the number one mistake they do, beside of spliting up Anakin and Obi-Wan.

This is actually one of the best part of ROTS, where we see that Anakin become a piece of a greater political game. Palpatine whants him, so do Jedi councel, but Palpatine act quicker.

In short, Anakin joined the Dark side because the Jedi councel, witch still was responsible for Anakin failed theyr task to make him feel like one of them.


---
Ascaaear
"May the fork be with you"

 

I also think Anakin's entire life story is a lot like Ebenezer Scrooge's.

Like how Scrooge was an orphan, raised in an uncaring border school, only knew one parent, lost his sister, wanted money to support a life with his love, and that money is what drove her away, lives a life of greed, and then is redeemed after reflecting on his life and by the caring of a child.

Very similar.

 

i think he needed to hear those exact words...

 

If Obi-Wan really loved Anakin, he certainly had a great talent to hide this.

"Why do I sense we've picked up another pathetic life-form?"
"The boy is dangerous - they all sense it, why can't you?"

At least for EP I and II: He didn't care for Anakin. He didn't want him to become a Jedi. Just as Anakin claimed, he indeed was JEALOUS of him. He only accepted to train him because of the promise to Qui-Gon Jinn.

I really don't see that he loved him - imo, if he did, then it was just his projection of the Jedi-padawan who's success praised his master's instructions. That's what he "loved" about him. He had no love for the person Anakin.

 

Before he actually thought he ?knew? Anakin, he was like that. But when Qui Gon asked him to train him, I believe Obi Wan wanted Anakin to really be a great Jedi ?you will be a Jedi, I promise?.

I think Obi Wan wanted was Anakin to reach his potential to be a Jedi, and a fully fledged one, but to be patient. Obi Wan was generally following the Jedi Council and felt by Anakin following the Jedi?s superiors, one could attain reaching Master status.

Unfortunately, like all the other superiors, they did not see the manipulation of Palpatine and influence he had with Anakin. By the time they warned him about the ?fishy? things about Palpatine (which they could not see in anycase), already Anakin was buttered up with talks of being ?the greatest of all Jedi? ?You don?t need guidance? .

The Jedi could not see the Darkside that was already pulling strings around them, just as much as missing the concentration they should have had on Anakin. Perhaps they should have given him some encouragement, but the Jedi failed that.

I think Obi Wan had no other choice but to adhere to the Council?s ways, upon getting his Mastership and approval to train Anakin. By the system, Obi Wan could only nurture Anakin so much. If you think about it Qui Gon, who did not follow the system so minutely like his former apprentice, and for that may arguably have been a better mentor. No telling exactly how he could have trained Anakin, alas being killed, and to only handover that commitment to Obi Wan.

 

Something that just crossed my mind....

What if Anakin never knew he was the Chosen One? I believe the story wouldnt be so tragic. I think something happends to a person when they are told that he are going to have a importan impact on the whole galaxy.

Try imagine if some told you that when you turn about 30, your friends will betray you, people will hate you, you will be puniched, beatet to almost death, you will be nailed to a cross alive. They tell you will me Messiah that would save all people on earth... And on top of all because you have done nothing wrong at all.

I bet most people would freak out totaly...

With such a task Anakin are put on himself, I dont think it will turn out well no matter how you put it.... either the person would need more and mor, be arogant and selfminded, because he know he are a person with huge powers,
or he will try not following the path at all, and fail it totaly.


If Anakin never knew what he was put on, he might not be that selfminded and arrogant, as Dooko also tells him...

 

I agree that Obi-wan and Anakin shouldn't have been seperated in ROTS but in AOTC, I think that helped Anakin, because other wise he probably would have never found his mother's body, he would have gone back to Tatoine and looked for her and it would have been too late, she would have never lived to see Anakin. And, if they hadn't been seperated then Anakin never would have fallen in love.

 

Tion_Meddon, what a fantastic post! It has been a while since i have reads thoughts that have opened my mind and challenged my assumptions as much as yours! While not everyone, myself included, may agree 100% with all that you have said, the ideas put forth are much appreciated. You've presented one of the most on-the-mark analysis of Anakins character.

 

Anakin wanted to OWN Padme? WT*??

If that was completely true, then Padme wanted to possess Anakin, just as much as he wanted to possess her. How else do you explain her fear of revealing their marriage? If what you say is true, then you might as well accuse Obi-Wan of being possessive about Qui-Gon. Most of his worst decisions came from his inability to emotionally deal with his former masterâ??s death. You might as well accuse both Yoda and Mace of being possessive of the Jedi Order. Perhaps Palpatine was right about the Jedi Council being jealously possessive of their power.

I get the feeling that youâ??re trying to make Anakin out to be some kind of mentally disturbed person. In the end, he was no more or less disturbed than the other characters. Like them, he had his own character flaws, and fate simply landed him in the role of Sith apprentice. But it could have easily been any other Jedi Knight. Look at Count Dooku.

You want to know what Anakin's main problem was? He never learned how to balance both the light and dark sides of his nature. He was trained by Obi-Wan to be the model Jedi Knight - something that was not part of his nature (and there was nothing wrong with that). Even worse, he have never bothered to attempt to learn to balance both sides of his nature (unlike Qui-Gon, who could have taught him this). In short, Anakin never bothered to try to be his own man. And the Jedi Council did not help with their insistence that he be a model Jedi Knight.

 

up

 

Anakin didn't to own Padme. He did, however, think of their relationship in terms of domination and submition (I will do whatever you ask). Although it contribuited to his fall, I don't think loyalty is all that made him turn. Part of it was greed, part compassion (Palpatine and Padme), and part was that everything happened so fast.

Obi-Wan shouldn't have to say it, and I don't think he would have anyway because of the no attachments rule, but I think it would have helped Anakin. Sometimes it's just nice to hear those things.

 

What determines a strong person from a weak person is that that the strong person believes in ideas, while the weak person believes in people.

I have to say that I find this view a bit dogmatic. I think a person should act from the heart, whether he/she believes in another person or an idea. I don't think there is a definite answer on what a person should believe in. It should depend upon the individual.

 

Sadly he is a disturbed person, first because of the loss of his mother. and second the loss of the only Jedi he looked up to, Qui-Gon. He was like a father to him, the one he never had.

I think people think WAY too much about Anakin's supposed relationship with Qui-Gon. He barely knew him. How long did they know each other, days? He was with Obi-Wan for YEARS. I would say that he most certainly "looked up" to Ob-Wan (and even Yoda). I always thought that part of Anakin's problem was that he looked up to Obi-Wan so much and was jealous because he wanted to be a "perfect" Jedi like he thought he was.

 

Good point.

 

Tion_Meddon: Excellent points excellently put. I was quite excited reading your post, and I think your points are well thought out and make a lot of sense. Especially regarding Anakin's lack of the inherent "Republic" knowledge and his equating of love with ownership, due to his slavery.

It's not possible to overemphasize Anakin's slave upbringing. Anakin is a very strong character who- during the most formative years of his life- was lorded over, repressed and subjugated. Anakin could not find a healthy way to deal with this, so- like most repressive neuroses- the issue winds up rearing its ugly head in different ways for years to come. All his life, Anakin pines for freedom. Not simply to live his life the way he wants it, but to be utterly unchained- unfettered by rules or prohibitions of any sort, as he equates them all with slavery. (His reaction is fairly similar to the common tale of a person coming from an uber-strict home life going to college.) He has lived his life in fear and anger (and anger AT his fear), and has a pathological fear of helplessness and the obsessive need to avoid it. This underlying issue (and his emotional, black-or-white personality) was very effectively exploited by Palpatine, all the while seductively appealing to Anakin's high ideals and principals. Thus Anakin desired power and Palpatine gave it to him. Thus Anakin wanted justice and Palpatine showed him a way to it. Anakin also needed love and the KNOWLEDGE that he was loved. Unfortunately- as mentioned above- not only did the Jedi Order prove to be almost as confined and rigid as slavery had been, it lacked even the emotional fulfillment [love] provided by his mother when on Tatooine. Qui-Gon might have supplied this- Anakin surely believed so. But upon his death, Obi-Wan was unable to fill this gap. (See below.) Certainly unable to live up to the hallowed shrine of Qui-Gon that Anakin has envisioned as memory. (As mentioned above, Anakin holds on to people who he feels have cared for him in the past- almost certainly picturing them as the perfect ideals he saw as a boy with imperfect, child-like sight... as opposed to real people with faults and foibles.)



~Obi-wan claims he at least did, but he hardly ever showed it.
~Obi-Wan did love him, despite being a Jedi.
~Maybe Obi Wan should have told him sooner that he loved him instead of saying it right before he leaves him for dead...
~I really don't see that he loved him

Speaking for myself, my younger brother and I have a relationship very similar to Anakin and Obi-Wan, respectively. (Now, I love my brother dearly, but our fights are somewhat legendary among friends and family. Thankfully, we have never come to blows while surrounded by lava. In fact, now that he's at college and out of my hair on a day-to-day basis, we're getting along fabulously! ) Obi-Wan is a very practical, pragmatic person, used to acting and reacting in a very rational, logical manner. Anakin is all emotion and instinct. When they are having a good day, the differences balance each other's deficiencies. On bad days, however, they find an utter inability to communicate. Obi-Wan speaks to Anakin rationally, expecting Anakin to understand. Unfortunately, due to rank (and probably general personality too) he also exudes an undeniably superior or at least patronizing tone, which- as mentioned above- seriously irritates Anakin's once-enslaved psyche. Anakin makes decisions either rashly or without serious forethought. He feels very strongly and acts and judges accordingly, and can't understand why everyone chastises him for it. Obi-Wan is not an emoter, and is by nature cautious in the realms of passion and emotion. This inherent tendency is further ingrained by the rigid, emotionally crippling Jedi training. He has looked out for Anakin and taught him and rescued him and joked with him... and figures that is enough to show his love. But Anakin needs more than that. So he pushes. And Obi-Wan either deflects the attack or turns it right back ont

 

that was a superb post.
unfortunately i agree with it, so there isn't much worth of opinion that i can relate here.
but maybe upping this will help.

 

Jaded_Girl posted some thoughts:
It's not possible to overemphasize Anakin's slave upbringing. Anakin is a very strong character who- during the most formative years of his life- was lorded over, repressed and subjugated. Anakin could not find a healthy way to deal with this, so- like most repressive neuroses- the issue winds up rearing its ugly head in different ways for years to come. All his life, Anakin pines for freedom. Not simply to live his life the way he wants it, but to be utterly unchained- unfettered by rules or prohibitions of any sort, as he equates them all with slavery.

To a point I agree with this. The hopes he would have had for a life more free once he was delivered from slavery, would have been strong. He was however a slave only till he was nine or ten, so he didn't grow up exactly under slavery for too long a time for it to have galvanised an absolute need for unfettered freedom (though I'm not advocating that he had a thrilling time being a slave). What does happen from that point on however, is that he is inducted into the Jedi way of life, which one can argue was just another form of slavery, with the rigid codes of behaviour expected of all the Jedi initiates. The two combined had a more profound effect than one or the other imo. What I mean by this is that once someone is freed from slavery, they do think their life is now their own and they are free to make their own choices as to how this life is then to be lived. But, we are talking about a small boy here, and as such, he would have been taken into the care of an adult guardian. In Anakin's case, he was taken under the wing of a Jedi knight (Qui-Gon Jin), having been recognised as a strong Force kid with potential, and in QGJ's opinion, perhaps the chosen one as well. From that point Anakin's life was pretty much dictated (again), as he really had no where else to go, though he seemed to want to be a Jedi, so we have to accept that choice for the character. This sudden removal from this form of slavery is underscored by the sad reality that he leaves his mother behind and I believe there is some guilt there on his part that never goes away (and must surely come to a head when he starts getting the dreams in AOTC).

What I find when I watch the PT, is that though Anakin does display all the rebelliousness of youth and an unwillingness to adhere too strictly to the tenets of model Jedi behaviour, he still wants to be told what to do to some extent. He wants to please people and he looks to people for guidance, whether that be Padme, Obi-Wan or Palpatine. He may not like the answers he gets sometimes, especially from Obi-Wan, but he still has the respect for these people and wants to do right by them. Now this is where I think the slave issue comes into its own. I don't think Anakin puts his foot down enough. You don't get that sense that he is in total command of his own sense of self sometimes, where he wants to be, his place in the universe. He's not confident in making his own choices, (I think darth_frared you've said things in the past along that line, and I agree) and that's classic for someone never taught to do so, or thinks that he can't because the Jedi code overides all in his opinion. That's what living under a rigid authority can do to a person. Anakin's not that confident in bringing up the objectionable aspects of the code, to assert himself, that's too hard to do, so he just breaks the rules when he feels he must, it's certainly easier than trying to explain or defend why you feel the need to do so. In Anakin's mind, he probably had his justifications, to him it would have been a simple case of this is how I survive in the universe and what's right for me.

He has lived his life in fear and anger (and anger AT his fear), and has a pathological fear of helplessness and the obsessive need to avoid it. This underlying issue (and his emotional, black-or-white personality) was very effectively exploited by Palpatine, all the while seductively appealing to Anakin's high ideals and principals. Th