Understanding Anakin, & his point of view.

about his power issue:
i think there is a strong undercurrent of wanting to be able to control things. as a slave he wasn't in control, as a jedi he isn't in control, he cannot see his mom, he cannot go where he pleases, he cannot do much of anything, without either consulting the council or obi-wan first. that's not autonomy, that's oppression.
and it furthers this idea that had he been there, he might have prevented worse things from happening.
anyway, that said, preventing death from happening is about as extreme as it can get. it's downright irrational, but it's also a very human idea. what gets confused is that he doesn't want power to dominate people but instead wants to protect them. i think there is a crucial difference and you hit on it as well.
he confuses these things himself on mustafar, suddenly it's about a new empire when before it was all about the irrational yet so irresistible idea of wanting to stop death.
for me it really boils down to having more control over things: when he's not properly appointed to the council it bugs him, among other things, that he isn't told why it is. for someone who is continually rejected (for his age, for his unpredictability etc) it must be heartbreaking to once again find that there's nothing much to do, that he is utterly at their mercy with this. patience, yes, but for how long? when will they deem him worthy? why are they making an exception etc?

emotionally, and this gets easily overlooked, the jedi act like his parents but continually abuse their position. they never make him feel worthy or part of the family.

 

darth_frared wrote:

about his power issue:
i think there is a strong undercurrent of wanting to be able to control things. as a slave he wasn't in control, as a jedi he isn't in control, he cannot see his mom, he cannot go where he pleases, he cannot do much of anything, without either consulting the council or obi-wan first. that's not autonomy, that's oppression.
and it furthers this idea that had he been there, he might have prevented worse things from happening.

This control issue, as I see it, wrt Anakin, all I can say is thank the force for the clone wars, because this event in the galaxy is really the making of him. In this capacity he has a great deal of control and autonomy. He gets to be a leader, give orders, and he's looked up to and admired for his skills on the battlefield and as a pilot. His war exploits were an outlet for him in this regard, and it probably tempered his anxieties about the Jedi council and living under the yoke of the Jedi code, etc. His biggest problems are when he gets back to Coruscant, and again realises how little control he has of his life, made worse by Palps on one side using him as a pawn, and the Jedi council on the other doing the same. Its interesting now to think about the marriage of Padme and Anakin in AOTC. I think when he married Padme, the actual marrying part was a stand right there. He could have just continued to see her, but the marriage is a symbol of taking charge in a way, for Anakin, imo, solidifying it in a way that felt more like real control over his life. It was a choice he makes, and he's got the piece of paper to prove it.

anyway, that said, preventing death from happening is about as extreme as it can get. it's downright irrational, but it's also a very human idea. what gets confused is that he doesn't want power to dominate people but instead wants to protect them. i think there is a crucial difference and you hit on it as well.

Yep, that difference is so important, and it speaks to the humanity in the character as well, and his need for personal relationships so strong that he wants to resort to such measures to keep them in existence. This is one of the reasons why I Have so much compassion for the character of Anakin, and truth be told, it makes him a very romantic and darkly gothic antihero imo.

he confuses these things himself on mustafar, suddenly it's about a new empire when before it was all about the irrational yet so irresistible idea of wanting to stop death.

Dark side starting to over take his thoughts and objectives there. Its twisting him and the circumstances around him are not helping as the two closest people to him are telling him that he?s done wrong, and its damning, and he just won?t hear of it, because if nothing else, whatever he does, he thinks he?s right and noble about it. Too many things have happened so quickly for him that he?s not processed anything too much yet, though he's shed a tear or two already, and there's got to be mental break down beginning right there on Mustafar.

for me it really boils down to having more control over things: when he's not properly appointed to the council it bugs him, among other things, that he isn't told why it is. for someone who is continually rejected (for his age, for his unpredictability etc) it must be heartbreaking to once again find that there's nothing much to do, that he is utterly at their mercy with this. patience, yes, but for how long? when will they deem him worthy? why are they making an exception etc?

He wants to think that he?s on the council due to his merits. Palps endorsement of him speaks to that, Anakin doesn?t know Palps has ulterior motives at this point. He gets to the council, and of course the Jedi see it much more differently, in every way, and yes, as you say, it is rejection, as well as grudging acceptance, which they don?t bother to hide in front of him. It?s quite abusive, passively so. But the thing that would hurt the most, if I was Anakin, was the sense he must have that he just doesn?

 

How can you develop trust and a sense of fellowship when you are constantly under scrutiny and outright discriminated against for suspect motives? If you watch Revenge of the Sith in particularly, Bam! Bam! Bam! The Jedi Masters shoot down Anakin during every counsel and motion.

And what does Palpatine do? Embraces Anakin like a son and confidant. Treats him like a human being for once. But plants seeds of dissenting ideas and notions. Invites him to take a little risk, trust and faith may increase his life and those he loves (obsesses over) namely Padme.

Anakin has always been a confused and disturbed man. Too emotional. Perfect pickings for a conniving vampire such as Palpatine.

And what do the Jedi consistantly do, affront Anakin in his very presence and the presence of others. Not softly or gently but rather bluntly and matter-of-factly. And meanwhile, Palpatine tells him what a gifted and marvelous individual Anakin is and makes use of his political powers to assist Anakin in wonderous ways. Winning Anakin's trust and promising easier solutions. Leading Anakin to the Darkside by-the-hand.

What Mace Windu said to Anakin once Anakin identifies Palpatine as a Sith Lord couldn't have rang truer. He lacked finesse and wise discretion for the imbalanced condition of Anakin. So thus the Jedi Master wrote his own epitaph. He uttered his own death wish.

The greater part of me completely sympathizes with Anakin, his emotions cloud his mind and others confuse his heart. He just wants to get from A to C, nevermind B. I don't really consider Anakin a hero but those Jedi helped create this monster.

 

Thank you, darth_frared and Dark_Disciple! *bows*


Dark_Disciple: What does happen from that point on however, is that he is inducted into the Jedi way of life, which one can argue was just another form of slavery, with the rigid codes of behaviour expected of all the Jedi initiates. The two combined had a more profound effect than one or the other imo. What I mean by this is that once someone is freed from slavery, they do think their life is now their own and they are free to make their own choices as to how this life is then to be lived... From that point Anakin's life was pretty much dictated (again), as he really had no where else to go, though he seemed to want to be a Jedi, so we have to accept that choice for the character. This sudden removal from this form of slavery is underscored by the sad reality that he leaves his mother behind and I believe there is some guilt there on his part that never goes away (and must surely come to a head when he starts getting the dreams in AOTC).

An excellent point. You are absolutely right. This "double slavery" of sorts would undoubtably prove far more traumatic than a single instance. It makes me feel even more sorry for Anakin.



Sure, to a former slave, and to someone who is not that hot on Jedi restrictions, power may have been at the back of Anakin's mind, somewhere in the what would it be like part of his brain, but I still think this really came later for Anakin, once he started to be infected by the dark side and made vulnerable to Palps' manipulations and beautiful lies....But, originally the power was for keeping Padme alive. He even says something similar in AOTC, when he tells Padme that someday he will be (more powerful) and he will be able to "keep people from dying". What a thing to want to have?! Not power over people but power to keep people alive. Anakin was always different.

Yes. Like all people, Anakin's is a multi-faceted and deeply layered personality, and it makes Palpatine's manipulations all the more impressive because they DO work on so many levels of Anakin's psyche all at once. His reluctance with letting those he cares about die could definately be traced to his separation from his mother- the only source of love and concern that was not materially based. He's then thrust into a life where he was encouraged not to emote or build lasting personal relationships (further compounded by a certain amount of distrust and hesitancy- especially demonstrated by the Jedi Council... the highest ranking body in the order, mind you!) under a mentor whose personality has been discussed above. Unable to change a fundemental personality trait, and not taught by the Jedi how to HEALTHILY deal with and MATURE these emotions, his need for that human affirmation remains immature and becomes dangerous as he grows more powerful and dictated by his emotional nature.



On Obi-Wan's patronising tone, I'm not sure he does this deliberately, it just may seem so because he talks calmly and measuredly, and is not prone to emoting as you say. I have friends like this, and though they are quite tempered I don't ever get the sense that they are being patronising, but I do wonder about what can get them worked up though.

Oh, yes, quite. I hadn't meant to imply that he does it deliberately, or at least not all the time. Mostly, I believe it's like you said, his manner of speech. However when he is feeling frustrated [esp. at Anakin] it edges a bit into patronizing and superior tones- again, an understandable reaction for a rational-type to have [esp. to an emotional-type.] When emotion is your primary force (no pun intended) the faults and failings are emotional: ex. lust and anger. When logic is your primary force, your faults are more likely to run in the "pride" spectrum- colder, more self-satisfied faults, and often harder to discern.



Obi-Wan does have a demeanour that suggests that he's not that open to heart to heart conversation. I do get the sense that Obi

 

this could turn out to be quite a random post.

he has very strong obedience issues. that was part of being a slave and having to obey unless he wanted to be killed.
so, yeah, the very first thing that would have to be done is to accept him with all his problems. he's very different from the rest of the jedi, why not take this as a learning opportunity.
i think it also has to do with having no previous experience with speaking up for himself. he might well be participating in negotiations without ever feel the need to get into the trouble himself. 'sides while changing the rules might make his life less complicated, it would also change things and he might just be really uncomfortable with this. it's a strong theme, this not wanting to change things, although as a character of course he changes most things, he's the agent bringing about the change, which he fears himself.

i've been going back and forth here. if attachment means that i'll care about people i love and that i don't want them to die, it's about the most natural thing i can think of.
i want none of my loved ones to die.
what keeps anakin and me apart, i hope, is that 1) i'm not offered the thing itself and 2) that i can rationalize that death is part of life. that doesn't make it easier to bear or easier to understand, it still has to be felt and experienced to be understood. which is why yoda's advice is off. mourning is exactly the kind of thing that allows us to let go.

got to get this off my chest: in the beginning of aotc he is anything but measured. he nearly has a heart attack it's interesting that everyone in the scene is embarrassed at this. and you could interpret it two-ways: they are embarrassed because anakin spoke out of turn or they are embarrassed because obi-wan reacts so unmeasuredly (not sure this even a word)

classic, i think. maybe it's really more due to a personality thing. but then it'd have to do with being a reflective practitioner (gah!) which they give us time and again. you reflect to the point of neurosis, but if you can stop before that, you'll be richly rewarded with knowing things about yourself and how people react to that. obi-wan doesn't do that, he just assumes the master stance and everything goes from there. would he just once think how he makes anakin react that way... ah, things might be very different.
and so for me it's a tie between acknowledging that obi-wan is a good man and means well and simultaneously seeing that whatever good he means is

 

darth_frared extended further this interesting thread with the following:

he has very strong obedience issues. that was part of being a slave and having to obey unless he wanted to be killed.
so, yeah, the very first thing that would have to be done is to accept him with all his problems. he's very different from the rest of the jedi, why not take this as a learning opportunity.

Yes, the obedience issues have to be taken into account. I really believe that's its this that drives him to secrecy wrt his marriage and anything else not likely to be looked upon favourably by the Jedi order. He doesn't want to be disobedient, but he has to live also according to his own sense of what fulfills him, what keeps him going in this crazy universe that is the GFFA. I still think it's the path of least resistance for him. It's far easier not to rock the boat by coming out into the open and being honest. It would mark him as being 'disobedient' which he doesn't want to be, because even he wants to feel like he belongs to something (i.e. the order, since it took him in as a boy), but it's problematic because he has this need for personal relationships and just being related to on a one on one level, which clashes with the practices of that order that he is a member of.

He is definitely different from the others, and he must know this, and that's got to feel uncomfortable for him, with every Jedi under one roof. As a Jedi newly minted later in life compared to normal Jedi, one would have thought that the Jedi would try to avoid any future problems with attachments etc, by embracing the boy properly and quickly making sure that he is adapting to his new situation and educating him on what is expected of one who has decided to take up the calling and become a Jedi with its inherent codes and its practices. It seems like he was just thrown in and it was sink or swim. Oh, I'm sure that he got the requisite education and training that all the other Jedi kids got, but somewhere there, he needed special or extra curricular tutoring on handling the personal stuff that ends up getting him into trouble later. Yearning for his mother and the dreams about her pain/death and then Padme later on and what follows from that. The emotional stuff either wasn't anticipated as a potential problem for the future or it was simply ignored. Either way, that was a big bad by the Jedi powers that be.

i think it also has to do with having no previous experience with speaking up for himself. he might well be participating in negotiations without ever feel the need to get into the trouble himself. 'sides while changing the rules might make his life less complicated, it would also change things and he might just be really uncomfortable with this. it's a strong theme, this not wanting to change things, although as a character of course he changes most things, he's the agent bringing about the change, which he fears himself.

When it came to negotiations, I did get the impression that this only occurred in the company of Obi-Wan, and he was the one directing them, not Anakin. The being uncomfortable with change theme is strong as you say, Shmi says it (in TPM), even Padme says it when she starts saying the baby will change their lives (in ROTS), and he doesn't really want to hear it let alone deal with it. Yeah, the irony is that he brings about the biggest changes himself. I think he's already anticipated that the rules just weren't going to be changed, hence the lying and deception. And even though, keeping the secrets was a hassle, far less complicated then having to come before the council and explain why and how you broke the rules. He did speak up when he had to, look at AOTC, he clashes with Obi in front of Pads and her staff quite openly and unashamedly, but by the time ROTS came around, the stuff he was hiding was big. He did say in the beginning of ROTS that he was 'tired of all this deception', but I saw that as just being exhausted from the war and Pads kind of withholding which added to the frustration of their sit

 

dark disciple offered some insight into a complicated relationship

As a Jedi newly minted later in life compared to normal Jedi, one would have thought that the Jedi would try to avoid any future problems with attachments etc, by embracing the boy properly and quickly making sure that he is adapting to his new situation and educating him on what is expected of one who has decided to take up the calling and become a Jedi with its inherent codes and its practices. It seems like he was just thrown in and it was sink or swim. Oh, I'm sure that he got the requisite education and training that all the other Jedi kids got, but somewhere there, he needed special or extra curricular tutoring on handling the personal stuff that ends up getting him into trouble later. Yearning for his mother and the dreams about her pain/death and then Padme later on and what follows from that. The emotional stuff either wasn't anticipated as a potential problem for the future or it was simply ignored.

agreed. especially the part with 'embracing'.

i don't think it's about extra education in that sense. it's about catering to an emotional need. and i feel really weird writing this, like being *emotionally* available for someone is such a big thing. it seems it's something that would have to have a place with the curriculum in order to be recognized.
for me, *his* personal stuff is so text book, you don't need any degree for figuring out he's going to have problems. and yet it seems they have never thought about it.
which makes me think either they are stupid and have no knowledge of the human psyche or they didn't care. and both alternatives aren't terribly flattering for the order.

He did speak up when he had to, look at AOTC, he clashes with Obi in front of Pads and her staff quite openly and unashamedly

the way i see it is that it's not before the council. the way i see it: the council is like an extermely righteous dad, very very hard to please. so, mustering the courage to speak to them is harder than acting up against obi.
i realize that this isn't very much consistent. i want somebody to explain it to me *shakes fist*
to me it looks like obi-wan's authority can be undermined, but the council's cannot, maybe they are less personal (haha) and he doesn't meet them on a daily basis. so, less confidence with them. whereas with obi-wan he knows him better and knows his weaknesses.

by the time ROTS came around, the stuff he was hiding was big.

i do agree there's a progression. the stress has increased. so, mentioning his mom's death would probably entail some questions about the tusken slaughter, ... etc. the stuff in the beginning of aotc is more sort of innocent and then developed into things that he thought were beyond being dealt with. it happens a lot.
it's usually about keeping in mind that no matter how big the crime is, you can be good again, you can be redeemed, which is prolly why we came up with this all-forgiving concept of god, but then anakin has trouble acknowledging for himself that he can actually get out of those contracts.

Poor Obi-Wan never gets to be human

well. sorry, please understand my criticism not as asking obi-wan to become a machine. but as a reminder (a not very gentle one as it is) that the action we take (in speaking, too) are always part of the reaction we get. interaction is *between* people. so, by acknowledging that anakin is disrespectful and such, one would have to take into account that obi-wan's dealing with him also invites the response. if i was present, i would ask the same kind of reflection from anakin. as it is, no one bothers to do this kind of thing.
they don't even heed obi-wan saying he feels anakin isn't ready, which is pure neglect on the council's part. obi-wan is with him more than any of them has ever been and they just ignore that.

In AOTC Obi does rather use the old I'm the master and you will obey routine for sure, but there were times in that film too where there was praise and cooperation.

 

darth_frared hands back the microphone over to me again:

i don't think it's about extra education in that sense. it's about catering to an emotional need. and i feel really weird writing this, like being *emotionally* available for someone is such a big thing. it seems it's something that would have to have a place with the curriculum in order to be recognized.
for me, *his* personal stuff is so text book, you don't need any degree for figuring out he's going to have problems. and yet it seems they have never thought about it.
which makes me think either they are stupid and have no knowledge of the human psyche or they didn't care. and both alternatives aren't terribly flattering for the order.

Yes, agreed about being, or not being, in this case emotionally available. Certain individuals aren?t naturally, but someone in the order should have been a bit clued up. In some ways though they are portrayed as monks, they?re not very spiritual at all it seems. They fight when they have to as do the sith, but they (The Jedi) need to be distinguished more from the Sith by being naturally more benevolent and caring and personable, I would have thought. They are the supposed good guys after all. They?re just not the way that I would want them to be in any case. They always talk about using one?s feelings, and searching one?s feelings, so does that just mean feeling one?s midichlorians getting jiggy with the Force, or emotions as feelings. GL is ambiguous on this.

He did speak up when he had to, look at AOTC, he clashes with Obi in front of Pads and her staff quite openly and unashamedly

the way i see it is that it's not before the council. the way i see it: the council is like an extermely righteous dad, very very hard to please. so, mustering the courage to speak to them is harder than acting up against obi.
i realize that this isn't very much consistent. i want somebody to explain it to me *shakes fist*

No, that?s fine, it does make sense. It?s harder to come up against a whole room of Obi-Wan like Jedis than just one Obi-Wan. It makes sense, and the powerlessness that this instils in Anakin (that he feels he can?t really go there) is what leads to his frustrations and the clashes he has with Obi-Wan and bitching to Palps about how the Jedi exclude him etc.

to me it looks like obi-wan's authority can be undermined, but the council's cannot, maybe they are less personal (haha) and he doesn't meet them on a daily basis. so, less confidence with them. whereas with obi-wan he knows him better and knows his weaknesses.

I?d go with that too. It?s a whole combination of reasons for why he doesn?t speak up at crucial moments in his life, and that?s a big one too. I think he also would enjoy getting a rise out of Obi-Wan too, I would think, from time to time.

by the time ROTS came around, the stuff he was hiding was big.

i do agree there's a progression. the stress has increased. so, mentioning his mom's death would probably entail some questions about the tusken slaughter, ... etc. the stuff in the beginning of aotc is more sort of innocent and then developed into things that he thought were beyond being dealt with. it happens a lot.
it's usually about keeping in mind that no matter how big the crime is, you can be good again, you can be redeemed, which is prolly why we came up with this all-forgiving concept of god, but then anakin has trouble acknowledging for himself that he can actually get out of those contracts.

Hmm the tusken slaughter, I think Yoda knew more about that then he let on. Why why why did he not pursue that with Anakin, I will never understand. That was too big to ignore, and then the clone wars begin and it?s allowed to let slide. He should have called in Anakin and Obi-Wan and they all should have really talked this through. Yoda in the PTs is just not the sage he is in the OT (he seems to ?get it? in his final years of life, so that?s 800 odd years wasted there). After this, as there were

 

The other Jedi were taken away from their families when they were very young, and have been taught to be emotionally resigned. None of them had the exposure that Anakin had, and couldn't really understand him. I think Obi-Wan tried to be sensitive about Anakin's feelings. In the begining of AOTC just after Padme left when Anakin was talking to Jar-Jar, Obi-Wan only tells him to be mindful of his thoughts and when Padme falls later on Obi-Wan convinces Anakin to go on with him, but it stays at that. Obi-Wan doesn't report these incidents to the Council (nor does he disscus them with Anakin, which maybe he should have). However, in oreder to *understand* emotions, you have to feel them for yourself, and in that regard, none of the Jedi could help Anakin.

I wouldn't say that Obi-Wan's authority can be undermined, but that a)Anakin is more comfortable with Obi-Wan and feels like can contradict him if nessacay, and b)he knows that Obi-Wan will forgive him, even if e does someting wrond. That's not the case with the Council. Anakin values Obi-Wan's opinion more than the Council's, but the Council is the body that he has to answer to, so he has to go against Obi-Wan rather than the Council for that reason

 

*grabs the mike and starts a new round of karaoke*

anakin had too much exposure to everything for a ten-year-old. much too much. but he knew the ways of tatooine. he knows who he is there, he has his mom who takes care of him.
i do think obi-wan tried his best. but it was just no use. i do think that the difference between them is not simply overcome by the occasional talk. none of them had the disposition to wonder why anakin was who he was. which ties in with the next...

yes, totally. you'd have to have an idea of what he's going through to be able to walk in his shoes.
we all know death is coming one day, but so far for me it's a rather abstract notion. i haven't seen a dead body and if people around me mourn their loved ones i feel like i cannot relate to them very much because i don't know what it feels like. it takes a lot of effort to feel it, too. and with the jedi i think they are so set with their way of doing right, it's rather impossible. it needed a fresh pair of eyes to see good in anakin and a chance. they could have used anakin's fresh pair of eyes to look at their order.

oh, totally. which is why it's so difficult. it isn't all noble wanting to put forth his opinion, it's also rebelling against obi-wan because that's where he is in his life in this moment.

i was talking with a friend about why anakin turned and all this and we just kept coming up with reasons, there seems no end to them and very little, oddly enough, that speaks against turning. part of it us rationalizing options and making the situation more transparent because we have time to ponder all these things. it's just odd.

That was too big to ignore, and then the clone wars begin and it?s allowed to let slide. He should have called in Anakin and Obi-Wan and they all should have really talked this through.

hehe, i can imagine that.
yoda: kill them you did?
anakin: uhm, yeah. they ran into my saber... i couldn't stop it!

After this, as there were no consequences for Anakin, it just became even easier to not be forthcoming on any other misdeeds as well, and then he has Palps tell him its understandable wanting revenge in ROTS after he kills Dooku.

it's odd that he would tell padme, he would tell palps but he doesn't tell anyone in the order. he seems to need to confess it. just like, i suppose, he would like to 'fess up with his marriage. and i would think confessing the tusken slaughter is too big. you can't just go and say, you know what happened to me? you wouldn't believe it. he is really ashamed of it. and he knows it shouldn't have happened.

i don't know what you mean with real problems.

 

jedi 827 posted:

The other Jedi were taken away from their families when they were very young, and have been taught to be emotionally resigned. None of them had the exposure that Anakin had, and couldn't really understand him...

To which darth_frared replied:

anakin had too much exposure to everything for a ten-year-old. much too much. but he knew the ways of tatooine. he knows who he is there, he has his mom who takes care of him.
i do think obi-wan tried his best. but it was just no use. i do think that the difference between them is not simply overcome by the occasional talk. none of them had the disposition to wonder why anakin was who he was.

I wonder about the differing backgrounds of all the Jedi kids coming into the temple to start their training. I don't have any proof of this from the movies themselves, just a feeling, but could it be that no other child had come from a slave background. If nothing else, this was going to distinguish Anakin from his peers more than anything. Anakin would always hang onto his own sense of what makes him feel 'free', much more strongly than say Obi-Wan, whose background was nothing like Anakin's. The slavery issue has been discussed already wrt its effects on Anakin's future actions and his point of view, but it's something that I think Obi-Wan would never really understand about Anakin, his need to claim ownership over his own talents and skills and to have pride (if its a sin) in that, since material possessions don't come into play in the Jedi lifestyle, then that's all he has. All Anakin has is his self assertiveness, and self reflected pride in how far he has come from his slave background, but other Jedi who wouldn't understand this and see it simply as arrogance and a lack of humility, when it really isn't that at all. And yes, they (the Jedi) don't wonder to look into Anakin's psyche any deeper, maybe they didn't wish to understand? How many problem Jedi did they have? If some of them left the order were they free to go then? I believe the answer is yes, I do think the Jedi are strongly into Go or don't Go, there is no let's try and work out what the problem is and go about trying to fix it and make you feel like you belong...

jedi 827 also posted:

However, in oreder to *understand* emotions, you have to feel them for yourself, and in that regard, none of the Jedi could help Anakin.

And darth_frared responded in kind:

yes, totally. you'd have to have an idea of what he's going through to be able to walk in his shoes.
we all know death is coming one day, but so far for me it's a rather abstract notion. i haven't seen a dead body and if people around me mourn their loved ones i feel like i cannot relate to them very much because i don't know what it feels like. it takes a lot of effort to feel it, too. and with the jedi i think they are so set with their way of doing right, it's rather impossible. it needed a fresh pair of eyes to see good in anakin and a chance. they could have used anakin's fresh pair of eyes to look at their order.

The walking in someone elses shoes...Yes, very hard to do as you say. I also wonder how much they all know about Shmi's death, not so much the tusken slaughter but that she is actually dead. Is it ever mentioned again? If so, they seriously misunderestimated the grief he would have felt at that. But it's not only that she died, but he was with her when she did. It really does something to you when you are there watching literally the last dying breath of your mother, it never leaves you. It really cements that idea in your head that it's truly final, and the warm and fuzzy notions about being in a better place when you die, etc, mean jack at that point. I fully understood his need for revenge at that point, not condone, but I understand it. He finally sees her after all these years of separation on top of that, and its when she's dying, so that separation guilt would also be strongly eating at him in the back of his mind too.

The Jedi by contr

 

I feel like I'm intruding on someone else's coversation here but I wanted to test out a theory and it seems the place to be

In conversation with my mother she was telling me all about attachment in education development and it struck me that it related to SW pretty well. She works with kids who are "special needs" so questioning, difficult, need attention. Bit like Anakin comes across really. Apparently their problems stem from attachment issues but from NOT having a close attachment to an adult in their life like a parent. So the idea of the nurture group my mum has at school is to create a strong attachment so that they can start to trust adults. Some pscycholgist says you need to develop this attachment by 3yrs old otherwise you will have problems in later life.

So I thought about this in relation to Anakin. Yep he has a strong attachment to his mother which is healthy but then it starts to go wrong because he is placed in this other context where he does not have the same opportunity to develop a new attachment that would replace his mother. And I mean in this unconditional love.

Shmi is the vision of unconditional love that I think Anakin wants, aspires to and needs. He cannot find this with the Jedi because although they claim to be compassionate and love unconditionally there are conditions attached. That condition is to be a good Jedi... so as long as Anakin behaves himself and acts like they want him to act the Jedi will "love" him. So although they are a family, there are rules that do not come attached with other families.

So he looks for that unconditional love he needs elsewhere. That is fulfilled by Padme who accepts him completely for who he is. Even after the Tusken slaughter she still loves him. So when that love is threatened to be taken away I think that is why Anakin becomes so desperate. So yeah there is the element of control and power he is requiring thrown in but I think that drive is also created by the removal of the "mother-replacement" he finds in Padme. Maybe that is the wrong term as it sounds a bit incestuous, sorry!

And when Padme removes herself from him - thinking here of the Mustapha conversation - well I think that is why he goes psycho at that point as he knows he has lost everything.

I think also Palpatine fulfils the need for unconditional love that Anakin needs but it kind of backfires on him. because he sees love as this giving without recieving type thing he puts what he expects from love onto everyone else. So he trusts Palps explicitly but he seems to be giving him what he needs. Ah so vulnerable.

Anyway I am looking forward to some thoughts, it is only a new thought I had this Sunday night so I am sure there are more holes in it than a swiss cheese

 

I'm sorry, I really do not agree. Obi-Wan didn't want to train Anakin, he felt he was dangerous, remember in TPM Obi-Wan senses an elusive danger right from the start. But after that, from all I read in books and see in movies points to one conclusion: Obi-Wan loved Anakin at firs like a child and than like a brother.
I do think he needed to say it more often, Anakin is so fragile he needs reassuring all the time, I guess it comes from being a slave. Anakin is desperate to feel loved. Being loved by the people he loves is like a drug to him. When he is betrayed (in his eyes at least) he cannot take it. He desperatly wants to hold on to his mother (but can't), Padme (ultimatly looses her) and Obi-Wan (ultimatly feels betrayed by him). The greatest tragedy in Anakin's journey (besides the coundil spliting him up with Obi-Wan) is that he fails to see who really and truly loves him, and believes the empty words of the one person who wants to harm him most.
Proof of Obi-Wan's love:
TPM-not love yet. But curious like from the moment they met, observe his smile. Like by the time they reach Naboo. Fascination mixed with like by the end of TPM.
AotC-Constant criticism because he wants him to do good. He knows Anakin's potential. Exactly like a parent who pushes their child to do good in schoo. The child doesn't see that as love. However, Obi-Wan doesn't really know how to show Anakin a tender side, a side Anakin desperatley needs. We see an attempt when he asks him about his nightmares. In AotC Obi-Wan is just not good at showing touchy feelings.
RotS-we see it through their friendship, I really felt love radiate from Obi-Wan the whole time in that movie. More a proud love, or friendship/brotherly love. Of course we really see it at the end when they fight and Obi-Wan ultimatley screams, "I loved you Anakin!"
The OT-don't really see it much there, except at the begining of ANH when he remembers his friend Anakin.
Where I really saw it was the books. Sorry to bring some EU stuff in.
"Rouge Planet"-anakin is 11 or 12 and they talk about his need to be loved, and he openly huggs Obi-Wan, and Obi-Wan watches over him when he sleeps. They say he really loves him, genuenly.
"RotS by Stover"-Stover points it out all the time, esspecially in the end when they are fighting and Obi-Wan realizes to his suprise that even though Anakin is trying to kill him and even though he killed all those Jedi--he still loved him. That was so heartbreaking for me.

Sorry this is way too long. I'll shut up now. I had more to say about Padme and Anakin but I'll just shut up for now.

 

Shmi is the vision of unconditional love that I think Anakin wants, aspires to and needs. He cannot find this with the Jedi because although they claim to be compassionate and love unconditionally there are conditions attached. That condition is to be a good Jedi... so as long as Anakin behaves himself and acts like they want him to act the Jedi will "love" him. So although they are a family, there are rules that do not come attached with other families.

So he looks for that unconditional love he needs elsewhere. That is fulfilled by Padme who accepts him completely for who he is. Even after the Tusken slaughter she still loves him. So when that love is threatened to be taken away I think that is why Anakin becomes so desperate. So yeah there is the element of control and power he is requiring thrown in but I think that drive is also created by the removal of the "mother-replacement" he finds in Padme. Maybe that is the wrong term as it sounds a bit incestuous, sorry!

And when Padme removes herself from him - thinking here of the Mustapha conversation - well I think that is why he goes psycho at that point as he knows he has lost everything.

^^^very much agree with you there. If only (here we go with what ifs and only ifs) Obi-Wan had been equiped with knowledge of Anakin's need of unconditional parental love things would have been much different. If Obi-Wan knew how to give Anakin what he needed, than there would have been no need for Palpatine. Anakin would have taken care of him imediatly, he would have ran straight to Obi-Wan and told him Palps was a Sith.
More than that, he would have told Obi about the Tuscan slaughter and his marriage.
Actually, scratch that--there would have been no slaughter and possibly no marriage because if Obi-Wan knew how to deal with Anakin and heal his fragile emotional state from the beginning, Anakin would have not been as irrational.
He might have still married Padme, I do think they were Starcrossed Lovers (even though that version is not very popular in this thread).

 

Anakin wanted Padme as a wife, from love. He did everything he did out of pure love. I mean to kill innocent children for a woman is true love. But then it became greed. He WANTED HER, not as wife but as a possession of his. Its like a child and a new toy. At first he'll do anything FOr the toy, but eventually he doing it all because he wants it for himself. Anakin didnt understand the fianl treachery of the SIth, that for power, one would lose everything.

 

SKjedi says I do think he needed to say it more often, Anakin is so fragile he needs reassuring all the time, I guess it comes from being a slave. Anakin is desperate to feel loved. Being loved by the people he loves is like a drug to him. When he is betrayed (in his eyes at least) he cannot take it. He desperatly wants to hold on to his mother (but can't), Padme (ultimatly looses her) and Obi-Wan (ultimatly feels betrayed by him). The greatest tragedy in Anakin's journey (besides the coundil spliting him up with Obi-Wan) is that he fails to see who really and truly loves him, and believes the empty words of the one person who wants to harm him most.



Ironic really if not so much as tragic

That's why i don't agree with the love / possession / greed theory because I don't see how Anakin treats people as objects, at least not until much later in ROTS. It's not like he just wants them to love him he wants to be able to love them in return.

Like saving his mother is for him an expression of his love for her but he can't save her so he feels guilt, disgust, despair. And that turns into anger and well we get slaughter. He can't cope with the feelings he has been given.

 

I also dissagree that Anakin's love for Padme and Obi-Wan (or even the Jedi Order) was because of greed. He is not like that at all untill his mind gets twisted by the dark side. True, he is reckless, he is angry, etc. But before RotS I don't see greed, I only see that he wants to save the people he loves. I know it is not the Jedi way and that results in his ultimate failing, but any other "regular" person can definitly relate to Anakin.
I think that is the reason so many of us feel for him.

 

I copmletly agree, the only time I start seeing Anakins greed, is when he relizes on Mustafar that he can overthrow The Emperor, and talks to Padme about ruling the galaxy together. Like you said any normal person would have made Anakins descisions.




Emporer Gerner Dark Lord of the Sith

 

I don't think Anakin really looks up to Obi-wan because he never listens to him, he defies him at every turn, he always thinks of himself as better than Obi-wan, and he blames Obi-wan for all of his problems. Anakin never did that with Qui-Gon even though they had little time together because he feels a lot of gratitude towards him for the fact that he freed Anakin from slavery, helped him realise his dream of being a Jedi, and supported him when the other Jedi criticized him. Obi-wan never did that until Episode 3 but he's much too late by then because Palpatine already has Anakin's loyalty under his grasp.

 

However, we see Anakin doing this when he's in his early 20's. Many kids that age will do all of those things to their parents, but that doesn't mean that they don't look up to them.

 

But many kids would never want to kill the people they've looked up to since they were toddlers just because some politician who claims to be your friend says he knows how to grant them immortality.

If Anakin really cared about Obi-wan, he wouldn't have tried to kill him.

 

Understanding Anakin's point of view is fairly simple. Of course to understand anyone's point of view you must understand where they are coming from. Anakin's every failure as a jedi, son, husband and father is motivated by a love for himself. He is not the Jedi who only thinks of others and is motivated by mature Love as the Jedi(and true Christians are.) He is the son who can't bear to leave his mom because he can't live without her. He is the jedi who can't get enough power, pride and just about everything else the bible calls the fruit of the flesh. He is the husband who can't open up to his wife and speak the truth because it will hurt HIM! He is the father who hunts down his own son to go down the same terrible path he went down and he is the father who saves his son so his honor would not be at stake when he died. His point of view is running rampted in our country. His point of view says, I ... I ... I ... I. He was sent Yoda and Sidious and his choice was Sidious because he flattered his ego. Yoda said fear leads to the dark side ...sidious and dooku said embrace your fear and anger it makes you powerful. You too will be lead to the dark side if you give in to your fears. So Anakin's point of view was pure selfishness and it was all his fault. He had a jedi super master who trained jedi for 800 years telling him pure truths. He had a world of wisdom, not just useless knowledge. It cracks me up that I saw a bunch of darth vader's running around for halloween.

 

This will probably sound weird, but does Anakin represent the power of love? How it can be used for both evil and good purposes?

 

maybe obi wan should have told him sooner that he loved him instead of saying it right before he leaves him for dead...

Both trilogies are very good at establishing male relationships. Unlike women, men don't very often speak openly of their feeling for each other, unless of course they are gay men. (I speak from experience there.) Straight men don't discuss such things because it would be perceived as gay. That's not to say that male bonding isn't understood on a nonverbal level by all of the gender. The best scene between Luke and Han in the original trilogy, in my opinion, is the scene in The Empire Strikes Back in the rebel hanger. Only a little dialogue, but the part that says the most is when Luke acts like he's about to say something, then just stops, and nods his head. Both he and Han understand what he wants the say, and the feeling is mutual--all without words. Anakin and Obi-Wan relate in much the same way.

 

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