Senate Understanding Christianity

God is actually way more evil than Satan. Think about it. God murders millions, if not billions of people in the Bible. How many people does Satan kill? Ten? A dozen?

 

Sarge

I had a prof that showed Coffee with Jesus everyday before class.

 

Coffee with Jesus pwns South Park.

post #151 belongs in the "Derp" thread.

 

I'm going on the assumption that you're referring to the destruction of Sodom and Gommorha (sp?), and the nations wiped out by the Israelites on their way to the promised land, and maybe Noah's flood. A lot of people have a hard time with that; so did I for a long time. How can I reconcile a merciful and loving God to one who obliterates whole nations? But if we look at those societies, they were the worst in all recorded history. Not one single righteous man could be found in Sodom. The nations destroyed by the Israelites were idol worshippers who sacrificed their own babies to be burned to death. Our modern horrors like Nazism didn't hold a candle to those nations. God gave them opportunities time and again to turn from evil. They refused every time. They were committing such horrible atrocities that the good done by showing them mercy was overwhelmed by the evil they continued to spread. The evil had to be destroyed. What about the innocent slaves and children who died with them? Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me." Christians understand that when someone dies before reaching the age of reason, God in his mercy will bring them to heaven. So they were spared a life of suffering and evil and welcomed into God's arms.
God is omniscient, all knowing, He can tell the name of every single one of those who died, what their hopes and dreams were, what gifts and talents they had. He did not kill them lightly. Only God has the wisdom to decide when a person or nation should die. And when He decides, it is always the best decision possible. With our limited viewpoint, we can't see all the repercussions of any decision, but God can, and He will make good things happen out of circumstances that seem impossibly bad to us. Only God can do that. That's why He gets to be God and we don't.

 

So the moral of this story is that murder is OK as long as God is doing it, or it's being done in God's name. Gotcha. Thank you for affirming my belief that Christianity is one of the most depraved, sick and twisted religions out there.

 

And not all Christians believe in Biblical literalism.

 

Surely you're not saying that it's depraved, sick, and twisted to destroy evil?

 

I was referring to the wholesale slaughter of innocent children that your god did several times in the Bible, with the justification that it's OK because they'll get into heaven anyway. Don't you see how sick that sentiment is? It's just like those folks who, after the Sandy Hook shooting, said "20 kids got the best Christmas present ever! They got to meet Jesus early!" That is one of the most horrible statements anyone could ever make.

The fact of the matter is, your god is NOT good, or loving, or kind. All evidence supports that.
www.evilbible.com
www.godisimaginary.com

 

If you look at it from an Earthly point of view, that's certainly true. But life on Earth is only an eyeblink in comparison to eternity. They really have "gone to a better place" and avoided most of the pain and heartbreak of life here. They also lost out on the gifts and joys of life on Earth, but those don't even begin to compare to everlasting life in heaven.

 

No, He's not.

When Lucifer (Satan), in his pride and arrogance, claimed to be higher than God who created him and would not bow before Him, he was cast out of heaven with the angels who followed him and that's how the whole mess started. Isaiah 14:12-15 - "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit."

Satan later decieved Adam and Eve in Eden, claiming they would become like God and know the difference between good and evil. They did become like Him, all right - but at a high price; physical death and loss of fellowship with God. Since then, humanity and all creation has been tainted.

Before I go further, let me clarify that I believe God is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresence. He knows what we will do, but we are not simply puppets to His will. We ourselves have free will


God's will is for everyone to be saved and come into His kingdom. However, because Satan deceived Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, death and sin entered the world. Satan claimed that humanity would be like God and know the difference between good and evil; Adam and Eve did find that that was true, but at a high cost - physical death and loss of fellowship with God. The decisions we make either honor Him or shame Him.

Now, to address your post, timmioshere:

God is the God of justice and mercy and slow to anger, but when a people does not repent and acknowledge His glory, then His wrath is poured out on them. Earth was destroyed by the Flood because of humanity's wickedness; only Noah and his family survived. Sodom, Gommorrah, and the other cities of the Plain were destroyed because of their wickedness. In Genesis 19, Abraham asks God to spare Sodom if only ten righteous are found within, and God says he will not destroy for the sake of ten. However, the only righteous ones within were Lot and his immediate family; his sons-in-law scoffed at him when he relayed the word of the angels that the city would be destroyed. Also, I believe that the actions of the men of Sodom - in calling for the angels to be sent out so " that we may know them" (Genesis 19:5) and Lot's subsquent reply "I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof" (Genesis 19:7-8) shows that the law in Leviticus 20:13 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination" was viewed as sin in the eyes of God centuries before the Law was written - was the catalyst that led to the cities' destruction.

TBC

 

In the case of Pharoah and the Exodus, the King would not let the Hebrews go even after Moses and Aaron relayed God's words to him. Free will is in play here. At the same time, however, God hardened Pharoah's heart so that he would not let the Israelites go. He did this to show both Egypt and Israel His glory and that He had not forgotten His people. Because the Egyptians had enslaved His chosen people for 400 years, they would feel God's wrath through the Plagues.

Later, in the period of the Judges and the Divided Kingdom, Israel repeatedly turned its back on the God who delivered them from Egypt and went after other gods, so God let them have "the desires of their heart." When they came to their senses and returned to the true worship, He delivered them, but they did not learn their lesson; finally the Babylonians and Assyrians destroyed both kingdoms and led the people into captivity.

Yes, a lot of people died in the Bible, but their deaths should not be laid at God's feet; they should be properly laid at Satan's feet. From the day he was cast out of heaven, his only desire has been to revenge himself on God and take his place in heaven. His pride and arrogance were his downfall, and because of the protevanglium uttered in Genesis 3:15, he has tried everything possible to wipe out the line of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to prevent Jesus Christ from being born, but he has failed.

Let me ask you a question now, timmioshere. Do you consider God to be more evil than Satan in this day and time? Do you blame Him for the deaths of 6 million Jews during the Holocaust? Do you blame Him for the deaths in Israel and the Middle East due to the war that has been raging there since 1948? Do you blame Him for 9/11?

 

I think it's clear free will plays no part in the killing of the first born in Egypt, for exactly the part you mentioned. When Pharoah attempted to make a choice that god disliked, because it would have spared a huge portion of Egyptians from being killed, god stops that from happening

 

I consider in this day and time, as well as any other moment in time, that God and Satan don't even exist. It's all a myth that will one day die out, just like the 3000+ other gods that are no longer believed in.

 

If no gods exist, then humanity is responsible for everything that happens in this world and our ultimate fate, is that what you're saying?

 

Correct.

 

True, Sarge.

 

I'm curious, how do you percieve the constant warfare between Israel and its neighbors since 1948 if you believe God doesn't exist?

 

Geopolitics... Palestinians seeing Israelis as colonists/imperialists taking away their land.

I'm a Christian, but you're not making a good argument.

 

Pardon, Summer Dreamer. I'm just not used to debating others who don't believe in Christianity. Would you like me to leave this thread so I don't muddle things farther?

 

No, of course not. Everyone is welcome here.

I'm just saying that's not a good argument, in fact I'm not sure what you're arguing.

Just keep an open mind, (most) atheists haven't overlooked anything, like what you're suggesting about Israel. No side will ever prove to the other who is right/wrong (at least until there's some scientific proof either for or against God). Just remember this thread is about understanding Christianity. That goes for timmoishere too

 

God existing is not a prerequisite for the conflicts in Israel. Those folks believe that their god(s) exist, but belief unsupported by evidence is a dangerous thing, as we can clearly see.

 

How do you know that God is a myth, timmioshere? Can you show me some facts that prove without a doubt that He does not exist?

 

That's not how proof works. The burden of proof falls upon the one who is making the claim that something exists. Need I invoke Russell's Teapot here?

Asking me to prove the nonexistence of a thing is ludicrous. Can you prove that the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist?

As I said before, it is hardly necessary to disprove that which has never been proven.

 

Perhaps so, but I'm asking you some questions so I can try to understand why you don't believe God exists. Now again, how do you know God is a myth? Provide proof. If you can, then I will take a look at it. Now, will you kindly answer my questions instead of dodging them?

 

I don't believe God exists because there is zero evidence for his existence. That is all there is to it.

Let me ask you this: do you think the story of Santa Claus is a myth? How about the story of Muhammed and the winged horse? The story of Joseph Smith and the golden plates? The story of Odysseus and his journey home from Troy? Of course you think all of these stories are myths, because there is no evidence to corroborate them.

So why do you not view Christianity through the same critical lens? Why does Christianity get a free pass when you dismiss those other myths so easily? What makes Christianity so special?