Senate Understanding Christianity

Discussion in 'Community' started by Ghost, Dec 24, 2012.

  1. Saintheart Chosen One

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    That's a big call, hoss. You toted up the numbers recently I take it? Particularly the count that Islam's two principal sects of the Sunni and Shi'ite have inflicted on each other over the past six hundred odd years?

    I've no idea which screed you've pulled this one from, but, um, no. Catholic Catechism in no way suggests the Pope's pronouncements, whether ex cathedra in the very limited dogma of infallibility, or generally, are to be taken above the Bible. No Catholic abides by that principle or belief.


    From the Catholic Catechism, paragraphs 818-20, which are more or less the definitive beliefs prescribed for Catholics on the subject:

    817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame." The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism - do not occur without human sin: Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.


    818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers .... All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."

    819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements." Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."


    That sounds to me like the Catholic Church has a rather wider view of who is a Christian and who isn't than your particular sect does. You seem to have missed exactly what the Catholic part of "Catholic Church" is aimed at.

    Revelation 5:8. Revelation 8:3-4. James 5:16-18. Hebrews 12:22-23. 1 Timothy 2:1-15. All of them clearly point out (a) saints have prayers to offer in heaven (b) prayers of righteous men have great power with God. (c) Christians are told to pray for each other, which would include saints. I'll leave aside the Mary thing, since that's another story, but at least read your Bible or go and see what the "other side's" justifications are before playing demagogue games by answering your own questions. That's before we go anywhere near the idiocy of Biblical literalism.
    Last edited by Saintheart, Jan 17, 2014
  2. Kimball_Kinnison Chosen One

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    I'm sorry, but you seem to have completely missed my point.

    There is no objective standard of what constitutes "evidence". If I speak about something that I personally saw or experienced, that is evidence for me, because it is first-hand knowledge. However, if I tell it to you, it becomes hearsay, which reduces its reliability. However, that doesn't change the fact that for me it is still first-hand knowledge.

    To use a secular example, it is not irrational for a person who saw a UFO to say "I believe in flying saucers because I saw one". You might think that how they are interpreting their experience is wrong, but that doesn't mean that their conclusion is irrational. At the same time, whether or not you determine their testimony about flying saucers to be credible is completely up to you, filtered through the lens of your own experience and assumptions. You might think that a belief in flying saucers is irrational, largely because you've never seen physical evidence in favor of it, but that doesn't mean that someone else's belief is irrational.

    Rationality is a matter of process, not the end result. You can follow a completely logical and rational process and arrive at incorrect results. People do that in science all of the time (often because of either incomplete data or differences of interpretation of the data). I agree that it is irrational to believe something without evidence, but that does not mean that everyone who believes in that thing lacks evidence. Some religious people hold irrational beliefs because they don't have any evidence to support them. However, other religious people's beliefs are not irrational because they do have evidence (specifically their own experience) to support it. You might disagree with their conclusions, or even the axiomatic assumptions that they make, but your disagreement does not determine whether it is rational or not.
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  3. LostOnHoth Chosen One

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  4. MasterSanders Jedi Master

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    The bible clearly states what it's own interpretation is, however according to the Catholic Church only the Pope can translate the scriptures...

    Fact: "The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him."
    So therefore the Pope has the power to say whatever he wants concerning the scriptures and change their meaning which is literally the very foundation of the Catholic Church a misinterpretation of Matthew 16:13 -19 believing it was Peter that was the rock on which Jesus would build his church...
    13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?”
    14 So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
    15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
    16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
    17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed[d]in heaven.”

    Jesus, God, and the Word of God are pictured as the Rock in scripture dozens of times... So why would we now draw the conclusion that Peter is the rock of which Jesus speaks of.. Another parable Jesus even says "build your house upon the rock" Jesus is also known as the "cornerstone that the builders (the jews) rejected" The rock in this passage is the knowledge that Jesus is the Christ the Son of the Living God not Peter... Besides this point of contention Paul is the Apostle sent to the Gentiles and Peter spent most of his ministry speaking to Jews... Paul even corrects Peter that he prefers the jews and requires gentiles to live as jews which is contrary to the new words of Jesus, that they no longer have to live under the traditions of the jewish people, for example: not trimming your beard, not eating shrimp, lobster, pork, etc... Hence why God granted Peter the vision in the book of Acts saying that all animals are clean, furthermore to say that the gentiles can now be clean as well...

    We are to pray "for" the saints, not "to" the saints, and in scripture the saints are all believers not select few who the Catholic church claims to be more holy than others... Rev 5:8 does not speak of prayers "to" the saints, but prayers of the saints... WE are the saints not someone that the Catholic church decided are to be saints...

    “Outside the Church there is no salvation” (extra ecclesiam nulla salus) is a doctrine of the Catholic Faith that was taught By Jesus Christ to His Apostles, preached by the Fathers, defined by popes and councils and piously believed by the faithful in every age of the Church. Here is how the Popes defined it:
    • “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)
    • “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)
    • “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
    Pope John Paul II and Pope Francis both say that this is their belief that Outside the Roman Catholic Church there is no salvation...

    The catholic church has offered to release souls from purgatory if you will pay money to the catholic church...
    See Catholic Indulgences, Luther's 95 theses...

    The Catholic Church in the name of God has killed millions of Christians, pagans, muslims, jews, and anyone in between for thousands of reasons that are not biblical. See history of the Crusades, Middle Ages, roots of Protestantism, etc...
    Now if you want I could spend the time listing the millions of Martyrs that died because the Catholic Church deemed them to be heretics, but I'll just list a few major ones: Joan of Arc, William Tyndale, John Wycliffe, John Huss, etc...
    See Foxe's Book of Martyrs, or just google martyrs killed by the Catholic Church... Men, women, and children, most of them died because they just wanted to translate the bible into another language or because they preached something contradictory to the Catholic Church's doctrine... Nowhere in scripture does it ever say to kill anyone for believing in something different however because the Catholic Church said so they killed millions in the name of God because, "God wills it!" If you killed muslims in the crusades the Pope gave you a free pass to heaven.... Ridiculous...

    I know the scripture and I know what it does and does not say.... I ask you to find one quoted scripture to pray "TO" the saints or "TO" Mary.... There are no such scriptures, even though based on interviews with Pope John Paul II, that he prayed more to Mary than he did to Jesus... (Mary is not God or a god, she is a woman that was used to give birth to God in the flesh, not to be prayed to) You should just listen to Mary on this subject - (speaking about Jesus to servants)
    "Do whatever he (Jesus) tells you." Nowhere in scripture is she ever meant to be seen more than just an ordinary woman that something extraordinary happened to her... I have been inside Catholic Churches all over Latin America, Guatemala, El Salvador, Mexico, Peru, in Europe, Barcelona, Paris, Piza, Rome, and I know what is written on the walls and I know the sculptures that are laden with gold and jewels of Mary holding the baby Jesus.... You have to pay money to light candles in most of the churches... Lol utterly ridiculous! In Mexico, more Catholics pray to El virgin de Guadelupe, and have hundreds of other superstitious nonsense... How many saints are prayed to? Yet the bible specifically states not to have idols or pray to anyone else other than God... Furthermore God is the only one who forgives sin not a priest, bishop, cardinal, or pope... Nowhere in scripture does it say to pray Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with thee.... Ever... This is blasphemous...

    Furthermore the Vatican has over a trillion dollars in it's bank account, possesses countless billions of dollars of ancient history inside their vaults, and yet they can't feed all the poor? It's not like they need the money their cathedrals in Guatemala are millions upon millions of dollars, yet the people there go hungry and starve to death, don't have clean water.. I know because I've been on dozens of mission trips providing food, water purification wells, medicine, clothes, and christmas presents to orphans and the less fortunate.... However the Catholic Church has untold billions in its vaults that could feed the world for 100 years if not 1,000.... I have been inside the Vatican and the Vatican museum I know what I'm talking about... Priceless works of art, statues... To sell one of them could be worth billions if not hundreds of millions...

    No need for personal attacks - PG
    Last edited by Point Given, Jan 17, 2014
  5. timmoishere Force Ghost

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    "Nowhere in scripture does it ever say to kill anyone for believing in something different "

    Um, yes it does. Clearly you haven't read the Bible.


    "Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19)

    If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12)

    While the Israelites were camped at Acacia, some of the men defiled themselves by sleeping with the local Moabite women. These women invited them to attend sacrifices to their gods, and soon the Israelites were feasting with them and worshiping the gods of Moab. Before long Israel was joining in the worship of Baal of Peor, causing the LORD's anger to blaze against his people. The LORD issued the following command to Moses: "Seize all the ringleaders and execute them before the LORD in broad daylight, so his fierce anger will turn away from the people of Israel." So Moses ordered Israel's judges to execute everyone who had joined in worshiping Baal of Peor. Just then one of the Israelite men brought a Midianite woman into the camp, right before the eyes of Moses and all the people, as they were weeping at the entrance of the Tabernacle. When Phinehas son of Eleazar and grandson of Aaron the priest saw this, he jumped up and left the assembly. Then he took a spear and rushed after the man into his tent. Phinehas thrust the spear all the way through the man's body and into the woman's stomach. So the plague against the Israelites was stopped, but not before 24,000 people had died. (Numbers 25:1-9)

    They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13)


    I could easily find many more such verses, but I think these should suffice.
    Last edited by timmoishere, Jan 17, 2014
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  6. MasterSanders Jedi Master

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    Excuse me I should have said in the New Testament... Like I also said however that we were to not follow the traditions of the jewish people that were for a different age, time, and culture...
  7. timmoishere Force Ghost

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    Except that Jesus specifically said, on several occasions, that the Old Testament still applies, and will continue to apply forever. See Matthew 5:17-18, Luke 16:17, 2 Peter 20-21, and John 10:35
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  8. Saintheart Chosen One

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    I see you not only selectively quoted paragraph 85 of the Catechism, leaving out paragraphs 84 and 86, but also misquoted it. The actual wording of those two paragraphs is:

    84 The apostles entrusted the "Sacred deposit" of the faith (the depositum fidei), contained in Sacred Scripture and Tradition, to the whole of the Church. "By adhering to [this heritage] the entire holy people, united to its pastors, remains always faithful to the teaching of the apostles, to the brotherhood, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. So, in maintaining, practicing and professing the faith that has been handed on, there should be a remarkable harmony between the bishops and the faithful."

    The Magisterium of the Church
    85 "The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ." This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.

    86 "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."48

    You were saying?

    Because, as is the Catholic argument and which you again played the demagogue's game of omitting, there is a subtlety in the translation you skipped over. Peter, as that passage notes, was not his original name; it was Simon Bar-Jonah. Peter is an English version of the word used from the Greek version of the text: Petros. Petros was used in the Greek text as the closest analogue available since it, too, was a translation. In the original Aramaic (which is believed as the original language of St. Matthew's Gospel), the word used where the word 'Peter' now stands was kepha -- rock. In Semitic communities, as Jesus came from, to be called "rock" was to designate the solid foundation upon which a community would be built. Abraham is so called in the Bible. Jesus' words to Peter therefore translate as "And I also say to you that you are rock, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it." That is, Simon Bar-Jonah was tapped as the foundation of the church, and every Pope who received authority from him thereby inherited the role of being that foundation. The first statement of that principle comes from St. Iraenaeus (Adversus Haerasies) in the earliest days of the Church.

    Provide direct citations for JP 2 and Francis's assertions that there's no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church. Secondly, ensure those are delivered ex cathedra from the Office of the Holy See so they bind all of Catholicism. Thirdly, show me where they overturn Catechism which says expressly that it is possible for salvation to occur outside the Church and baptism.

    As to the remainder of quotes: the telling omission and error there is the date on each of those quotes - 1215, 1302, and 1441. Literally six hundred years have passed since then. When each of those statements were made, the Church still thought the Earth was flat and still arguably thought of slavery as part of the natural human condition -- something no Protestant church really objected to on an institutional scale until roughly the time of the American Civil War, it might be added. Fair enough that it took the Catholic Church a few centuries to get round to making a formal apology to Galileo Galilei, but just a little bit of water has passed under the bridge since then, particularly if you look at the current Catholic Catechism. None of the statements made by those Popes was made under the strict dogma of Papal infallibility; that was not defined until several centuries down the line and the Catholic Church has never said that these remarks were made under those conditions. Try again.

    Grow up. Luther's been dead for roughly five hundred years. Virtually none of his theses remain except those on a dogmatic basis. Whatever the source of the Vatican Bank's funds, indulgences haven't been part of it since around the time of the Borgias.


    You seem rather fixated on the Crusades, which one might point out pretty well all took place prior to the Reformation. It wasn't just the Catholic Church, it was the Church of the time, so I'm afraid you'd have to cut the body count ascribable to the Catholic Church specifically back to the point when your particular sect diverged away from it. Also, I asked you to give me a tote. Count up the numbers for me, don't go inflating your figures to "millions". Carl Sagan has the lock on hyperbole with billions and billions, I'm afraid. And don't forget the body counts for all the other religions you've thrown up as comparators, and the sectarian killings and martyrdoms occasioned on their own people or those who dissented. You will not find many clean hands in this area, and you won't find them less clean than Catholicism.

    And as for "nowhere in scripture does it every say to kill anyone for believing in something different"?

    Deuteronomy 13:7-12. Some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. And all Israel shall hear and fear and never again do any such wickedness as this among you.

    1 Samuel 15:1-3. Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. 2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’

    Exodus 34:11-16. Obey what I command you today. I will drive out before you the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. 12 Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you. 13 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles.14 Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

    What was that about the literal wording of the Bible again?

    You will recall the self-mortification of Tammy and Jim Bakker, their walking in sackcloth and ashes, their giving of all their earthly wealth to the benighted poor throughout their public ministry. That is, when they weren't breaking the law as well as their adherents' hearts. They even managed to skip the old "render unto Caesar" bit since they still owe the IRS about $6 million in back taxes. Hypocrisy is no more a stranger to Protestantism than it is Catholicism on that score.
    Last edited by Saintheart, Jan 17, 2014
  9. MasterSanders Jedi Master

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    i agree with your last point... That is all..
  10. Saintheart Chosen One

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    Now you need to provide the data I've requested. Specific pronouncements from JP 2 and Francis ex cathedra for the impossibility of salvation except by the Roman Catholic Church, and specific numbers of deaths caused by the RCC as opposed to the other religions you mentioned. PPOR, as posters of my generation used to say.
    Last edited by Saintheart, Jan 17, 2014
  11. MasterSanders Jedi Master

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    Also I find it humorous that after all that trying to disprove my points you still haven't touched praying "to" the saints or to Mary, which are both practiced and encouraged in Catholicisim... Which by itself is blasphemous and nullifies any other qualifiers you wish to use to explain what the Catholic Church believes now etc.... Like I have already said the Catholic Church's doctrine as a whole is contrary to Biblical Doctrine.... The Catholic Church did in fact kill millions of people because they were supposed heretics and many other things against scripture...

    Like I also have stated I meant to say New Testament when talking about killing people.... That was a different time and different age, and the message was directed to a different people all together...

    All I am saying and what I have been trying to say is the Catholic Church's beliefs do not line up with scripture... Sure a lot of them do, but many of them don't and those are the ones I have contention with...
  12. Saintheart Chosen One

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    Once again: PPOR in relation to the points I raised. If you want to engage in hyperbole out here, prepare to be called on it.

    EDIT: You are also engaging in what, respectfully, appears serious hypocrisy when on one hand you try to explain away literal genocide in the Old Testament as "a different time for a different people" and then on the other hand scream at the Roman Catholic Church being blasphemous no matter than its beliefs have changed over the past six hundred years or so. This is doubly so when your main plank is that the Bible must be taken literally, no ifs, no buts, and that to veer away from it is wrong. Don't worry, my darling, we'll get to alleged prayer to saints and/or Mary in due course; first we have to try and clean up the Godawful mess you're leaving over the thread in relation to other matters.
    Last edited by Saintheart, Jan 17, 2014
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  13. MasterSanders Jedi Master

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    I'll tell you what... You provide me with scriptures (excluding Catholic additions to scripture) that say to pray to Mary or to pray to the saints, then I will do the research to find the links and quotes for JP II and Francis quoting Cyprian's claim, heck I'll even get the quotes for JP II saying he prayed to Mary more than Jesus which is still against scripture.... I'll even look into Crusades documents of reported casualties and how many martyrs the Catholic church has killed and all the numbers and figures you want.... No scripture numbers... Quotations saying to the effect of - Pray to mary or pray to the saints....

    Let me help you out by saying they are not in the Bible.... I know because I've read the New Testament from the epistle of Matthew to the Revelation of Jesus Christ which is the proper title of the last book of the bible... No where does it ever say to pray to Mary or to pray to anyone other than Jesus, the Father, or the Holy Spirit... That's it...
  14. timmoishere Force Ghost

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    There are thousands of Christian denominations out there, and each one thinks theirs is the "real" denomination. Your own dismissal of Catholicism is exactly the same as how other denominations might dismiss yours. Live and let live, mkay?
  15. Saintheart Chosen One

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    I see no reason to make that bargain. I asked you for the body counts attributable of all religions, not just those attributable to Roman Catholicism, since you asserted Catholicism has killed more than any other religion in the world. You have not provided those numbers; indeed it is apparent from your responses you haven't looked with any rigor into the issue at all since you intend heading off to perform historical research after you've made the assertion of "MILLIONS DEAD AT CATHOLICS' HANDS", not before. You also haven't acceded to my assertion that it's your Church too which killed Christians and Muslims up until Luther or whichever sect you belong to broke away from the Roman Catholic Church. That is particularly important to recognise when, as in your case, you're willing to contextualise and handwave religiously-motivated genocide in the Old Testament 2,000+ years ago but unwilling to contextualise mass killings in the name of Christianity about 1,000 years ago. On the other hand, I also see no reason to bargain with you on this one since your reasoning is circular, literalist, and seems coloured by somewhat irrational anti-Papal fears and perhaps most importantly, an unwillingness to concede error when apparent. It doesn't exactly suggest any response you provide back is going to come from anywhere but the nearest Protestant theological school in intellectual or physical terms.
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  16. LostOnHoth Chosen One

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    So what do you guys agree about then?

    This comment is not related but the most amusing example of religious solidarity I can recall was in Jerusalem when a Catholic bishop, an Anglican priest, a Jewish rabbi and a Muslim cleric, all of whom were usually at each other's throats, all joined forces and united together for one day for a united cause. A holy day perhaps? No it was a gay pride march.
    Last edited by LostOnHoth, Jan 18, 2014
  17. timmoishere Force Ghost

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    The crime called blasphemy was invented by priests for the purpose of defending doctrines not able to take care of themselves.
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  18. Lowbacca_1977 Force Ghost

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    I think you're thinking of heresy, not blasphemy. Blasphemy is shielding god, heresy is shielding doctrine.
  19. harpua Chosen One

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    So the new testament wasn't written in a different age, time, and culture?
    Last edited by harpua, Jan 18, 2014
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  20. Skywalker8921 Jedi Grand Master

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    @timmoishere, you are correct, but remember, when Jesus said the Old Testament still applied, He was speaking to Pharisees and other religious authorities, ie. the leaders of the Jews. The Old Testament was written for the nation of Israel. He fulfilled the Law. After His resurrection and the beginning of the Church, the majority of the early Christians were Jewish. It wasn't until Peter preached the Gospel to Cornelius and Paul followed in his footsteps that non Jews began to enter the Church. And some of the believeing Pharisees taught that the new converts must keep the Law, which the church leaders in Jerusalem had not commanded. At the Jerusalem Council, Peter said, "He made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith. Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing on the necks of the disciples a yoke that niether our fathers nor we have been able to bear?"

    The general concensus in the centuries since then has always seemed to be that Christians are not bound by the Old Testament Law as a whole, only the aspects that are transferred to the New Covenant. (ie the Ten Commandments, the moral laws regarding incest, ect.) Jewish Christians may feel obligated to keep the Law, but Gentile Christinas are not. So please, stop harping on the Old Testament Laws and how Christians are cherry picking by not obeying them. It's getting old.
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  21. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    So the Bible is supposed to be taken literally except for the Old Testament, because it was written in a different time and culture, as opposed to the New Testament, which was written in 2014 somewhere in the Western Hemisphere?

    Mmmmmkay.

    The attitude that any denomination of people who believe that Jesus is divine are not "real Christians" is both hilarious and sad, and drove me away from Christianity, although that was not the major reason I left. (Just another example of using a very ineffective approach, an approach that backfires, in a faith that demands evangelizing.) I remember this joke when I was a kid and I think it applies here:

    St. Peter was giving a tour of the Pearly Gates to a few people who had just arrived; they were busy being impressed with all the amenities when he suddenly told them that they had to be absolutely quiet when they passed by a particular room. Someone asked why, and the good first Pope replied, "The Bible literalists are in there, and they think they are the only ones here."

    I've heard that joke applied to several denominations and I appreciate its making light of the sheer arrogance of the assumption that one person or group knows the "right" way to practice a faith and anyone who practices it differently is "wrong." Wasn't this what Jesus preached about in that parable about the wedding guest trying to move himself to the head of the table? What about "he who exalts himself shall be humbled"?

    My understanding, and I'm going to pull up the dictionary.com definition to see, is that anyone who believes Jesus of Nazareth is the divine Son of God is a Christian. Catholics certainly qualify here.
  22. Skywalker8921 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2011
    star 4
    I certainly don't take the attitude that Catholics are not Christian, @anakinfansince1983.

    @MasterSanders, I do have issues with Catholic doctrine and beliefs, but to call all Catholics not "true Christians" is ludicrous. I have several friends who were raised Catholic. I have no doubt there are good people in the Church who strive to live the way Christ taught we should live, but to tar all Catholics with the same brush because of the Church's actions, both past and present, is just wrong.
    Sarge and anakinfansince1983 like this.
  23. MasterSanders Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2014
    star 1
    I never said that... If you look through my previous posts I have said there are many christians that are catholic but not all catholics are christians, which can be said about baptists, methodists, etc... However my contention is with doctrine, beliefs, practices, and atrocities that have been committed by the catholic church because of the Vatican and the Papacy... This is where I have my problem...
  24. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    Oddly enough, I agree: Geoffrey Robertson once pointed out that it's actually impossible to meaningfully blaspheme against the vast sweep of inspiration that constitutes the Bible, which was one reason why the UK abolished it as a criminal offence about a hundred-odd years ago if I remember right. I have no difficulty whatsoever with the proposition that some religious doctrines deserve attack and condemnation.
  25. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    As someone once said: attend the beam in thine own eye first, since then you'll see clearly enough to pluck out the splinter in that of thy neighbour's. Unless you'd like to talk about the Biblical justifications made in various Protestant churches for both slavery and that people with black skin had been cursed to the servitude of white Anglo-Saxons in perpetuity.
    Last edited by Saintheart, Jan 19, 2014
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.