Senate Understanding Islam (and reading the Qur'an chapter by chapter)

Now seems like a good time to have a discussion focused on Islam.

I hope this thread to be a place of understanding, to dispel myths, and not a place that tolerates ignorance or outright bigotry. There should be discussion, it's of course fine to disagree with an Islamic belief, but there should be no hateful Islam-bashing and especially no attacks towards Muslim people, who are just as human and diverse as any other group of people. It shouldn't have to be said, but considering how some larger national discussions are going right now, it needs to be said. We also have to make some generalizations in this thread, for sake of discussion, but I also recognize that each generalization will never be true for everyone. For example, not all Christians believe Jesus literally came back to life, but I would still generalize Christians to believe Jesus was resurrected. The importance is that we always remain respectful, even if we disagree.

I had a years-long conversation on religion through private messages on this board with a fellow Star Wars fan who used to come here often, and who is Muslim and spent some time living with family in Egypt. Perhaps he will return for parts of this discussion. I've also taken college classes on religious studies, two including Islam, and have done a lot of independent research.

But I am still a novice and learning a lot, which is why I bought a copy of the Qur'an about 2 years ago. I haven't really had time to read it yet. So I'm thinking about reading it Sura (chapter) by Sura, and posting about it here. Similar to a thread on the Bible a few years back, so we can all learn more and discuss it together.

To begin, some theologians have said there are 6 core beliefs in Islam, which are different from the 5 pillars, which I'll cover later. Briefly, these 6 core beliefs are:

1. There is One God
2. Angels communicate the will of God
3. Prophets communicate the will of God
4. Holy Books communicate the will of God
5. God will judge each person and determine their afterlife based on the person's choices
6. God's will is supreme, so what God decides or plans will happen with certainty

The prophets include Mohammed, but also the major figures of Judaism and Christianity, including Abraham, Moses, and Jesus.

In fact, in Islam, Jesus is still considered the Messiah, and will return to Earth to overcome evil for all time. They even believe he was born by virgin birth, like most Christians. The difference is Muslims believe Jesus is all these things without being divine himself, that he isn't the son of God more than any other human or major prophet.

As for Holy Books, the Qur'an is one and said to be uncorrupted, but the Bible is included too. More on this later. But the point is teachings like the 5 Pillars aren't supposed to take the place of the 10 commandments, just reinforce or strengthen them and other older teachings.

As for angels, the Angel Gabriel that is said to have appeared to Mary to announce Jesus is also said to be the same angel to convert Mohammed. Muslims don't believe Islam started with Mohammed, even if he came up with the name, they believe he is merely the final prophet and that the messages of others before him were simply forgotten or distorted, although a lot of it is reinforced from the Judeo-Christian tradition too.

I hope this, plus recent events, is enough to get us started. Please feel free to add your own (respectful) comments and questions and topics. I will probably elaborate a little more on the introduction to Islam, then begin my reading of the Qur'an.

 

This conversation is already going on.

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/the-theist-atheist-thunderdome™.50018058/page-153#post-52881434

 

This thread isn't meant to be a thunder dome between atheists and people of all religions. It's about understanding Islam. And starting a chapter by chapter read-through of the Qur'an. Just like how there is an Understanding Christianity thread, and was a thread in reading the Bible chapter by chapter. The discussion of Islam is appearing in lots of threads right now. But this is a thread just for understanding Islam.

 

So, you're going to read the Qur'an and subject us to your interpretations of it? Sounds more like blog material, man.

 

This will also be an overall discussion on Understanding Islam. An educational thread. Not just about my posts. I hope to post the original material too.

The same was done with Christianity and the Bible.

I remember you opposed me creating one Gun Control thread too, when that discussion used to be spread across different threads and a new thread for each new shooting. I think it helped that discussion to have a main place to go to. Similar to this here. But I don't want this thread to only be about recent news, but understanding, studying, debating the fundamentals, at the very source, too.

 

Hopefully I'm allowed to share this here.
I went to a southern Baptist school from Pre-K all the way up through 8th grade. In 5th grade I had to explain to my religion teacher that, within the context of Christianity, Allah was not "the false god of Islam" as our Christian-perspective textbook stated. Her response was, "I know some people think all of the gods in every religion are the same, but we're not going to talk about that here." I told her that's not what I was saying, but rather that Allah was merely the Arabic word for "God," and that Muslims worshipped exactly the same God as the Christians and the Jews and believed in many of the same things as they did. She refused to believe me.

It was one of the most frustrating moments of my entire life.

 

I'm sure much of the country would also refuse to believe that.

 

Done

www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/

 

Show us the path of those who are on the path of the path of those who are on it.

 

The 5 Pillars of Islam:

1. the recital of its declaration of faith, of which there are some variants: "There is no god but God, and Mohammed is his prophet."
2. the five daily prayers, while facing toward the Kaaba in Mecca
3. the giving of charity back to the community, by what a person is able (if a person is very poor, simple acts of kindness could also qualify, but the purpose is to decrease economic inequality and encourage giving back to their community)
4. fasting for those who are able, such as during the month of Ramadan, or as part of repentance, in order to become closer to God, be forgiven, and remember the needy
5. a pilgrimage to Mecca at least once in a person's lifetime, during a specific month in their calendar, if one is able, and participating in its rituals

As I said earlier, these aren't meant to replace the 10 Commandments, but reinforce or add to them, and create a closer community and culture through ritual to better become one people under God.


Here are two maps, showing the concentration of Muslims in each country and the splits between different sects:




Interesting facts:

Which country has the largest total number of Muslims in the world?

India

(and Indonesia is the largest Muslim-majority nation)






Here is the first part of a very good PBS documentary on Islam and its history, starting at the beginning:

 

This is like my Intro to Islam course.

Fascinating.

This is all on the overhead Powerpoint.

 

I just want to give an overview before diving in, so everyone has the same basic overview. Like I do with most of my threads. And it gives more info for people to discuss. And yes, this thread is about Understanding Islam.

If you want to actually contribute something, start to discuss something I've mentioned or discuss something that you bring to the thread, please do.

 

Honestly, neither this nor the atheist thunderdome thread discussion on Islam are good ideas. There aren't enough Muslims who post in the JCC to get a good dialogue going and it's just going to end up being a bunch of non-Muslims discussing their interpretations of Islam.

 

Two main sects, Sunni and Shia.

Sunni: most numerous of the two sects. Referred to as the orthodox sect. Claim their lineage back to the non-family heirs, or subsequent caliphs. However, they believe they are just placeholders as Muhammed was the final prophet. No one can take his place essentially. There is no rightful heir.

Shia: Claim son in law of Muhammed, Ali, as rightful heir. His two sons, Hassan and Hussein, died fighting for claims to lead. Their deaths in struggle to claim leadership gave rise to Shia idea of martyrdom.

Lord Vivec, so only adherents can comment or discuss?

 

I think the point is that everyone is free to discuss and comment but it is something of a useless exercise when there aren 't many (if any) actual Muslims to contribute. Unlike the other threads where we have actual Atheists , Christians , Bahai, Mormons and Jews etcetc to dive in and clarify stuff

 

Isn't Mr. Ninja BobaFett2001?

But your point is well-taken. It would certainly enhance the discussion to have people of faith contribute to it rather than outsiders.

 

Uh, no. And I'm saddened that you interpreted my post this way.

Of course non-Muslims can and should discuss Islam. But you tell me with a straight face that it'll be a good discussion for a whole bunch of non-Muslims discussing what they think Islam is about with very little to no input from actual Muslims. Imagine that myself, Ender, timmo, VLM, and all the JCC atheists decided to have a have an understanding Christianity thread with almost no input from any Christians. What a great discussion that would be, right? Or an atheism thread with OZK, J-Rod, and the stream of right wing christian conservative noobs that manage to find their way to the JCC. A very fair discussion.

 

How many undergrads who take courses or core classes for a major are experts in their field when they take them? You will never have a discussion with complete fairness. There are always human traits like bias, prejudice, etc that creep in.

But yes, it would enhance the discussion to have one of the devout as a contributor. But, it doesn't require it to be productive.

 

The thing is that every piece of scripture seems to have a tradition or some kind of context to it which is something like a cypher which is used by "scholars" to interpret the text. So even something like "and God called down to His People and He called upon all with ginger hair to be slain and the earth salted beneath their feet" can be explained away as kind of allegory or other symbolic mumbo jumbo depending on the school of thought which the scholar subscribes to.

 

Hey guys, I haven't been on here for ages but thought I'd drop in when I heard about this thread.

I really like the initiative by Ghost, and as a Muslim I hope to contribute and possibly clarify some points that come up during the discussion. I'm no scholar or anything, more of an average Muslim Joe actually, but I do like a good stimulating discussion from time to time

The intro by Ghost is actually pretty spot on, and written better than I could have written myself. I would also highly recommend watching the full documentary that he posted, especially if like most people you don't know much about Islamic history for the last 1400 years. It goes into what a caliphate really looked like historically and how non-Muslims lived under Muslim rule from the time of Mohammed PBUH until the 20th century and the fall of the Ottoman Empire.

Ghost is also quite right in that, although the core aspects of Islam are more or less the same among Muslims, some aspects of it are interpreted and implemented with a degree of variation among different Muslim groups, and even individuals within those groups. This is why an analysis of the message of Islam coupled with some historical knowledge of its actual implementation is, in my opinion, a decent foundation for a deeper analysis.

A couple of things I think I should add. The main source of guidance for Muslims is the Qur'an. Instead of the link above, which seems to be written and commented on by people with very little knowledge about the Qur'an (among other things), I would suggest checking out quran.com, which is a mainstream site that provides multiple simultaneous translations of Qur'anic text. This helps in avoiding translation-based interpretations which in some cases do not coincide with the view of the mainstream scholars. The Qur'an is originally written in Arabic and many Muslim children around the world learn Arabic in order to understand the Qur'an first-hand. Along with the Qur'an, the second source of guidance for Muslims is the "sunnah" or the "way of the Prophet", which is similar to the Gospels in that it's a collection of documented incidents throughout the life of Mohammed PBUH that in some cases clarify certain parts of the Qur'an.

Another interesting fact: only around 20 percent of Muslims are Arabs. That's why when someone calls on "killing all Arabs" they would still have 80% of the Muslims to worry about, and would also kill tens of millions of Arab Christians and other faiths along the way. Just sayin'.

 

All I want to know is why people who follow this particular religion seem to be more inclined to blow themselves up and kill people than other religions. I mean sure, there are extremist groups in all religions, and I'm sure we can point out horrendous acts of violence in the modern day world made in the name of Christianity or Hinduism or whatever other religion. But its is obvious that the ones done in the name of Islam vastly outnumber the ones done in the name of other religions.

Why is that? Or maybe I have it all wrong and has to do with their culture, not the religion. What makes these people more likely to do these things than others?

 

Undergrads have professors and TA's to explain away misconceptions.

 

Yes. That is obvious. However, discussion and inquiry can lead to more serious discussion and inquiry. It is true this could lead to a circular round and round without any clear direction and guidance. But, that's the limitations we have here.

 

don't forget the cheeba sect where they smoke cheeba and shoot up meth and snort coke and form a douche state.

 

This thread should be renamed, "ITT Ghost whitesplains Islam."