Underworld #5 (or Why did I end up buying all 5 issues?) (Spoilers)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by wampa, Jun 20, 2001.

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  1. Bria Manager Emeritus, -MNFF Council

    Member Since:
    May 15, 1999
    star 7
    I don't think the continuty problems were fixed at all. I'll re-read (the horror! :()the issues though to be sure.

    Do agree with you on your opinion about the series though, MT. ;)

    ~*~Bria
  2. Mavrick889 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 27, 1999
    star 4
    "In this case, they are altering EU. Rebel Dawn might be the best book in the EU and it clearly states that after Ylesia Han and Bria never saw each other again. It makes it clear that Han and Lando only saw each other once and it ended badly. It makes it clear that the Ylesia assault and ANH took place mere days from each other."


    Yes, they do take place within a few days of each other...the battle of ylesia takes place 11 days BSW4 based on my notes on that book. AND based on those notes, I was able to place Underworld better in the timeline. It starts at 8 days BSW4 and end at 3 days BSW4, which is plenty of time, and fits PERFECTLY into the space of time alloted by AC Crispin in her book. Don't try contradict me, I've done the research. Here, I'll even post this part of my timeline here for all you people as anal as me.



    13 ? 11 days BSW4
    Rebel Dawn (pg. 324 ? 370)

    10 days BSW4
    Adventure Journal # 1: Breaking Free (pg. 200 ? 202)
    Jabba the Hutt # 1: The Gaar Suppoon Hit
    Jabba the Hutt # 2: The Hunger of Princess Nampi
    Jabba the Hutt # 3: The Dynasty Trap (pg. 1- 16)

    9 days BSW4
    Jabba the Hutt # 3: The Dynasty Trap (pg. 17 ? 24)
    Jabba the Hutt # 4: Betrayal
    Tales from Jabba?s Palace: A Boy and his Monster (pg. 6 ? 9)

    8 days BSW4
    Rebel Dawn (pg. 371 ? 373)
    Tales from Jabba?s Palace: A Boy and his Monster (pg. 9 ? 12)
    Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina: A Hunter?s Fate (pg. 46 ? 57)
    Underworld: The Yavin Vassilika # 1 (pg. 1 ?6)

    7 days BSW4
    Underworld: The Yavin Vassilika (pg. 7 - 13)
    Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina: A Hunter?s Fate (pg. 57 - 59)
    Underworld: The Yavin Vassilika # 1 (pg. 14 - 22)
    Adventure Journal # 5: A Buyer?s Guide to Alternative Starships
    X-Wing: The Great Search (pg. 233 - 234)

    6 days BSW4
    X-Wing: The Great Search # 7: Protect a Disabled X-Wing (pg. 235 - 238)
    Underworld: The Yavin Vassilika # 2
    Dark Forces # 1: Soldier for the Empire (pg. 88 ? 100)

    5 days BSW4
    Underworld: The Yavin Vassilika # 3
    X-Wing: The Great Search # 8: Stop Hyperdrive Replace (pg.239 - 242)
    X-Wing: The Great Search # 9: Take Out Intrepid Escorts (pg. 242 ? 246)
    X-Wing: The Great Search #10: Destroy the Intrepid (pg. 246 - 251)
    Shadows of the Empire Sourcebook: Spero?s Flight

    4 days BSW4
    Underworld: The Yavin Vassilika # 4
    Underworld: The Yavin Vassilika # 5 (pg. 1 ? 8)
    Dark Forces: Soldier for the Empire (pg. 100)
    Episode IV: A New Hope (radio drama) (pg. 43 ? 53)

    3 days BSW4
    Underworld: The Yavin Vassilika # 5 (pg. 9 ? 21)

    2 days BSW4
    Dark Forces: Soldier for the Empire (pg. 102 ? 107)
    Episode IV: A New Hope (radio drama) (pg. 53 ? 61)
    Rebel Dawn (pg. 373 ? 375)



    Continued...
    "Yet this series directly alters those facts. There's simply no reason for that. Dark Horse has a fixation with getting as many stories between those tiny gaps as they possibly can. "

    No argument there. Not sure if its a bad thing but whatever...

    "They've taken to altering the EU and I don't like that."

    A bad, and incorrect generalization...


    "Quite frankly, this story shouldn't have happened like it did because it directly contradicts the books."

    As i pointed out already, no they dont...read them in that order, i guarantee it works and that that is how it was intended.

    "The books are valued more than a comic series."

    By who? You? Since when is this the case?

    " Yet this comic arrogantly dismissed what happened in the Young Han Solo series and the YHS series is one of the best in the EU. "

    Again, dead wrong. Sorry pal, you're hitting zero tonight.

  3. DaJames Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2000
    star 4
    I think the problem so many ppl have with Underworld, is that intrudes itself into that space. As you've pointed out, those ten days are one of the most well-defined periods of SW, and all those stories WORK. They fit together seamlessly, it's one of the miracles of EU. Everything, however is setup for ANH to happen. I don't normally read comics, but from what i've gathered the plot goes something like this ;

    End of Rebel Dawn situation (han, bria, lando fallen out), hated enemies and unlikey ex-friends join together to hunt for a rather trivial item when all of them have better things to do (like Han is supposed to be en route to Kessel, for instance, and Greedo is still on Nar Shaddaa trying to BECOME a bounty hunter). They travel to Yavin IV, one of the most secret places in the galaxy at that time, where the comic finishes leaving han-bria-lando who just became friends again, hated enemies once more. Huh?

    No character development, weird and improbable relationships, and if everything is supposed to be the same as it was several days ago, why is it there at all, that is what Bria is wondering. And others do too.

    Don't get me wrong, i well appreciate the idea of getting all those characters together for a good romp, but it was simply placed in an impossible position and really should have being considered Infinities (or at least non-canon) from the start. That would have allowed greater enjoyment on the part of hard core fans, who are the ones that buy EU stuff, anyway.
  4. accrispin Author of the Han Solo Trilogy

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Jul 11, 1998
    star 1
    <blink>

    Somebody used Bria in a Dark Horse comic?

    Just last year I queried Dark Horse, asking if they'd be interested in some stories featuring Bria, and I was told they had no interest in ever using the character.

    I then submitted a sample of a comic book script (set in another universe) that I had written, to show DH that I could write comic books, and got back a form-type email that said, essentially, "Dear Author, we don't read unsolicited material."

    This is all very interesting, and, forgive me, a bit depressing.

    <sigh>

    But when you do tie-in work, one has to expect this sort of thing...

    -Ann C. Crispin

    -Ann C. Crispin
  5. Mavrick889 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 27, 1999
    star 4
    I suppose I agree...except for the part about the harcore fans wanting it to be infinities. Although, yes, I am enjoying the series somewhat, I cant say i want to see any more infinities. Id like as much real EU as possible. Oh yea after rereading the final scene between lando and han in rebel dawn, ive readusted my timeline, and it actually works a little better...means more space between the battle of ylesia anda new hope, but it actually works better. In fact, now, the you all rememeber in Rebel Dawn how Jabba gives Han 10 days to get the money back for the spice? In my timeline now, I have that 10th day being the first meeting between Han and Greedo on Tatooine in Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina, and Jabba's reaction to all of it seems to work really well.. Here you go, all. By the way, this isnt my full version of the pre "A New Hope" timeline, only the Han Solo related entries.



    45 days BSW4
    Rebel Dawn (pg. 237 ? 239)

    40 ? 37 days BSW4
    Rebel Dawn (pg. 240 ? 262)

    36 days BSW4
    Rebel Dawn (pg. 263 ? 277)

    35 days BSW4
    Rebel Dawn (pg. 277 ? 279)

    34 days BSW4
    Way of the Wookiee (pg. 1 ? 27)

    33 days BSW4
    Way of the Wookiee (pg. 28 ? 41)
    Boba Fett # ½: Salvage

    32 days BSW4
    Rebel Dawn (pg. 279 ? 280)

    30 days BSW4
    Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina: A Hunter?s Fate (pg. 27 ? 46)
    Rebel Dawn (pg. 281 ? 294)

    29 days BSW4
    Rebel Dawn (pg. 294 ? 300)

    28 days BSW4

    27 - 25 days BSW4
    Rebel Dawn (pg. 300 ? 307)

    24 days BSW4
    Rebel Dawn (pg. 307 ? 310)

    23 days BSW4
    Rebel Dawn (pg. 311 ? 324)

    22 ? 20 days BSW4
    Tales from Jabba?s Palace: A Boy and his Monster (pg. 1 ? 6)
    Rebel Dawn (pg. 324 ? 370)

    19 days BSW4

    18 days BSW4
    Tales from Jabba?s Palace: A Boy and his Monster (pg. 6 ? 9)

    17 days BSW4
    Rebel Dawn (pg. 371 ? 373)
    Tales from Jabba?s Palace: A Boy and his Monster (pg. 9 ? 12)

    16 days BSW4

    15 days BSW4
    Jabba the Hutt # 1: The Gaar Suppoon Hit
    Jabba the Hutt # 2: The Hunger of Princess Nampi
    Jabba the Hutt # 3: The Dynasty Trap (pg. 1- 16)

    14 days BSW4
    Jabba the Hutt # 3: The Dynasty Trap (pg. 17 ? 24)
    Jabba the Hutt # 4: Betrayal

    13 days BSW4

    12 days BSW4

    11 days BSW4
    Rebel Dawn (pg. 373 ? 375)

    10 days BSW4

    9 days BSW4

    8 days BSW4

    7 days BSW4
    Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina: A Hunter?s Fate (pg. 46 ? 57)
    Underworld: The Yavin Vassilika # 1 (pg. 1 ?6)

    6 days BSW4
    Underworld: The Yavin Vassilika (pg. 7 - 13)
    Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina: A Hunter?s Fate (pg. 57 - 59)
    Underworld: The Yavin Vassilika # 1 (pg. 14 - 22)

    5 days BSW4
    Underworld: The Yavin Vassilika # 2

    4 days BSW4
    Underworld: The Yavin Vassilika # 3

    3 days BSW4
    Underworld: The Yavin Vassilika # 4
    Underworld: The Yavin Vassilika # 5 (pg. 1 ? 8)

    2 days BSW4
    Underworld: The Yavin Vassilika # 5 (pg. 9 ? 21)

    1 day BSW4
    The Wookiee Storybook
    Rebel Dawn (pg. 375 - 381)



  6. Mavrick889 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 27, 1999
    star 4
    Geez, thats terrible...another strike against the Dark Horse editorial staff...grrr.
  7. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    Dave Land again, [face_devil], bah, again is say bah, [face_devil].
  8. Ret Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 1999
    star 6
    All I know is I'm very confused over this whole Bria thing. I didn't start reading SW comics until TPM came out so I have no idea who she is or what the point as of having her in the book. The writer should have realized that not everyone is going to know that she and Han had a relationship or something.
  9. Mavrick889 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 27, 1999
    star 4
    Yeah...from a story telling point of view its odd. I mean, they make reference to Bria screwing Han and the smugglers over many times during the series, and then Pow, we see her again in the last issue. So, shes not a completely unexpected move, but still, it might be a little odd if one is not immersed in EU as many of us are. It seems like Mr. Kennedy knows his Star Wars history pretty well. Damn, I hope Dark Horse lets you write some comics, Ms. Crispin. Your star wars books were some of the best i've ever read. Amazing stuff, and amazing character development. Its a crime really.
  10. Darth Pipes Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 5
    Maverick, they still directly and arrogantly contradicted Rebel Dawn. I'll just disregard that crap. MT was right in saying there is too much EU stuff. They need to get some semblance of order in it.

    I'd like to see AC write for the comics myself. I read a Star Trek comic she co-wrote called "Enter the Wolves" and I have to say I was very impressed.
  11. Nightowl TFN Timetales Writer

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 4
    Maverick, could you send me all the timeline work you've done? I'm not gonna put it in Timetales (at least not without your permission), but I'd love to see it nonetheless. That's impressive research there.
  12. Graz73 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 1999
    star 1
    Ann Crespin, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this series if you'd bring yourself to read it.

    Maybe you'd at least like the way that Bria was drawn...

    That whole "Death Star plans plot has long confused me.

    Kyle Katarn stole some plans

    Bria and her group transmitted some plans

    some plans were sold in another short story.

    Maverick, could you briefly explain how those versions fit together? I know the Dark Forces: Soldier for the Empire book claims that the Bria and Kyle plots fit together, but even that was a continuity fix...

    My problem with this series was that it COULD have been fine continuity wise, if they'd changed a few minor things... To have this story take place somewhat earlier, or somewhat later and it would have been fine , but they had to shoe-horn it in where it didn't fit...

    I think that the writer didnt' even know about the whole "Rebel Dawn" thing until issue one had come out. Notice how those references don't show up until later?


  13. Mavrick889 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 27, 1999
    star 4
    "....they still directly and arrogantly contradicted Rebel Dawn..."

    WHERE?! I still have yet to find these errors.

    Chris, send me your email address privately, I'll hook you up with a copy of my timeline.
  14. Matthew Trias Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 1999
    star 6
    In Dark Force Mon Mothma says that Bria and her team got half the plans.Kyle got the other half.Bel Iblis had yet another part of the plans.And in the game Xwing,the Rebs get another part of the plans.

    All four parts made a complete schematic of the Death Star.
  15. Nightowl TFN Timetales Writer

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 4
    Maverick, my email is mcelroycg@cableone.net

    I was gonna send you an email, but I don't know your email address. (shrug)
  16. DaJames Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2000
    star 4
    With the DS plans i like the idea of there being four parts. It could be something like this :

    Bel Iblis, part 1 # : General info on Death Star. Approximate size, location, the superweapon function.

    Farlander, part 2 # : Amount of material, shipping reports, financial details, beauracrat (sp) work. Also location of technical schematics.

    Katarn, part 3 # : Structural, engineering schematics, power ratings, floor plans.

    Bria/Leia's, part 4# : Military data; troop quartering, stationed fighters, defence emplacements.

    Out of these four, the military data was vital to a proposed assault, which gives Leia's mission its urgency. In the end, it was the combination of Katarn's schematics (showing the power generators) and Leia's data which were the key to the battle. This is the reference to them being the two 'halves' of the 'plans'.
  17. Mavrick889 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 27, 1999
    star 4
    Chris, i sent the timeline. tell me what you think!
  18. Bria Manager Emeritus, -MNFF Council

    Member Since:
    May 15, 1999
    star 7
    I re-read all the issues and not only found problems with that timeline, I also found many instances where the comic *directly* contradicts Rebel Dawn. I will post these tomorrow as I have to leave for work.

    ~*~Bria
  19. Bria Manager Emeritus, -MNFF Council

    Member Since:
    May 15, 1999
    star 7
    I didn?t like the comic, but it infuriated me to learn that mere MONTHS after Dark Horse told Ms. Crispin that they weren?t interested in having her write a comic series for them, and that they would never use Bria in a story line, they do just that. That?s just despicable. It?s her character, and if they were going to use her, they should?ve had Ann write her, OR at least conferred her. They didn?t. They entruded on her territory (Rebel Dawn) and contradicted it. And this horrendous comic was the result. I think they owe it to her and her fans to let her write at least a one-shot comic, if not a small series.

    I think I do understand why Dark Horse told Ann no though. First of all, as Ret pointed out, not everyone is going to know who Bria is. If that is in fact the reason, it?s a stupid one because 1) Dark Horse creates characters all the time (oh, but that?s ok, cuz *they?re* the ones doing the creating), If they were afraid that no movie characters would be in comics about Bria and Red Hand... well, let me just point you in the direction of the comic Mara Jade: By the Emperor?s Hand. Also check out the Tales line. There are non movie, EU characters in them as well. They?d done comics in the past because fans wanted them, they should allow Ann her day. From this thread alone, I know others share my opinion.

    Now... on to that timeline... I found one major problem in it was the entry 17 days before BS4. That works with Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina, because there we see Bidlo Kwerve die. The problem lies in that 10 days are up on the 7th day BS4. Yet here is Jabba hiring Han to search for the Vassilika for him. Not only that, but he?s PAYING him. Does this strike anybody as odd? Jabba said, ?Deliver the spice or the credits to me within ten days or face the consequences.?

    I found more contradictions between the comic and Rebel Dawn, but I will have to wait to post them until the next time I get online.

    ~*~Bria
  20. Matthew Trias Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 1999
    star 6
    Well if Han finds the Vassillika hes off the hook.The Vassillika is probaly worth more then that spice and Han's pay altogether,
  21. Darth Pipes Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 5
    Good work, Bria. Not only are they contradicting Rebel Dawn but it appears they are contradicting ANH as well. I don't think Han and Jabba saw each other from the point he lost Jabba's cargo to the scene in ANH. Sounds silly that they would write it this way and another pathetic attempt by Dark Horse to cram a story into the timelline.
  22. wampa Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 4
    I figured it was one of Jabba's mood swings.
    Or he needed the best and knew that was Han despite the debt.

    Either way, this was another lame attempt to get a non-hardcore audience with classic characters but still try to satisfy hardcore fans with Han Trilogy characters.

    I feel that Ms. Crispen should have at least been asked about using Han, Lando, and Bria together in the series.
  23. Bria Manager Emeritus, -MNFF Council

    Member Since:
    May 15, 1999
    star 7
    Yes, the Vassilika is worth more, but.... I don't think Jabba
    would make an exception for Han. He said so himself, and by giving him the job, even taking out the money (it's around 12,000) to pay for the spice, he'd be favor Han. Jabba said he can't play favorites. ;)

    More contradictions tomorrow. :D

    ~*~Bria

  24. DoomJawa Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2001
    This was posted over on the DH boards:

    ----------------------------------
    This is a touchy situation.

    I know Ann is upset over Underworld. The simple answer is that Lucasfilm owns all the characters that appear in all Star Wars stories. Lucasfilm approved the use of Bria and made no mention of us consulting Ann.

    As for Ann saying that she was told by Dark Horse that we weren't going to use Bria: In all my time as Star Wars editor I've never been contacted by Ann or told by anyone at Dark Horse that they spoke to her regarding characters she created.

    --Dave Land
  25. Matthew Trias Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 1999
    star 6
    But Jabba wanted to prove that he was better then all the other Hutts.

    He needed Han to do that.

    His ego was more important.

    Besides..he did play favorites..in ANH...
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