Underworld #5 (or Why did I end up buying all 5 issues?) (Spoilers)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by wampa, Jun 20, 2001.

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  1. Darth Pipes Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 5
    It's still crap what Dark Horse did. They basically spat all over one of my favorite books and are hiding behind that "Lucasfilm made no mention" crap. Anything to plug yet another bad comic in a desperate attempt to make more money off the SW name.

    Any chance Dark Horse can plug another one of their contradictory, winner stories in that whopping two day time span between this comic and ANH? I bet they can.
  2. Bria Manager Emeritus, -MNFF Council

    Member Since:
    May 15, 1999
    star 7
    Yes, Jabba does favor Han in ANH, but that?s my point. Would he do so twice? In the Yavin Vassilika *and* in A New Hope? I don?t think so.

    Interesting what Dave said. Yes, Lucasfilm owns the characters, but *most* author?s consul with other author?s when using their characters. It?s been done in the past, but it wasn?t done here. I find that very rude. :( ESPECIALLY when it screws up the OFFICIAL narrative of events approved by LFL. :mad: Maverick, I think these were some of the contradictions Darth Pipes was talking about. ;)

    Here are more contradictions between Rebel Dawn and Yavin Vassilika.

    Issue 4:

    Lando says Han ?invited? the Rebels to the raid on Ylesia. Han says he invited one, she invited her friends.

    Ummm..... where did they come *up* with this? The Rebellion came up with the idea for the raid, and *Bria* brought the idea up to Han and he helped get smugglars get involved.

    Issue 5

    Lando says he didn?t want the ?Rebel friend? in on the Besadil spice.

    Again, not true. *Lando* wanted in. Han asked him if he was sure, in Rebel Dawn. Lando said yes. Not to mention the fact that Lando *LIKED* Bria (before Ylesia of course).

    For DH to suggest it was otherwise is just wrong.

    There are more, but they?ll have to wait.

    ~*~Bria
  3. Darth Pipes Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 5
    Very true, Bria. Jabba gave Han his second chance during ANH. When Han failed to make deliverey, Jabba went after him.

    If Jabba had failed Han directly after the aborted spice run failure, then he would have had attempted to kill Han at Tatooine. Not only is Dark Horse attempting to alter the events of Rebel Dawn but the events of ANH as well. You don't tamper with the films. This is a problem with the EU.

    Dark Horse has utilized Timothey Zahn to write Mara in the past. Remember the story in SW Tales #1?
  4. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    Yet remember it's dave land that says tales including issue #1 are not part of continuity, bah, :(. This is more proof of LFL DH department crapping out.
  5. Darth Pipes Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 5
    Star Wars Tales is another example. Once a fine comic, it has not descended into bad comedy. Now it's written off as "Infinities" It would really be nice to see this one return to a state of glory and see an end to crap like Underworld.
  6. Graz73 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 1999
    star 1
    http://www.darkhorse.com/community/boards/topic.tpl?_messageID=33117657464536

    There's the link to that DarkHorse forum.

    Dave Land (The head SW editor) posts several times in this thread about this Crispin thing. He's not very appologetic. I know he's trying his best, but he seems not very concerned with continuity...

    Go tell him what you think!
  7. Matthew Trias Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 1999
    star 6
    "You don't tamper with the films. This is a problem with the EU. "

    uh huh....

    Personally the whole thing about Jabba and Han is a matter of opinion.Personally I think Jabba did like Han that much.

    I might he let's Han step on his tail for cryin out loud!

    I remain unconvinced.

    As for the other continuity flubs...I get to them later
  8. Darth Pipes Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 5
    The EU is always trying to contradict the films.

    Of course, Land isn't going to admit he's wrong. Because he knows he is wrong.
  9. Bria Manager Emeritus, -MNFF Council

    Member Since:
    May 15, 1999
    star 7
    *I posted this to the DH boards as well.

    Yes, Ann wasn't consulted on this. She did create Bria's character after all. It may not be *required* by LFL that DH do this, but it would've been the *polite* thing to do. Writing in SW has been described by more than one author as being a member of a large family. They work together. Check out the dedication pages in Star Wars novels to see what I mean.

    The fact that she wasn't consulted isn't my biggest complaint. Not by a long shot. My problem was with the entire comic itself. Allow me to explain:


    Let me start off by saying I am not out to bash Dark Horse. Not at all. I am just very disappointed with them at the moment. I have been a fan of Star Wars since the Special Editions, and a paying customer since then. For the most part, I?ve been really happy with them and the work they produce. Usually, it?s excellent, IMHO. Sure, here and there I come across something I?m not too fond of, but it?s bound to happen.

    One thing I like about Star Wars is how things fit together. LFL works with the different companies so that everything is connected. There is the official indisputable canon, and then there is the EU. I am a fan of both, as I would assume my fellow SW comic readers are, because Dark Horse?s comics are EU. While there are issues in the past that I have not liked, nothing upset me as the Yavin Vassilika did.

    Usually, in the comics the writer is creating their own story, and there is no problem. But the Yavin Vassilika intruded on space where there was already a LFL approved timeline. I of course am speaking of Rebel Dawn. There were other places where the YV contradicted previous works, but RD was hit worse by these. I find it sad to think that Dark Horse doesn?t appear to *care* that they didn?t follow the continuity. When I read Mr. Land?s letter at the end of issue 2, I trusted things would work out. It?d either fit or, I assumed, it?d be sent into the realms of Infinities.

    When I realized this wasn?t the case, I went back over the letter, and realized that wasn?t what he said at all. These are his exact words: ?We do try to keep track of all the different stories when possible. Many thanks to Lucas Licensing?s Allan Kausch for helping me with this. However (and *this* is the important part), I don?t think this should limit us from telling fun and imaginative stories, which might not fit so nicely into existing continuity, from time to time.? There... it was said... the story might not fit... And, when all is said and done it does *not* fit. It doesn?t even take in-depth research to see that it doesn?t fit. A reading of Rebel Dawn proves this story couldn?t have taken place... not only because of the timeline, but also because of the *content* I will point out the errors shortly.

    First of all... just when does this take place? Issue 1 says the series takes place ?shortly before Episode IV. That really doesn?t give you any specific details. The only thing I can say with 100% percent certainty is that this takes place after the raid on Besadii clan at Ylesia and the dumping of the Kessel Spice. Here is the timeline of what happens after the Battle of Ylesia

    1) finds orphans left behind in the confusion on Ylesia and takes them aboard the Falcon

    2) 6 hours later, Jabba calls Han and asks him to pick up a load of spice on Kessel, does the Run and is forced drop the spice by Imperials

    3) a week later Han contacts Jabba, and it is clear they haven?t spoken in this time, so the YV couldn?t have take place here. Jabba gives Han 10 days to give him the spice or pay for it.

    4) 6 days pass, and when Han fails to scrape up the credits from people who OWE him (no mention of *looking for work*, he goes to Nar Shadda. Shug is off-planet and can?t help him. He then goes to Lando?s apartment. Lando tells Han?s that he has a lot of nerve to come to him after what he pulled on Ylesia. It can therefore be concluded that the comic has to be after this scene. Lando tells Han he doesn?t believe that Han wasn?t in on Ylesia and their friendship is
  10. Darth Pipes Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 5
    Great post, Bria. Very well on target. :)
  11. Bria Manager Emeritus, -MNFF Council

    Member Since:
    May 15, 1999
    star 7
    Thanks, DP. Feel free to back me up over at the Dark Horse boards. There are other familiar faces over there. ;)

    ~*~Bria
  12. Darth Pipes Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 5
  13. MPeriolat Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Believe me, I'm as livid about this as most of you are, mainly because Crispen was kept out of the loop. When Peet was in charge, folks like Zahn and Stackpole were free to help and write. Land seems intent on turning Dark Horse into an ALTERNATE SW universe, rather that expanding the EU. Infinities are fine for some folk, but I always did enjoy having the EU expanded once a month or so. But this, this is no good.

    A thought: in a few weeks, I'm going to San Diego for the Comic-Con there. One wonders if Land will be there and if anyone will have the guts to call him on the carpet about this.

    Matt
  14. Darth Pipes Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 5
    Agreed. There's been far too much emphasis on (bad) comedy and Infinities. I'm enjoying Infinities but it sucks that they've turned the once-great SW Tales into it. It doesn't need to be expanded beyond one series.

    BTW, notice how no one's responded since Bria's post and my post on the Dark Horse forums?
  15. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    I somewhat agree with what bria has said, but I can see were others are coming from as well, but I do think all the blame for "infinities" junk, the idea and series must be put largely on Dave Land's shoulders and a few others(cuase sansweet hasn't backed down from his view of what the canon/continutiuty rules are, neither does it seem del rey has as well), it was largely something he allowed to be released.

    I remember back in "ask Dave Land thread" he told everyone underworld wasn't part of continuity. I guess he was semi Right. He did give a warning so it's not like we you can blame him for trying to fit in. I remember people attacked him for not making it a continuity story, yet when it semi fits in with a good push and crunch, people get mad again. Dave Land can't please anyone, ;), he's disliked by alot of people it seems.
  16. Graz73 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 1999
    star 1
    If Underworld had just avoided the Rebel Dawn references altogether it would have been fine. It would have fit in some strange corner of continuity maybe, or it's own timeline, but by bringing in Bria and all of those references, they were acknowloging continuity. Bria only exists in the EU anyway. Why mention her or her story if they're not going to get it right?

    Some of those non-continuity stories in tales are fun, but they're not trying to tie in with anything... That's what this should have done.
  17. anyueman Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2000
    star 1
    I wouldn't know how involved Land was in formulating the Infinities concept, but to place the blame squarely on his shoulders is clearly and utterly unfair. He has no authority on something of that magnitude without Lucas Licensing's seal of approval.
  18. Bria Manager Emeritus, -MNFF Council

    Member Since:
    May 15, 1999
    star 7
    Well, he responded. He told me he was sorry I didn't like the series. *rolls eyes*

    ~*~Bria
  19. MPeriolat Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    He's sorry you didn't like the series.

    HE'S SORRY????

    YOU'RE not the one he owes the apology to, Ann Crispen is. He LIED to her. That's why I'M mad. That and the alternate universe crap. Makes my stomach churn when I see people who DO try (Cloak of Deception by Lucerno, for example) and then see stuff like Tales and Underworld and you really wonder what the point is.

    Land is forgetting rule #1 here: DON'T SCREW AROUND WITH THE FAN BASE. We HATE that. And he's gonna have to answer for it.

    Matt
  20. DoomJawa Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2001
    YEAH!

    You go get 'im, Matt!

    Learn 'im up right good not to mess with your funnybooks.
  21. Matthew Trias Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 1999
    star 6
    I don't think any of the things Bria mentioned are continuity flubs.I could find fixes for all of em.

    But there's no point.Even without continuity mistakes,the series is still crap.It's not worth defending.

    As for Land..I can't believe he said that......

    He basicallu called her a liar,in so many words.

    *******!!!!
  22. DoomJawa Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2001
    Where did Land call her a liar?
  23. Matthew Trias Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 1999
    star 6
    Read in between the lines.
  24. DoomJawa Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2001
    Well over on the DH board he said

    >I'm not saying that Ann lied. I said I was never contacted by her or told about her contacting us.
    >--Dave

    To me it doesn't sound like he's calling her a liar.
  25. DoomJawa Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2001
    Yo!

    Crispin posted over on the DH board. Land replied.

    Once again --
    ----------------------------------------
    Hey, Everyone!

    Just had a nice chat with Ann on the phone.We figured out where the mis-communication was and kind of figured out how the continuity got
    as screwed up as it did. Apologies all around! I'm sorry if I or anyone else at Dark Horse ruined readers enjoyment of Ann's work or their enjoyment of Underworld.

    Ann is cool. We spoke about her writing something for Dark Horse and it looks like she might have something in an upcoming issue of Tales if all goes acording to plan!

    --Dave Land
    ----------------------------------------

    He'll probably pull her over to the Dark Side!
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