"Unknown Soldier: The Story of General Grievous" & "Lord of War" by Abel & Joe (SWI #86)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Super_Battle_Droid, Aug 20, 2005.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. TalonCard •Author: Slave Pits of Lorrd •TFN EU Staff

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Jan 31, 2001
    star 5
    >The appearance of the dead Bidlo Kwerve at the end of Rebel Dawn was one, and the Life Day placement was arguably another. <

    I'm still not sure those are actually contradictions--is there any reason why Bidlo can't die after Rebel Dawn? And are we sure that Kashyyyk scenes aren't two years before Yavin? That'd make the Life Day placement work.

    The biggest snafu, though, was Han saying that Chewie hadn't been back to Kashyyyk in fifty-three years--Chewie there was during the Empire in a flashback in Way of the Wookiee (which she referenced later in the book, so it was just a simple mistake; she wasn't ignoring the source.) Boy, oh boy, was that a headache when the news about Chewie in ROTS broke. People kept whining and complaining that Lucas was destroying the EU, refusing to believe that it was Crispin who messed up originally. Sheesh.

    Aside from all that, Crispin did a great job. The Hutt Gambit is, as far as I know, the only novel to reference the Lando trilogy and to feature a Marvel character.

    TC
  2. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 8
    Maybe for some reason Han was told a lie by Chewie.
  3. Halagad_Ventor Star Wars Author - SWRPG Designer

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2001
    star 4
    Hopefully the Insider #86 online supplement is a sign of change, so subscribers can get more bang for their buck.

    Terrific!

    Making all these characterizations a believeable part of the same individual, of course, was the problem I had to deal with while writing the Story of Grievous. The multiple-personality disorder thing had already been done with Zuckuss, after all.

    Man, I miss the cool Zuckuss from Tales of the Bounty Hunters.

    I think the pivotal moment for Grievous is his pilgrimage to Abesmi, the Kaleesh mecca. Whatever happened there, Grievous interpreted it as a rejection. Life was all or nothing for him from then on out.

    In the draft I initially submitted to LFL, I suggested that during the famine some starving Kaleesh began to engage in "the most depraved practice of their Huk enemy" (i.e. cannabalism). Guess that was too much for the censors.

    Add to this a couple factors. Grievous and the Kaleesh probably feel betrayed by the Republic since they fought alongside them during the Bithaevrian fiasco. (Not to mention that, whether the Kaleesh know it or not, the Republic, via corrupt senators, out-right used the Kaleesh in that incident). Finally, Grievous had no real future in the plans of the Sith, and was essentially a puppet.

    I'll take that as a compliment. Thanks for your comments! I do think there was a scale, lack of restraint, and severity to Grievous' actions that definitely put him more in the villain category. But being a supreme commander in a galactic-scale war isn't a position for moral relativists.

    Take care,
    Abel
  4. Sauron_18 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2005
    star 4
    I don't like it when people say that these characters make deal with the devil and the devil being palpatine. Its like justifying what they did to a certain extent. "Oh anakin wasn't evil, he just made a deal with the devil", "Oh grievous wasnt evil he---" Anakin and Grievous were evil, palpatine may have started it, but it was their choice, and it is our choices that make us who we are. And Sidious wasn't devil evil, he's just a man trying to make his way through the universe, or more specifically, trying to make the universe his way.
  5. arf_maul Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2002
    star 1
    Ah, no. There is nothing redeeming about Sidious. He is pure evil, nothing less.
  6. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 8
    You presume that making a deal with the devil invalidates such a bone headed choice. A 'Deal with the Devil' means that you are pretty much lead down the path of damnation by essentially making a compact with a person that you KNOW is a horrible being.

    Grevious I'd argue isn't necessarily someone to slap evil on though given the extreme provacations of his life and the fact that after his transformation he was operated on cranially.

    I don't think Palpatine has any justification.
  7. Halagad_Ventor Star Wars Author - SWRPG Designer

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2001
    star 4
    The Sidious thing...

    I think what makes Palpatine such an interesting character is precisely this ambiguity about his being. I think it's fascinating to think of him as "evil incarnate" simply because there's no such equivalent in our own reality. So considering him this way is a mind-bending exercise in possibility.

    That said, I do believe in taking responsibility for one's choices, and it's the reason I consider Grievous a villain ultimately. For instance, it would've made for some pretty cheesy cinema, but Grievous could've technically surrendered on any of the ocassions Obi-Wan asked him to. Do we understand why he didn't? Of course. But we're specifically told that Grievous is prideful and vain. When confronted with rejection, that kind of individual always refuses to accede, even with the knowledge that it may be or certainly is to his or her detriment.

    The fundamental difference between Grievous and Anakin is expressed in their deaths. The former dies exploding, screaming and unrepentant, and there's something viscerally satisfying about that. Miltonesque. Defiance in the face of "forever" caters to our egos. But when Anakin is asked to relent, to recognize that he is "evil," he accepts that his entire life since then has been worthless in light of what he would've liked it to be. A lot to stomach. Maybe it was his fault, maybe not, but he'll take responsibility anyway. He dies a happy man.

    Difficult questions.
  8. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 8
    Vader was lucky in that respect.

    If you wanted to do a sequel story in the future era where a Kaleesh orphan (unknowingly G's grandson) becomes a Jedi you could have him tormented by visions of a Dark Side cybernetic monster that calls him a traitor for joining the brotherhood while also demanding he avenge his people against the still civil warred against Huks.

    ...OR

    You could reveal that is merely the Kaleesh's own ideas talking where we see Grevious having passed into the Force and realized his life was wasted, there was no redemption for his people in revenge, and if he could have redone it...he would have just stayed home.

    The use of Grevious' family as what convinces him to become San Hill's monster is essentially just RotJ reversed.

    Basically, Grevious was no different than Vader except that he didn't have someone to pull him back. When he died on Utapau, it was facing down the Order that had destroyed his world and fighting against the Republic.

    Would he have been so strong against his own son and in his right mind?
  9. Halagad_Ventor Star Wars Author - SWRPG Designer

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2001
    star 4
    Great points, Charlemagne. I do go back to the pride thing, however, which is a self-defense mechanism to his grief. Grievous erected a wall to the consideration of even the possibility of being wrong about the extremes to which he took the Huk War, of whether there was more to the Jedi than just unjust enforcers, of whether war was in fact the best answer to Kalee's problems. He was a warrior, he liked that solution because it made him feel useful, and in his grief he didn't think to question it. That's a very important avenue of self-reflection that he cuts himself off from.

    Discussions about determinism and free will, of course, can all get very finicky very fast, especially with the introduction of ideas like the subconscious, a non-moral universe, and solipsism. Any scenario is arguably forever divisible into justifications for and counter-arguments against, and is mostly informed by the realities we have perceived or derived from our own experiences. Above all else, I enjoy a multiplicity of well-supported possible interpretations of a story.
  10. Halagad_Ventor Star Wars Author - SWRPG Designer

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2001
    star 4
    [face_laugh]

    And some height, maybe. This Durge looks remarkably average compared to the the He-Man on 'roids of the Clone Wars.

    I remember someone pointing that out.

    Aw, let the poor gamer make his Obi-Wan clone. I was actually more taken aback by the bluntness of one of the advertisements on the side there.

    Are you suggesting mass-generalization of a species is unreasonable based on the interpretation of one piece of art from one individual at one specific time from one specific art movement? :p

    The sun actually came out about 15 minutes after that.

    Now it's just cold again. A frigid 75 degrees!

    Take care,
    Abel
  11. Rogue_Follower Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2003
    star 6
    >>>I was actually more taken aback by the bluntness of one of the advertisements on the side there. <<<

    [face_laugh] [face_laugh] [face_laugh]

    I didn't even notice those.
  12. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 8
    Are you suggesting mass-generalization of a species is unreasonable based on the interpretation of one piece of art from one individual at one specific time from one specific art movement?


    I didn't say Thrawn was WRONGGG

    ;-)
  13. QuentinGeorge Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2003
    star 5
    Hey, it is Obi-Wan "Pimp" Kenobi...
  14. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1999
    star 6
    ...is that what girls are for?

    I'd forgotten about those. I've got Hydronium beat; everything I know about G&E is from researching a Lost reference. :-B

    It was 5 here yesterday. I hate you.
  15. Kudzu Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2005
    star 5
    I've been looking for some use for them. I figured there must be something. :p

    Two thumbs down for completely failing to childproof that site, at any rate, to the person who made it. [face_plain]
  16. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 10
    As a sidenote- I'm wondering if there might be a connection between Grievous's offspring and Necrosis's demise? The Kaleesh seem to hold their grudges long, so if one of them had any issue about what was done to their father (if they learned of it), I could see it plausible that someone could keep tabs on Grievous's remains (afterall, someone had to know about it for it to be dug out of storage). Perhaps the spacer crew was hired or somehow connected in that regards?
  17. Halagad_Ventor Star Wars Author - SWRPG Designer

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2001
    star 4
    Hey folks. Just a heads-up, I'll be taking part in a [link=http://blogs.starwars.com/abelgpena/46]celeb chat[/link] at the Galactic Senate today at 5 o'clock Easter, 8 o'clock Pacific. Please swing by!

    Ha! That's great--love the little Moff patch on 4-8C. I'm actually very intrigued by Panaka's commitment to Palp.

    So, here's the good news: seems StarWars.com has fixed the Utapau/Geonosis storehouse typo. Ah, the advantages of virtual publishing.

    The bad news: For-Atesee's superflous title is...no more. :(

    I wrote Atha into the background I did for Grand Moff Trachta. IIRC, I only mentioned that they shared some kind of connection.

    And you are...?

    Well, I've gotta admit, I never read those simply because I couldn't. But mostly I'm partial to the old Polyhedrons because they were consistently well-written and Polyhedron actually ended up having the Star Wars license.

    Petting her Wookiees.

    Thanks for the kind words, WhillJedi. There might actually... well, let's just say I'll be keeping this in mind. :)
  18. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 8
    Let me take a crack...

    Durge was hardly the stupid brute that many people made him out to be. While utterly insane and bloodthirsty, he was nevertheless possessed of a keen intellect that he simply rarely indulged in speaking of....perhaps the product of his immense lifespan. Envious of Jango Fett's serving as the template of the Clone Army, he enquired at Saelucumi about the possibility of cloning an army of himself to serve as the Confederacy's new army. Unfortunately, Durge did fail to realize that his Xen'dai DNA was surprisingly unclonable despite its amazing replicative properties. Thus, they did decide to clone Bok instead.

    However, Durge did have a complete copy of his memories saved and when the bounty hunter himself died the cloners themselves decided that it might prove advantageous to upload his consciousness into an alternate body in hopes of saving his skill. This proved to be a mistake for the result was utterly psychotic and escaped the labs before their destruction, leaving a trail of dead in his wake.
  19. DarthRotten Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2003
    star 4
    Is this issue FINALLY out? Is it on newsstands yet? I let my subscription lapse and haven't gotten around to renewing yet...
  20. Rogue_Follower Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2003
    star 6
    >>>That's great--love the little Moff patch on 4-8C.<<<

    :)

    Now think Lon Isoto... [face_mischief]

    >>> I'm actually very intrigued by Panaka's commitment to Palp.<<<

    Me too. It seems strange that he is loyal to Palpatine, especially since that encounter with Pestage in The Monster. Maybe something changed... [face_thinking]


    >>>So, here's the good news: seems StarWars.com has fixed the Utapau/Geonosis storehouse typo. Ah, the advantages of virtual publishing.

    The bad news: For-Atesee's superflous title is...no more. <<<


    Well, they're still down in my obscure error reference notes. Never known when you might need the Emperor to have a private storehouse on Geonosis... [face_peace]
  21. Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare

    VIP
    Member Since:
    May 9, 2000
    star 6
    Hmm... I'll see if I can find what this exactly said... [face_thinking]

    An Ewok? :p

    *nods* The Casus Belli stuff I've seen is IMHO pretty similar in style and quality - only, obviously, not in English. Sometimes, it's obviously playing variations on a genre theme (another Death Star) and sometimes, it can be a bit odd (time-travel back to KotOR); but it's smooth, and it's... fun. :p

    I wonder if there's any way to find out if they had any sort of official French license - they plugged the Bantam books quite a bit, and got original art from the French art team for the HttE comic to produce stats for the ships that appeared there... [face_thinking]

    :eek:

    "More than that, I don't want to know."

    [face_laugh]

    - The Imperial Ewok
  22. Halagad_Ventor Star Wars Author - SWRPG Designer

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2001
    star 4
    Unfortunately, I can't remember the examples specifically anymore, but I could've sworn a couple sources used the term Life Day as a substitute for birthday. And I almost want to say Mara was one of the characters who used it that way.

    History of the Mandalorians also had a Galaxies nod, acknowledging the survival of pockets of the Death Watch.

    I'd actually be somewhat disappointed if elements of the Separatist movement didn't get absorbed into the Rebel Alliance. It just makes too much sense (note that Fenn Shysa, a former Separatist, ends up joining the Rebellion). I'm also interested in the possibility of the Neimoidians joining the Rebels; I remember the last HoloNet News has pretty defiant quotes from their leadership toward Imperial edict.

    I'd originally thought about having one of Grievous' children become Necrosis, but no matter how I spun it, it seemed like a cheap retread.

    The concept of consciousness is interesting. I see a (Blade Runner)² storyline for Necrosis. My opinion is that before being dismantled, not only does Necrosis believe it is conscious, but does end up believing it was specifically Grievous, or at least that it felt it could justifiably believe it was.

    Good observation. Of course, the Quarren actually end up betraying the planet to the Empire at one point, which is somewhat odd in the new Clone Wars context. I actually liked it in those early Republic issues when it was the Mon Cals allied with the Seps.

    I like these points, and the last one is the most important.

    Does anyone remember the rational behind calling Kyp a mass murderer but letting Luke get off scot free?

    You better pray someone names a beer after you then, Coop.

    Take care,
    Abel
  23. Rogue_Follower Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2003
    star 6
    [image=http://www.cooperspubs.com/images/beer/labels/l400_labellight.jpg]

    [face_peace]
  24. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1999
    star 6
    Ha!




    ...you're like a little image factory, aren't you?
  25. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 8
    Good observation. Of course, the Quarren actually end up betraying the planet to the Empire at one point, which is somewhat odd in the new Clone Wars context. I actually liked it in those early Republic issues when it was the Mon Cals allied with the Seps.

    I tend to be fairly simple in this respect and say that the best way to think of it is to stop trying to make "Quarren Bad" and "Mon Calamari Good." The people of Dak (aka Mon Calamari) had two factions with lots of racial crossover.

    The Quarren who betrayed the planet to the Mon Calamari to the Empire were Republic Loyalists.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.