Lit "Unlearn what you have learned" - The Jedi Thread

What's the explanation to Windu's blade? Likewise Ahsoka's second as a Jedi as off-green.

Are other colors theoretically possible?

 

I dont think there is one yet. Windu has purple, Ahsoka's shoto is a yellow green, and the Temple Guards have yellow.

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Taking the religious view, the Force is in all people and makes use of all things.

Coincidences, destiny, and influence as well as advice.

But people can choose their own path.

My view is Anakin was MEANT to defeat Palpatine by aiding Mace Windu...but obviously didn't.

 

meant by who

 

My view tends more towards viewing prophecies as forecasts. Anakin would bring balance to the Force one day - that much was true.

 

but if there was no prophecy would Qui-Gon have left Anakin on Tatooine

 

If Qui-Gon had left Anakin on Tatooine, there may not have been a prophecy.

I

 

I wrote this elsewhere prompted by an Ep 8 theory floating around out there:

It's really easy, with Star Wars, to get hung up on the light and dark sides of the Force and traditional yin-yang type symbolism. It's not an exact parallel though, between the two.

The light side, contrary to yang, is associated with what are traditionally feminine qualities. Calm, at peace, passive. Receptivity. While the dark side is more masculine. Aggression, anger, hatred. Imposing. We see this embodied with the Force wielders of Mortis having the Daughter as personification of the light side of the Force, and the Son as its dark side.

So, the entire course of both Anakin's and Luke's training is actually embracing the Feminine rather than the Masculine.

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That's kind of true? But the thing is the "light side" is sort of a misnomer, too, right?

It's the Force. And the Force has a dark side. I think people think the "light side" is, like, being cherubic all the time, but it seems a lot more like the middle path.

 

Note: I ran out of here, and I apologize for that. I just felt I wasn't being very contributive, but I've had some time to collect my thoughts.

*nods* Tbf, your description is what I've heard meditation should be. Full disclosure, I've only a middling understanding of meditation, and I shot my mouth off - another reason why I wanted to compose myself before I returned.

And, Qui-Gon is an excellent example of what, IMHO, the Order should've been. (And, as we see years later, an example Obi-Wan eventually achieves - although, as BobaMatt notes, Obi-Wan's training served him well in dealing with the tragedy of Satine's death.)

Also, to quote Matt: Furthermore, even if we accept that the Jedi are disconnected as a whole, that's evidence that they're doing it wrong and are misguided, not that following the light side of the Force is misguided or insufficient.

*nods again* On this, we can agree. Whether it's politics, wartime distractions from monitoring proper training safeguards, etc., the prequel Order lost its way - not in its intent, but being able to ensure that the ends were serving proper means.

Which is tragic, because the Order - at least, from the volumes of Legends materials set before TPM - was not slacking off on peacekeeping. Yinchorr, the Stark Hyperspace War, and so on all indicate that the Jedi were attempting to do what they should've been - preventing things from boiling over.

We know what happens when you're totally in tune with the light: you "become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."

I think I finally figured out what I wasn't putting my finger on before - it's not light-sidedness that's blinding the Order (and, possibly, post-TUF Luke, but let's not open a can of worms).

It's excessive staring into the Unifying Force.

Yoda, at least, understands this - but I suspect the majority of the other ranking Masters overrelied on precognition, either that or there was some prequel equivalent to the Jedi Council of Seers that the post-FOTJ NJO instituted (as mentioned by Kol Skywalker in Legacy).

Visions as warnings are all well and good; FACPOV, the essence of lightsaber fighting - microprecognition through relying on the Force to guide lightsaber moves - is a protracted, heightened state of alertness (as Dawud mentions, it's mindfulness, taken to an extreme). And in the moment, that works.

As a (sole) roadmap of the future? Nope. Yoda had it right all along. He warned Anakin as much, and we all know how that ended up.

Balance isn't just about acknowledging one's inner darkness and refusing to give in to it (a critical lesson, undoubtedly); it's also about living in the moment and balancing that with healthy preparation for the future.

Save money. Create a college fund. Just make sure to smell the flowers.

As for the question of whether Jedi can have families and still be Jedi - I'm more of two minds about that, now.

It'd be fallacious to deny that the Order did function as a (primarily) monastic body for thousands of years - and certainly, as Captain Peabody noted, discipline (and self-discipline) are not bad things. Force-users who can't control themselves are obviously very bad news.

Where I have an issue with how the prequel Jedi viewed having families is their seeming ... fear isn't quite the right word, IMHO, but stringency toward putting the Force and the Order first.

Sure, it's hard for Mom or Dad to go flying off on trade negotiations if little Jon has a shockball game, but I'd think the Order could set up child care or something (and would want to; we know there's no guarantee of passing on Force-sensitivity - SkySolos not withstanding - but keeping an eye on future Initiates born to existing Knights might be a good way to head off public criticism of severely-early recruitment).

Friendships outside the Order were fairly tolerated, it seems (I have a hard time seeing Yoda chewing Obi-Wan out for spending time with Dexter), while celibacy was (tacitly?) considered the norm, but not demanded.

So, is it the time demand of a family, or the concern over divided loyalties that got the prequel Masters' dander up?

Not to ignore the bantha in the room, of course. The attachment concern is obviously critical, but Ben Skywalker had a good point on the topic:

"That’s what attachment is, isn’t it? It’s not loving somebody. It’s not marrying somebody. It’s not having kids. It’s being where, if something goes wrong, there’s nothing left of you. It’s where if someone goes away, you start functioning like a droid with a restraining bolt installed.”

Once the wheels got rolling - not to ignore the fiascos like Desann, Brakiss, Kyp's atrocious start, and most pathetically, Jacen - Luke's Order seemed to eventually reach a point where things worked. My personal suspicion is that B. Skywalker learned from the past failures and managed to impart functionality to the NJO by the time of Kol and Nat.

In closing, my personal preference - and of course, this is IMHO - is that there could be a Jedi Order where Knights with families and Knights who choose monasticism can coexist.

 

I think with attachment there's also an issue of dynasty, and not wanting to favor certain bloodlines. That was a big thing in the Catholic Church.

But yeah, I don't think the Jedi view families themselves as evil, just not something Jedi should have. It's not that you miss the game, or need childcare, it's that you cling to and fear for your loved ones, you resent time away from them, you miss them and long for them. You maybe hold back for fear of not being able to come home. It's possible the Jedi developed different relationships to this tenet over time, but we know by the time of the prequels the Jedi Order involves vows of celibacy and poverty.

Something that I find a little odd is that the Jedi don't seem to have a confirmation ceremony, or like a rumspringa.

 

Which I maintain would have been better for all concerned.

Anakin was on the path to become a professional pod racer. He'd have bought his own freedom, eventually.

Palpatine was a race fan. He'd have scouted out Anakin in person eventually.

Anakin would have been Force-guided to crash straight into his seat.

Balance restored, Darth Vader averted.

Qui-Gon Jinn is a presumptuous ****.

 

Middle path, or as it is termed in Islam "the straight path."

Absolutely agree.

It's not that one's own dark side *is* evil, even. You need that aspect, it drives you for your survival. Without it, you wouldnt have the desire to eat or even to stand against injustice. You have to walk the path of moderation with that aspect of the self, however. Learn the proper measure for your anger. Does it rule you, or do you rule it tempered with courage? Does your attraction to pleasure rule you, or do you rule it and exercise moderation in consumption?

The aspect of the self driven by desire is called an-nafs in Islam, and when it rules, when your desires rule you and drive you beyond moderation it is called an-nafs al-ammarah bil-su, the self/soul that commands to evil. When it recognizes its sin and repents it is called the blaming self/soul, an-nafs al-luwwama. Finally, the traquil soul or self at peace, an-nafs al-mutma'innah, when the Sufi has tamed his desire and put it at the service of his higher self, the inner Divine Guide.

There is, of course, far more detail but the basic gist is "the middle path." A path of moderation, where one tames one's ego, his desire for the world, but is not excessive in renunciation. Ascetic practices arent the point, and are used only for the purpose of taming the inner beast.

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"Excessive renunciation" is an interesting concept, because I think it's what a lot of people mean by "too lightsided" when Jedi do bad things in the name of good. In actuality, that's the dark side again.

 

It's balance and imbalance.

 

The Death Star beams were green. Did the FO bleed the planet's kyber crystals when creating Starkiller Base?

Also: I continue to be intrigued by the relationship between the Guardians and Disciples of the Whills and the Jedi. In the Star Wars comic arc Ashes of Jedha, the Rebels help out a Disciple who seems to thrilled that Luke has a lightsaber and might be a Jedi. They seem to absolutely revere the Jedi.

 

In terms of evaluating the Jedi, I do enjoy both the deconstruction and reconstruction of the notion of what is to be a Jedi and Sith as seen in KOTOR: Sith Lords. It's my favorite Star Wars game for a reason.

A: Does the existence of the Jedi or Sith really matter all that much? We, the audience, know, but the vast majority of people in the galaxy never met a Jedi. And Sith are ultimately just Tyrants, no different than any others.
B: Were the Jedi ultimately successful in their role? It's arguable. They kept the peace for many generations, yet they seem incapable of policing their own, or in dealing with crisis' beyond the scope of their own teachings. Good intentions matter only so far. If the Jedi way is so perfect, why are nearly all Sith fallen Jedi? A 1% failure rate is unacceptable for the U.S. postal system, I don't see why space wizards should be held to a lesser standard. I won't even bring up the failure of the PT Jedi in dealing with Sidious.
C: Is life with the force inherently better or worse? KOTOR digs into this deeply. One can achieve balance and peace with the force, or suffer endless because of it. The problem isn't the force, it's the people who use it.

There's a reason we love Luke, Obi-Wan, Qui-Gonn, Revan, the Exile and Quinlan Vos. They're Jedi who are rebels against dogma for dogma's sake. They don't shut out the universe behind an excuse of detachment. They feel the force, respect the force, but also are very human. They love, they care, they hope. They're not afraid, even if they make mistakes. Luke's belief in the goodness of his father leads him to reach out, as the force connects everyone. Even after Kreia's endless lecturing and cynicism about the Force, the Exile can still show compassion and a desire to save her.

I compare that with Mace, with Vrook or Atris. Jedi blinded by pride and believe in their own self importance and infallibility of their visions. The Jedi were in many ways their own worst enemy, unable to come to terms with why so many who follow their teachings inevitably fail.

Pretty much this, there's a great deal of danger in shutting out the world. Or in refusing to reform. And yes, Anakin is certainly at fault for his own fall, however a lack of foresight on the part of the Jedi didn't exactly help.

It's the closest example I can think of, but even Christianity has gone through many periods of revival and change. And even now, it is not a monolithic block of dogma, there are many different interpretations of key teachings, and my ultimate hope is that the Jedi would reform, not disappear.

 

I have a feeling once 8 comes out that this thread will need to be split into 2, dealing with how Legends Luke trained and changed his Jedi from the old order and how canon Luke did things. They may end up being very different.

 

Why would that require two threads

 

I doubt it'll need to split.

But again: the Jedi don't shut the world out. I don't think getting married is the only way to experience the world. They're actively working in the world all the time - for the most part the stories we have focus only on the Clone War, and even then mostly on Jedi who serve on the High Council.

Furthermore, we don't know much about their relationship to reform and dissent but, interestingly, we do get a hint of their penchant for self reflection in a cut scene from Attack of the Clones. We know that by the time of Attack of the Clones, only twenty Jedi Masters - in the course of the "thousand generation" history of the Jedi - had renounced the Order and left. We know this because the Jedi built beautiful busts of them and displayed them prominently in their library.

I think you're right, masterskywalker, in that a lot of religious orders undergo different incarnations with different rules over time, but I suspect many teachings will remain the same for the Jedi. For example, even if the vows of chastity and poverty are done away with, I'd be very surprised if the teachings on detachment were suddenly considered useless.

 

I also recognize the extreme examples of poor, ostensibly lightside Jedi are rare, but that the ongoing cycle of the Jedi dealing with repeated schisms in their order is a symptom of a deeper flaw.

The galaxy is better off having the Jedi around, but that shouldn't mean they should be immune to proper criticism. I.e., the Jedi becoming an arm of the Republic government in all but name as one example.

 

What do you mean with "ostensibly lightside Jedi"? Just so we are on the same page

 

Although 8 isn't out yet, the speculation so far is that the canon NJO stayed at the temple, did monkly type things, tai chi Force exercises etc. Whatever it was, they weren't out and about to the point they were widely known--the Bloodline novel definitely implies this. Another big hint so far is that destroying the temple automatically equates to destroying Luke's Jedi--that's only possible if they were all in the temple.

The Legends New Jedi Order--take the Jedi Academy PC game. Luke outright tells the player that he teaches "learning by doing". Jaden and Kyle are always out and about the galaxy on missions. Desann's attempt to "pull a Kylo" failed because Luke's Jedi were active and on the move.

 

Do they deal with repeated schisms?

Absolutely!

 

Eh, what. Can you take that agian, I think I don't follow your logic.

You are selling a thousend years of peace a a bit short

Are we talking about Canon or Legend here?

 

I'm not going to mention Jedi like the ones in CW who were just Jedi who went bad like Bariss or Krell, or even Quinlan in the new canon.

Jedi like Atris, stubborn and convinced she was the destined savior of the Jedi,
Vrook, who never fell to the darkside, but ultimately was just a blind, stubborn fool,
Mace, who along with Yoda allowed the Jedi to be co-opted by an outside power. Not including mistakes such as Ahsoka, although that was a symptom of the problem (Oh see, OUR judgement wasn't wrong, it was just the force testing you!),
Yoda who was correct in claiming that the Jedi ultimately failed to prevent the return of the Sith, even after learning the truth.
More so, the general reaction of the Jedi TO Yoda when he claimed to see Qui-Gonn after becoming one with the force. Disbelief and distrust.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

The war of Exar Kun, the Jedi Civil War, the TOR era, consist of countless examples of Jedi fracturing and being unable to cope with the challenges of galactic peacekeeping. They are nearly always overwhelmed, with hordes of their students abandoning their schools. The problem was less prevalent during the Clone Wars, but was still a major factor in the fall of the Jedi.