Lit "Unlearn what you have learned" - The Jedi Thread

Even if Kylo wiggled out of any Hosnian charges, he still needs to answer for killing the Jedi academy and that village Rey saw in her vision. And as already mentioned, wiping out the Jakku village.

Going by his costume, I'm fairly certain it's Darth Revan that Kylo idolizes, not Exar Kun.

 

I go to work for a few hours and everyone gets delusions of grandeur.

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well so one day George Lucas decided to sell his IP to Disney, which opened the door to super expensive fanfilms with massive audiences, and then...

edit: also

gahhh what is this superstitious pagan nonsense

 

A wider religion devoted to the Force was always implicit in ANH. Legends consistently dropped the ball in this regard, making religions either myth and legend or solely the province of Force-sensitives.

The Clone Wars was already expanding the Force beyond just the Jedi well before Disney bought LFL. Beyond overt Force-users like the Nightsisters, we had that Force religion on that world led by Jar Jar's girlfriend. The people Mother Talzin was stealing essence from.

Considering religious followings tended to crop up around figures that reportedly did miracles, or taught people in such profound ways that their mere presence was transformative, and then generations there after people follow those figures' teachings by word of mouth because of faith.... it makes sense that Jedi would inspire a religious following or act as proof of the Force even for those who never saw or met one.

Moreover, if Canon keeps the same basic concept the Legends did, the origins of the Jedi are from a pre-existing religion or ecumenical circle(similar to the collection of the Orange Catholic Bible in Dune). People of various faiths come together, recognize some perennial transcendence underlying their various beliefs, they call it the Force and eventually a kind of syncretic faith emerges. Some people seem to have a greater ability to perceive the Force than others, and maybe they form a subset of that faith. Not unlike Sufi Orders in Islam. Islam is a big tent, not everyone however is equipped with the inner drive for the rigors of Sufi asceticism or even the inner need to know God. Or Catholic priesthood and monasticism. It's often referred to as a calling. Most dont receive that calling.

In Star Wars, the calling is accompanied by higher than average midi-chlorian counts and miraculous abilities.

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I like this idea better than mine.

 

I'm just happy Force Freeze/Stasis is Canon. I love that ability in KOTOR.

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I think Its implied that the Bendu came before the Jedi and the Sith. He's not a jedi because he's in the middle - he's both light side and dark side, but at the same time he's neither.
Ahsoka is still considered a jedi by the galaxy at large minus the Jedi Order. If someone uses the force and brandish lightsabers, the average mook in the GFFA will call that person a jedi.
Force Ghosts are non corporeal manifestations of the force conjured by those who have passed on but maintained their individual consciousness. Sith cannot achieve such a state because they are obsessed with achieving grandeur and don't believe in an afterlife.
I think the Jedi are dogmatic in that they believe they are the only organization which should control the force and how it is understood. They allow lesser traditions to practice so long as they do not contradict the jedi's dogma. They look down upon magic, for example. Going backwards on the teachings of the jedi will have you ostracized and possibly cast aside.
Redemption from the dark side isn't clear cut in canon.There's Quinlan Vos and Anakin, and the order wasn't around for Anakin's redemption. For the Jedi it seems you have to do something beneficial for the Jedi Order and repent the dark side, not necessarily do something which completely negates your past wrong doings.
As for attachment, it is forbidden by the Jedi. Because of this, strong emotions and fixing your compassion towards a single item are not encouraged. However, as Obi Wan points out, it's not wrong to feel a certain way towards something/one if it's natural. But jedi have to set aside those feelings for their devotion to the order.

 

I read Ahsoka as a kind of ronin. She's a Jedi in every way that truly matters, and I believe Yoda sees her as such in Rebels even if she doesn't.

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When Mortis first aired, I thought that Father was the Shaman of the Whills, but after seeing the episodes that revolve around Force Ghosting and Filoni saying that the Priestesses were a single being in life, I think that the Priestesses were the Shaman of the Whills in life.

 

Dawud786 - Force religions are fine-- and there were plenty of them in the old (pre-The Clone Wars!) canon, incidentally, but whatever. The Jedi as a religion is what I'm scoffing at. They're like, anti-religion. If someone tried to start a religion with Jedi as prophets or clergy or whatever, they'd do whatever they could to stomp it out. Which granted would likely amount to, like, grimacing and wrinkling their noses and doing their level best to pretend it didn't exist, but yeah.

(this is actually what I assumed was going on with the whole church of the Force/Jedha business in Rogue One and was why I found the movie pretty inoffensive and even borderline enjoyable as fanfilms go but it seems I was mistaken? If so ew ew ew gross and etc)

 

Im all for a more diverse Jedi order compared to the PT jedi, but I don't see it happening post-RoTJ. That ship likely sailed with the destruction of Lukes Academy. Disney could have used the academy to bring about jedi differences and dioluge about it, but they wanted to pull another "order 66".

For now post-TFA, diversity amongest jedi beliefs can maybe be seen through Luke and Rey. Possibly Ben will return to the light and they could put him on a different path then jedi of the past.

I also don't believe Disney is in any hurry to recreate a decant sized order after ST is done. They may want to maintain the focus on Rey and her journeys after ST, if Luke is still alive after Episode 9, focus on their relationship instead of bringing in more students. Or have her become knighted and acquire her own apprentice. Keep the focus on a small amount.

I say this because we know the next trilogy isn't about the Skywalkers and their legacy. Since Jedi are probably going to be the focus in the new trilogy, films about ancient jedi is a reasonable conclusion. Giving Disney the opportunity of returning to the screen a very large jedi order while not giving that task to Rey just yet.

So if we ever did see a diverse jedi order in the future, well the ancient past is a more likely stage then the post-ST world. Later we can learn how the Jedi order became in its "stale" state during the 1000yrs preceding TPM after the Sith were "defeated", and a new republic came to be.

What the Jedi order experiences in early conflicts, the constant battle with the Sith, and relationship with the earliest (and future) Old Republic can play a role in giving us Jedi who disagree with one another.

You could have a jedi faction that stays away from playing politics with the early Old Republic, feeling joining an alliance with them is not the correct path. The topic of the scale of pacifism can lead to opposing views, some Jedi preferring stronger pacifism to others.

Because of the many wars with the Sith, a warrior focused jedi ideology can emerge. More focused on fighting then your regular jedi. These are the types to commit first strikes against the sith, often wearing armor in battle. Combined with crossgard sabers really will create the knightly look. This variant of Jedi could have played a role in the scourge of malachor.

I do agree that various views on romance should be introduced. I want to see a group of Jedi have families and pass on their teaching to their kids. While other groups tend to take their recruits from other sources instead of jedi families.


Adding diversity to an ancient Jedi order would sure give us some realism to these religious beliefs. After all, within our own world religions tend to have disagreements within their membership. A lot of common ground, but still diversity in ideology.

 

I think the pre-prequel continuity had Force religions in the whole "blind men and an elephant" sense where we're supposed to laugh at how they're dumb dumbs that misinterpret the Force. Of which the Jedi understood in its entirety!

And then the prequels and NJO happened..

 

Same reason the American people trusted FDR's word and didn't trust Hitler's word.

 

Stang, the conclusion of the NJO was basically that. Between Vergere, Jacen and Luke *those* Jedi are supposed to have better understanding than anyone, and the Yuuzhan Vong are dum-dums that really really *really* misunderstood the Force.

On the one hand, it suggests a kind of Perennialism... while, on the other, the antagonists were so far off base that they needed Jedi and a Force planet to teach them the right way.

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I feel like it's an interesting topic. The nascent EU sort of went off on this tangent where it enshrined Yoda's quotes from TESB in this Jedi bible, and seeking deeper understanding was the dark side (see: Kun, Exar).

There's more of a Lord of the Rings approach to the whole thing that I think that started with West End Games, but that approach was wholly ill-equipped to deal with the prequels in which Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan would have turned to the dark side before they even got off the Lucrehulk in Episode I.

Vergere and Jacen both had a Socratic wisdom to them, and I'd even suggest that Vergere exists as a reaction to the WEG system and its influence on the New Jedi Order leading into the eponymous series to explain the incongruity between that system and the prequel Jedi.

Vergere is a prequel Jedi responding to Jacen as a West End Games' roleplayer saying that using Force push nets him a dark side point.

 

Interesting way of putting it.

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Yes, pacifism in general could definitely be a 4th point of diversity among different Jedi temples.

Also, whether they're flexible and allow different careers or not (Jedi teachers, Jedi nurses, Jedi engineers, etc.) could be another 5th point of diversity.

 

Interesting! I didn't remember that. Does Tarkin say why? It's possible this is specifically a Palpatiney thing.

This is why I presume the Jedi are a remnant of a larger religion that's mostly dead, and which the Church of the Force may be a revival/replacement for.

I've always wished the story group were less staunch about this in Legends. I think it's okay for the Imperial Knights to have been called Jedi, as they originally were. I think it's okay for Vergere to have been largely wrong without being a Sith. It makes sense to me that there would be splinters.

The mention of different temples is really interesting - I wonder how active other temples were during the Clone Wars. I was definitely heartened by the existence of other major temples because Coruscant doesn't make sense as the seat of the Order.

I'd be surprised if they represent splinter factions, but I imagine the temple at Lothal and the temple on Devaron must have had vastly different cultures.

 

In my point of view....yes.

Canon has shown a Jedi can follow a path that traditional jedi of the PT didn't, while remaining Jedi. Kanan is a good example of this. Obvious he is in a relationship with Hera, but still a Jedi.

It feels like the main reason Ahsoka was made to not identify as a Jedi anymore so Filoni and co could justify keeping her alive, possibly into OT period while taking Yoda's line to Luke as still technically correct.

Ahsoka not being a jedi would have been better if she was presented as giving up the fight against the Empire, not caring about following the light side, not even wielding sabers anymore. Then later show her regain her faith in the "force" and that of the jedi path, before saving lives and being killed by vader.

Instead we introduced to her as already being "Protestant" Jedi who doesn't like being called a jedi.

 

I do think different Temples with different cultures and elements of ritual is a worthy concept. I dont know how you get there in the post-ROTJ setting, though. We are talking something that would naturally emerge over centuries and millenia, not within the lifetime of a single Jedi Master.

For example, Sufi Orders in Turkey are quite different from those in Persian, Indian, and African lands. Let alone th3 Bektashis of Albania. That said, they share just as much if not more. I could see that having once been the case for the Jedi. Legends touched on the idea, but seemed to limit it to the Corellian Jedi.

I was thinking a bit earlier about the chicken-egg scenario currently regarding the Jedi Order and Jedha and the Guardians and Disciples of the Whills. I can conceive of an origin for the Jedi Knights that occurs on Jedha. Perhaps "Jedi" was once how all people from Jedha were known, kind of like an Iraqi is from Iraq. From the religous mileu of that moon a group of warrior monks emerged, they were the Knights of the Whills or something. The galaxy called them Jedi Knights. Eventually the Knights move offworld, and settle their first temple on Ahch-to.


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I might have misremembered and Tarkin may not have implied Jedi helped their own in the past. However, he definitely said that Ahsoka will be tried by Republic military because clones and military personnel were killed.

 

I actually don't dislike what they've done with Ahsoka, I just wish it got a little more exploration. I'd like to not assume bad faith on the part of the creators, particularly because even if it was a decision made thoughtlessly and cynically it's part of canon for the story to contend with. We don't know why Ahsoka doesn't call herself a Jedi anymore, her quitting aside.

Either way it seems possible this is something that happened less because of legal precedent and more because Palpatine wanted it to - that, in fact, this was a sign of the ways in which Palpatine sought to change the relationship between the Republic and the Jedi in the closing years of the war.

 

It's really an interesting thing to examine in a meta sense, but I wonder if it's even relevant to talk about now. When all we had was the original trilogy, we don't have much to go off on in terms of what the Jedi are. Luke's training is evidently geared toward fulfilling a singular purpose in wiping out the Sith, with what comes after being a secondary concern, but the EU didn't really know what came after, and so it was scattershot. The NJO was, if its name is any indication, an attempt to reconcile these varying interpretations together along with that of the prequels, in which the Force was ironically depicted as being more mystical (regardless of fan focus on midi-chlorians).

But with The Clone Wars and Star Wars Rebels, I think everyone realizes the Force is much more mystical than popularly depicted coming out of the OT, even if they don't realize these ideas originated with Episode I, or I'd argue within the OT itself (see: Luke's failure at the cave). So I wonder if West End Games' depiction is somewhat made irrelevant now since I don't think many people are left that cling to that take, because it's pretty darn hard to do so with all the content we've gotten over the past two decades.

I like this better though! Think about the depth that goes into something like using the Force offensively results in a dark side point, vis-a-vis a single scene in Episode II where Anakin says attachment is forbidden, and the psychological weight to that rule. And I don't just mean the reasoning behind it, but the fact that fans debate whether it's even correct.

 

Well, interesringly, GL's vision for Force-use around ESB *did* involve the notion that using the Force to push or pull etc meant using the dark side. I'll have to find time to dig up the relevant bits in The Annotated Screenplays, but there's at least some basis for that WEG mechanic at some point in time. Clearly wasnt even really in play when ESB was filmed.

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The WEG way, though, has a basis in George Lucas' original conception of how it would work, which was that using the Force at all was a little bit dark sided, the idea being that manipulating the energy of the Force to achieve an end was always somewhat harmful. Some of this remains in Legends, where I believe it was Mara in the NJO would said that she works out to remain in peak physical condition because relying on the Force to do things all the time was a bad path to go down. In the macro, this makes a lot of sense to me, but one has to imagine the Jedi have ways of dealing with that and maintaining balance.