Lit "Unlearn what you have learned" - The Jedi Thread

Wellllllllllllllllll I dunno. I think the difficulty and impracticality of doing what Kanan's doing is why the Jedi forbid relationships, but I think the principle looks more like what Kanan's doing.

 

I agree. I think Kanan had been ignoring that aspect of the Jedi Order. It took those wolves saying his original name, "Dume" to remind him that what he was doing was against the principles of his Order.

 

Was thinking about these images today, and the significance of them being in multiple Jedi Temples. The Jedi are organized not as a "light side" order the Manichean sense, where they are sticking to one side of the Force. Neither are they "grey" as many people seem to wish. That you can tap into the nasty abilities that the Sith have used by, essentially, rending the very fabric of life itself while simultaneously touching the Force in the way that holistically connects you to all.

Whatever Jedi built these more ancient temples and knew of the Ones of Mortis had an ideal in mind for themselves, and didnt reject the dark side as part and parcel of the Whole of the Force. They had to have seen the Father as representing the wisdom to recognize balance.

From these murals, to the Mortis arc to the Yoda arc, and of course the films themselves, i think we are being shown that the Force itself "prefers" the Open Palm of Compassion while also using the Clenched Fist of Severity when necessary. In nature, this is just the natural cycle of life death and rebirth. In the moral continuum of sentient beings, balance means people showing a preference for the Open Palm and knowing when the Clenched Fist is called for and to what degree. Were the Jedi a pacific order, devoted solely to the Open Palm they would not at all be a martial order. Rather, they are the upturned palm of the Father, knowing(ideally) when to use the fist to establish justice but always done so compassionately. Not allowing themselves to see the fist as the first and preferred option.

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That's a good way to put it.

Could we say that Luke in TLJ is too imbalanced towards the light/pacifism/nonintervention, like the Fallanasi and presumably those in DOTJ sentenced to the other moon Ashla?

 

No, he was just apathic and depressed

 

Yeah, this. He had cut himself off from the Force - he didn't think nonintervention was an ideal philosophical standpoint, he felt like the Jedi sucked and he sucked and people were misguided and wasting their time with him.

I also think the Jedi wouldn't look down on someone who dedicates themselves to pacifism, but that's just not what the Jedi are.

 

I got that impression.

 

Went to meditation today and was struck again by the emphasis on feeling emotions and acknowledging the but letting them pass rather than clinging to them, and on not defining yourself by any one state you find yourself in.

The idea that Jedi don't feel is demonstrably wrong just by watching the media or reading stories - what they do instead is refuse to dwell.

 

I do think there's an element of denialism in the Jedi as of the PT. Especially after the Yoda arc in TCW. They are im denial about their own shadows to some extent, and to what degree they are feeding the darkness by acting as generals. But in principal, i agree. The Jedi teaching is not "dont feel angry" but "dont dwell on your anger, and definitely dont lash out in anger."

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Right - a guy like Yoda had assumed he had to stop striving.

 

Agreed. I did not fully understand that till I read Shatterpoint and Dark rendezvous.

 

Is their any canon encyclopedia source mentioning Plo Koons creative uses of the Force? Creating fog, freezing rivers and conjuring whirlwinds That stuff.

 

Going forward, I'm thinking how the Jedi will be defined is entirely based on whatever is in those books Rey took, and Luke's 2 (or 3) lessons. Literally everything here in the past 30 pages could be stuff that was invented after the Prime Jedi wrote his books.

Unless we know what is in those books, we have no idea what future Rey-led Jedi will be like. This gives the writers a blank slate to rewrite Jedi rules the way they see fit, and say that this was the original Prime Jedi's intentions.

 

Sooooooort of. Very loosely. It was an instinctive reaction not a diabolical plan. Lucien's plan was a murderous plot, and he managed to make Zayne his scapegoat. Luke's was basically going into fight or flight for a moment.

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Why wouldn't Luke continue to train her?

The whole point is learning from the mistakes. Luke is that link.

 

If Force ghosting is now just a "flesh wound" and you can appear anytime and anywhere you like to train someone... Aside from the fact that it undermines death in Star Wars and makes their world even less relatable to ours (note that to keep the tension in the PT no character is aware that there is an afterlife), i guess Snoke and Kylo REALLY messed up in trying to find and kill Luke. They should have left him on that island alive and limited in a mortal body.

What mistake does Rey need to learn from? How to keep your nerves calm and not ignite your lightsaber in an extremely stressful moment? Rebuild the Jedi Order? How not to run away when the galaxy needs you? Anyone could have told her this well before she met Luke.

 

You mean Obi-Wan and Yoda didn't mentor Luke after they died?

Luke has immense wisdom, wisdom that I think actually led to consider very different perspectives which is why he's struggling in TLJ. He has much to teach Rey.

 

Why assume that the Force doesnt will that spirit Luke guide Rey's training going forward?

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Luke might ghost train, but it moves away from the OT. When Luke told Yoda he can't die because he needs more training, Yoda didn't say I will train you after death.

 

No, training Luke after death was Obi-Wan's ghost's job.

 

Do we even know if these books are from around the same time? I mean one could be from the Ashla, the other could be from the Je'daii, and the last one could be from Odan Urr. Obviously those characters are not canon anymore, but you get what I'm saying; the Jedi shift so much over time that sometimes just on century can make them radically different.

I think Rey may use the books more as a basis for training than philosophy. I mean Yoda does say they are not page turners, I assume the point of them is more to understand the basics and get a good grasp of what the Jedi were at one point, and then fill in those gaps. Like to use Legends, it would be like looking at the Ashla and Je'daii to understand how this stuff came to be, then Odan in order to figure out more about the slightly more modern Jedi philosophy. Then from there she can start to study info on how the Jedi operated as an organization. Look at records from the Clone Wars, study up on Jedi mercy missions, uncover history of things like the Hundred Year Darkness.

I doubt Rey will try to duplicate the Jedi of those books exactly, I assume it's more of a starting place.

 

When Yoda said the books aren't page turners, and that there's nothing in them that Rey doesn't have, I thought of Tolstoy's story of The Three Hermits, which Wikipedia sums up thusly:

A bishop and several pilgrims are travelling on a fishing boat from Archangel to the Solovétsk Monastery. During the voyage, the bishop overhears a discussion about a remote island, nearby their course, where three old hermits live a spartan existence focused on seeking "salvation for their souls." Inquiring about the hermits, the bishop finds that several of the fishermen claim to have seen the hermits once.

The bishop then informs the captain that he wishes to visit the island. The captain seeks to dissuade him by saying, "the old men are not worth your pains. I have heard say that they are foolish old fellows, who understand nothing, and never speak a word." The bishop insists and the captain steers the ship toward the island. The bishop subsequently sets off in a rowboat to visit. He is met ashore by the three hermits.

The bishop informs the hermits that he has heard of them and of their search for salvation. He inquires how they are seeking salvation and serving God, but the hermits say they do not know how, only that they pray, simply: "Three are ye, three are we, have mercy upon us." Subsequently, the bishop acknowledges that they have a little knowledge but are ignorant of the true meaning of the doctrine and how to pray properly. He tells them that he will teach them "not a way of my own, but the way in which God in the Holy Scriptures has commanded all men to pray to Him" and proceeds to explain the doctrines of the incarnation and the Trinity. He attempts to teach them the Lord's Prayer, the "Our Father", but the simple hermits blunder and cannot remember the words. This compels the bishop to repeat the lesson late into the night. After he is satisfied that they have memorized the prayer, the Bishop departs from the island leaving the hermits with a firm instruction to pray as he has taught them. The bishop then returns to the fisherman's vessel anchored offshore in the rowboat and continues his voyage.

While on board, the bishop notices that their vessel is being followed. At first he thinks a boat is behind them but he soon realizes that the three hermits are running across the surface of the water "as though it were dry land." The hermits catch up to the vessel as the captain stops the boat, and inform the bishop, "We have forgotten your teaching, servant of God. As long as we kept repeating it we remembered, but when we stopped saying it for a time, a word dropped out, and now it has all gone to pieces. We can remember nothing of it. Teach us again." The bishop is humbled and replies to the hermits, "Your own prayer will reach the Lord, men of God. It is not for me to teach you. Pray for us sinners." After this the hermits turn around and walked back to their island.
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The hermits lack formal doctrine, but their faith is fervent and their desire to do good is earnest. The rest is academic.

 

That's a really good way to put it.

 

I seem to remember Yoda schooling Luke in TLJ.

 

What do you all think of the deleted "third lesson" scene?

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