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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit "Unlearn what you have learned" - The Jedi Thread

Discussion in 'Literature' started by BobaMatt, Nov 27, 2017.

  1. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

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    Jan 23, 2011
    It's also worth noting the 'faith' Luke has in the Force to replace him. He's certain the light doesn't die with him and it's better for him to not be it's vessel.
     
  2. sidv88

    sidv88 Force Ghost star 5

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    Aug 22, 2005
    Where does this faith stem from though? Even if the Force balances itself out, there could be a good 20 years of darkness before that happens, just like with the Empire. Even if Rey is a chosen one, she could be another Anakin and end up letting Kylo rule the galaxy for 20 years before she gets around to her "destiny".

    This faith feels unwarranted. The Force let tons of people die and be enslaved before Anakin got around to killing Palpatine. If that's how the Force works, a lot of people in the galaxy will probably say it's best not to trust the Force at all.
     
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  3. Vialco

    Vialco Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 6, 2007
    I mean, if you mean Luke achieved a moral victory, then yes, he won. His moral victory also did him absolutely no good when Palpatine started electrocuting him. If Vader hadn't intervened at that last moment, Luke's moral victory would have meant nothing. Palpatine would have killed him and then left the Death Star and continued to rule the Empire.

    I defined "defeating" as actually overcoming and conquering someone, in a real sense of the word. Defeating someone in a verbal or moral contest means very little when they can snap their fingers and end your life. For example, in their phantom duel on Crait, Luke gets the final word in with Kylo...and promptly collapses on his island and dies. While Kylo's free to keep walking around and ruling the Galaxy.
     
  4. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    Can you expand on what you mean? Becouse I'm not certain on what you are saying[/QUOTE]
    Luke finds himself unable to turn his back on the Jedi, but he doesn't want any more of them because he thinks they're useless.
    If Vader hadn't intervened, Luke wouldn't have won the moral victory. The conflict hanging over that scene is, "Does Palpatine rule everyone in this room or is Luke right about Vader?"
    Right, but so do I.
    That's not in any way how the movie presents what happens there, in much the same way as ANH doesn't count Obi-Wan's death as a defeat. Even better: I have to imagine Kylo knows what happened to his namesake, and understands the significance. Luke's victory isn't getting the final word, it's in sacrificing himself so the resistance can escape, reigniting the spark of his own legend, and ensuring Rey carries on his legacy.

    Is Kylo vanquished? Not yet. Did he very much lose at Crait? Absolutely.
    You're right. The Force is bad, the heroes are wrong, and Star Wars is bad.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2018
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  5. sidv88

    sidv88 Force Ghost star 5

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    Aug 22, 2005
    "This is a dangerous time for you, when you will be tempted by the dark side of the Force" --Obi-Wan Kenobi, ESB

    Basically Luke's inspiration is that a half-trained girl with some books is going to train a bunch of Jedi to take on Kylo. If I were Kylo, this would just be easy recruits for my cause. Remember, Kylo converted a bunch of Luke's Jedi into Knights of Ren (either by torture or they joined willingly). How is Rey going to know Broomboy or whoever won't feel the call of the dark side?

    So they won't follow Kylo because he was "humiliated"? People follow debunked leaders in the real world all the time. Kylo has the power, and that's very attractive. Or Kylo might just point a saber at Broomboy and say "Join me or die". It seemed to work well in the temple massacre.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2018
  6. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    There's no indication in the movie that this is how Luke wants the next movie to play out, or that he has a particular hope in mind at all.
     
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  7. sidv88

    sidv88 Force Ghost star 5

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    Aug 22, 2005
    Good point. It actually underscores that Luke doesn't actually have a plan other than letting the Resistance survive which... while sad and heroic, isn't really inspiring honestly.
     
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  8. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Chosen One star 5

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    Dec 28, 2006
    Re: Luke

    I wonder if everyone that dislikes Luke's perspective in the ST has ever read Dune. Paul Muad'dhib Atreides is arguably one of the best sci-fi heroes ever written. He overcomes so much at a young age to lead a revolution that spreads across the universe. And yet, when he sees what he has wrought, he disappears into the desert only to emerge later as a blind preacher denouncing himself and his empire.

    Old Luke has always had more than a bit of Muah'dhib in him, and he takes on Maud'dhib's Preacher persona a bit here. My initial reaction was a mix of being amused by this turn and "not my Luke." Nevertheless, *my* Luke, Legends Luke, similarly acted less than ideally in the face of the Yuuzhan Vong invasion. My Luke preferred a more deliberative standing than action when he was of similar age, and considerably more head-on experience fighting darksiders and Imperial die hards. He even actively discouraged his students that were more proactive, like he was as a Rebel.

    It doesnt seem wildly out of character to me, and it certainly doesnt seem inconsistent. Life experience, age, and spiritual/emotional trauma changes you. Scars you. Luke bought into his own legend until he irrationally lit his saber over Ben's sleeping form. That he could do that, and that the reaction to him doing it was so off the charts made, devastated him. Broke something inside him. That is so *very* human. And so relatable, to me.

    He is not the pristine heroic archetype here. That was who he was in ANH. A cipher for all that was good and true. ESB and ROTJ showed us that he isnt flawless, he isnt pure, and that he could potentially become what Vader was. TFA and TLJ show us how a man that had risen so high, overcome so much, still carries flaws within and when those flaws result in something so terrible... can break him.

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  9. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

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    Oct 13, 2003
    Paul Atreides sponsored a jihad that led to the deaths of 40 billion people, or something like that. Not really comparable situations.
     
  10. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    Luke failed to prevent this from happening, and may have made it possible.

    [​IMG]

    Granted, he didn't know about Starkiller Base or that these worlds would be destroyed back when he went into hiding, but he knew what he'd unleashed and what it could do.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2018
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  11. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

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    Jan 23, 2011
    We really can't blame Luke for Starkiller. Considering it would have been built without Kylo I don't see how he is any more responsible than.... well everyone else who didn't build it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2018
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  12. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Chosen One star 5

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    Dec 28, 2006
    I'm not saying they are, only that the characters have similar thinking about themselves.

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  13. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    @DarthPhilosopher Depends how literal you want to be. I don't think Luke should blame himself for the First Order's ascendancy, either, but I absolutely think Luke blames Luke.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2018
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  14. Vialco

    Vialco Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 6, 2007
    While I'm all for blaming Luke for things he's actually done, I don't think you can attribute the creation and use of the Starkiller to Kylo. That whole superweapon was Hux's brainchild.
     
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  15. sidv88

    sidv88 Force Ghost star 5

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    Aug 22, 2005
    Luke blames himself for Kylo. The FO could have risen without Kylo.

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  16. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

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    Jan 23, 2011
    Well definitely, I see what you mean.

    But I don't think it should be taken as anything more than from someone who blames himself way too much. I'm guessing he also blames himself for not being able to stop Snoke as well.

    Luke is basically Superman worried that he can't save everyone.
     
  17. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    And do you think Luke thinks the First Order would have gotten that far if he'd done a better job? After all...
    ...Snoke wants a Vader really bad. Kylo's first act as Snoke's Vader is to slaughter all the Jedi that wouldn't join him. Snoke proceeds to want to kill Luke and Rey, and to want to make Kylo into a better Vader. The FO seems pretty sure they couldn't have risen without Kylo, and certainly not with Luke's Jedi out there. It's true that Luke blames himself for Kylo, but in the large sense he seems to blame himself for being another example of the Jedi getting wiped out by their own corrupted students, and failing to stop the darkness.
    Absolutely! I think it's super realistic, and in keeping with what we expect from heroes.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2018
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  18. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

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    Jan 23, 2011
    Yeah Luke's situation is a result of empathy (mixed with an excessive sense of responsibility) not apathy.
     
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  19. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 11, 2014
    Luke finds himself unable to turn his back on the Jedi, but he doesn't want any more of them because he thinks they're useless.
    If Vader hadn't intervened, Luke wouldn't have won the moral victory. The conflict hanging over that scene is, "Does Palpatine rule everyone in this room or is Luke right about Vader?"
    Right, but so do I.
    That's not in any way how the movie presents what happens there, in much the same way as ANH doesn't count Obi-Wan's death as a defeat. Even better: I have to imagine Kylo knows what happened to his namesake, and understands the significance. Luke's victory isn't getting the final word, it's in sacrificing himself so the resistance can escape, reigniting the spark of his own legend, and ensuring Rey carries on his legacy.

    Is Kylo vanquished? Not yet. Did he very much lose at Crait? Absolutely.
    You're right. The Force is bad, the heroes are wrong, and Star Wars is bad.[/QUOTE]

    The problem with what the movie tells us imo, is that I don't find it believable or earned at all. It feels crowbarred in there, but doesn't hold up to even the most basic of scrutiny. And it in no way makes up for his complete character evisceration beforehand imo.

    Rian can tell us whatever he wants, doesn't mean that we have to buy it (although if you do, that's perfectly fine of course), nor find it to be GOOD!!
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2018
  20. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

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    Jan 23, 2011
    Almost like he's conflicted.
     
  21. sidv88

    sidv88 Force Ghost star 5

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    Aug 22, 2005
    Honestly we can have conflicted heroes who still do something. All of Stan Lee's heroes and the Marvel heroes of the Silver Age and onwards were conflicted (that's how Stan Lee, Jack Kirby and the Marvel Universe became famous, because they brought in conflicted heroes), but we don't see the X-Men hiding when the Sentinels are rounding up mutants.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2018
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  22. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

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    Jan 23, 2011
    Because Professor Xavier can't cause more mutants to rise by removing himself.
     
  23. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

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    Dec 16, 2012
    Another reading is that Luke do blaming himself for his weakness but that he uses his failure with Ben and the old Jedi's failure to stop Vader as an excuse for not acting since this "proves" that there is just something wrong with the Jedi's teaching so Luke is "justified" in not geting involved and doing nothing.
     
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  24. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

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    Jan 23, 2011
    Well yeah that is what he thinks, but he isn't doing nothing. He is proactively removing himself to cause another to rise.
     
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  25. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    In what ways does it fall apart under scrutiny?