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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit "Unlearn what you have learned" - The Jedi Thread

Discussion in 'Literature' started by BobaMatt, Nov 27, 2017.

  1. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2012
    That's called proactively doing nothing. :p

    And in this kind of reading he's claim that he is "proactively removing himself to cause another to rise" is bantha poodoo that he tells himself, and other, to justify that he is unwilling to get involved again.

    Now, this reading is rather negative against Luke and I'm actually disappointed that I sympathise with it.
     
  2. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Yet it caused Rey to rise.

    He wants to get involved. He just don't think it's the right thing for everyone.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2018
  3. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    In the TLJ novelization, there's a beautiful description from Leia's point of view, as she's drifting through space, of what the experience of using the Force is like. I don't think we've ever gotten anything quite like it.
    Oh! And we've also got titles for two of the Jedi books:
    The Aionomica and the Rammaghon.
     
  4. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2006
    "Asked the Force." I like that a lot.

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  5. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    I'm attracted to the idea of the
    bridge, as it gives us a sort of idea of what sensing the Force is like, and a little bit of how it "works," at least in Leia's (and so presumably Luke, since he taught her's) case - it can be perceived as a set of overlapping energy fields that you interact with and move between. Oddly, this explains why in some of the novels Jedi couldn't interact with Yuuzhan Vong with the Force - there was no "bridge."

    Which reminds me, the novel gets into what Luke taught Leia a bit, too.
     
  6. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2006
    I really need to get it

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  7. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2006


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  8. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2018
  9. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
  10. MrDarth0

    MrDarth0 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2015
    Totally agree with Pablo's tweet there. Its also interesting there's no picture with Rey...
     
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  11. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2012
    Well she do seem to follow the videogame logic for how you get Force Powers...
     
  12. MrDarth0

    MrDarth0 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2015
    Yeah and I think Pablo realizes this as well. I wonder if he brings these issues up during work meetings when they're discussing upcoming movies...

    If we will have more Jedi in training in the upcoming movies outside the Saga movies, we'll see if Rey is some kind of anomaly that is just naturally gifted with the Force or if this is the direction Lucasfilm wants to go with, and all the new Jedi will progress very quickly in their use of the Force.
     
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  13. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2006
    I dont think Rey follows game logic at all. She's more of a believer than Luke was. She grew up with his legend, with legendary knowledge of the Force, not far from an enclave of the Church of the Force. She believes in it. Luke had never even heard of if until Obi-Wan mentioned it, and into ESB he still thinks of it materially enough that he thinks there's a difference between moving the ship and a stone or his saber.

    Rey isnt like that.

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  14. Vialco

    Vialco Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007
    Partially. But it also obeys your commands.
     
  15. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    Yeah Rey is absolutely not following video game skill tree logic. I think Pablo's tweet largely means that Jedi training is about focus, self control, and spiritual strength, and the rest is just party tricks. Rey can do some stuff (Rey doesn't actually do very much with the Force) but she doesn't have wisdom and centeredness...but Luke helps set her on that path. She's talented and she's not skeptical the way Luke always was - she knows the sorts of things she's supposed to be able to do as a Jedi, and it's kind of just a question of figuring out how to do them. Kylo even understands that by probing her mind and forcing her to resist, he's awakened her to her potential. There's a ticking clock on capturing her at Starkiller Base because, as he says, with every moment she's learning more about her abilities.

    It's worth remembering that Yoda's only words to Luke about "using" the Force is that literally anything is possible if you can get past your own lack of faith. We see Luke using his powers twice with Yoda, but in both instances Luke is learning focus and mindfulness under stress, not how to lift rocks. Luke arrives on Dagobah already knowing how to move things with his mind - he struggles on Hoth because he's panicking too.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2018
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  16. MrDarth0

    MrDarth0 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2015
    So why is Rey more powerful than most PT Jedi Knights after only couple of days with barely any Jedi training?

    The PT Jedi had both faith in the Force and lifetime of training (spiritual and physical), yet after TLJ I have the impression that most of them wouldn't stand a change against Rey in a fight. Even Yoda was exerting himself quite a bit when he was holding that falling debris in AOTC, yet Rey lifts a HUGE pile of rocks without breaking a sweat only few days after she discovered she can use the Force.

    The way they portrayed her in TFA and TLJ, she seems to have the potential to be the most powerful Jedi that ever lived if she devotes her life to training and studying the Force. I don't think even the Chosen One had such a potential.

    It makes me wonder if Rey is supposed to be special (maybe a new Chosen One?) or if its simply Lucasfilm's choice to portray the Jedi (and Force users in general) as much more powerful in their movies and TV shows than they were portrayed in GL's movies. Personally, I think its the latter and we should start getting used to the idea that OT Luke will look like a dufus compared to new post-Lucas era Force using characters. Ezra from Rebels is another good example of this.

    As the title of this thread says, we need to start unlearning what we expect Jedi to be able to do.
     
  17. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2006
    This little thing called the will of the Force.

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  18. MrDarth0

    MrDarth0 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2015
    Or in other words, whatever the writer needs to tell the story they want to tell.
     
  19. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    1. I'm not sure this is accurate.
    2. She's got Skywalker-class raw talent.
    3. Literally every Force user in the movie is like "The Force is acting weird."
    Why?
    Yoda lifts an X-Wing and throws senate pods with no exertion whatsoever. I don't think we can glean anything from Yoda's facial expression while he's catching those rocks about how easy it is for Yoda to lift rocks.
    Why don't you think that?
    This is pretty explicitly stated in the films.
    but you don't have to
    [​IMG]
    How?
    I guess I just took Yoda literally when he said there weren't any limitations on what you could do.
     
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  20. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2006
    Rey *is* special. If that isnt clear enough in TFA or TLJ, the TLJ novelization makes it pretty clear.

    Regarding the PT era Jedi. A while back Pablo had this tweet storm about how the Jedi of that era had, themselves, started taking a very almost mechanistic view of the Force and that contributed to them losing their way culminating in the rise of Sidious and Order 66. The old order did kind of game-ify their teaching. Their reliance on midi-chlorian counts to determine potential are a facet of that.

    By PT logic, Rey should have a high midi count.... but perhaps she doesnt. Perhaps she would have been passed over by the Council. The Cosmic Force has put Rey on the road she is on. Her potential didnt awaken until TFA, in response to Kylo's growing power if TLJ is any indication.

    Why do we stumble over Rey having uncanny ability with the Force, but no problems with Luke's very brief formal training time?

    I still infer that Rey learned staff fighting from a Force Church member from Tuanal. Someone who knew the Guardians of the Whills' zama-shiwo. She has exposure to legends of Luke, the Jedi and the Force plus martial arts. The main thing she needs is mental and spiritual training.

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  21. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    My problem with her "specialness" is that it's not interesting. She doesn't to work for it, to struggle, she's just better than anyone who came before within days of even learning that The Force is even a thing. And it kills any sort of tension because, well none of the baddies feel like a real threat to her.

    And it brings up a bigger problem that I have with how The Force is used now, it's turned into a Deus ex Machina superpower that the writers pull out whenever they write themselves into a corner. There's no need to train, to have any sort of philosophy, or viewpoint, etc. And the excuse of "the Force wants it to happen" is being overused to explain stuff in the ST (the Rey/Kylo nonsense being a prime example).

    Also I disagree that Luke set her on any kind of path, if anything he was in her way.
     
  22. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2006
    The entire point of TLJ was Rey learning that the Force isnt just some superpower. Rey certainly has uncanny facility with it. The connection between her abd Kylo im TFA opened that up for her. She didnt learn Jedi training or how to lift rocks from Luke, but that the Force isnt that at all. That it's about the interconnection of all things, and that the Jedi dont have a monopoly on it. Luke's lessons were all philosophy.

    Ironically, for how much you're complaining about the Force being used like a superpower, i think you're awfully hung up on the superpower aspect of it.

    Rey already knew the Force was a thing. I reitorate, she grew up hearing stories of Luke Skywalker and the Jedi. She grew up near an enclave of the Church of the Force on a planet with a Force nexus/well. She thought it was a superpower until Luke taught her about how much bigger it is than all of that.

    If the Force is a deus ex machina, it always has been. It does not, however, come out of nowhere to resolve anything. It's built into the universe, and therefore is internally consistent. The sudden appearance of the Eagles in both the Hobbit and Return of the King is a deus ex. The Force willing a person to be extra specially strong in it is not. Watching the films in numerical order, the Force having a will of its own and bringing a special child into the universe is one of the first things we learn about it. Can it be deus ex when it is part and parcel of the construction of the world the story inhabits?

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  23. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    I really don't think there's anything in the films to suggest this.
    For example?
    How so?
    How so?
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2018
  24. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    dp
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2018
  25. Vialco

    Vialco Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007
    I don't have much of an issue with Rey, she's actually my favorite character from the Sequels now. I will say that Rey's powers and abilities dwarf Luke's feats from the OT, which is why some people have a problem with her. I personally think Rey is the Second Chosen One. Chosen by the Force to wipe out Kylo and, indirectly, Snoke. Luke was never the Chosen One. The Force isn't with him after Anakin dies on the Death Star, it's why he takes decades to revive the Order and fails miserably. Luke wasn't the hero the Galaxy needed by 34 ABY and he knew this. We see some of that in the deleted scene for the Third Lesson. The hero the Galaxy needs is Rey. She's the one that can destroy Kylo and help bring the First Order down. She never needed Luke, and it took the events of The Last Jedi for her to realize that. She doesn't need anyone to show her what her place in the story is, she knows it in her heart.

    Rey's purpose in the story is stop evil men like Kylo Ren and to use her extraordinary powers to do what the Last Jedi wouldn't. Help the brave men and women of the Resistance and restore the Republic. It took me a while to understand why Luke didn't go and stop Snoke and Kylo. But I think I get it now, though this isn't the Luke Skywalker thread, so I'll stop here.
     
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